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jags_domain

Smoke to powerful or flat our broken????

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You mean the smoke I drop in my Yueyang, That Torp magnet stuff ?that if I drop before I’m detected announcers.. heh there’s a DD over dar and.. I’ll just shoot at it for fun.. believe me it ain’t the be all to end all and in my experience has not resulted in me doing a heck of a lot of damage on BBs ,Cruisers because I’m sitting all safe and happy unseen shooting at them, 

It seems the jig is up with players getting good at shooting at ships in smoke.. the technique is easily learned

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On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Compassghost said:

It’s smoke, not an island. You can shoot into it and kill things regardless of whether or not you can see it.

To be fair, I'm sure most people can't shoot into smoke for crap, I know I can't. (but I still try anyway, sometimes I get lucky)

But that still doesn't make me helpless. If I have torps, I can use them. I can charge the smoke, and the closer I get, the more it limits the enemy's spotting of me. I've also rammed my share of DDs in smoke with a larger ship. Or you can just angle to minimise the number of hits, leave any fires burning, and seek cover.

Smoke is only as bad as the OP claims if you try to operate as if it isn't there.

 

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4 hours ago, zarth12 said:

Sample size of one is useless in calculating trends. Sample size of one is worthless vs a Sample size of thousands.. hundreds of thousands..

Lowest performing ship type before Radar, Lowest performing ship type after Radar. That is server wide, all servers.
Single digit hit rate for torps before Radar, Single digit hit rate for torps after Radar.
Overpowered BBs before Radar, Overpowered BBs after Radar.

BBs overpowered? Yea right give me a break.

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18 minutes ago, Panic512 said:

BBs overpowered? Yea right give me a break.

Facts do not care about feelings.

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45 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

To be fair, I'm sure most people can't shoot into smoke for crap, I know I can't. (but I still try anyway, sometimes I get lucky)

But that still doesn't make me helpless. If I have torps, I can use them. I can charge the smoke, and the closer I get, the more it limits the enemy's spotting of me. I've also rammed my share of DDs in smoke with a larger ship. Or you can just angle to minimise the number of hits, leave any fires burning, and seek cover.

Smoke is only as bad as the OP claims if you try to operate as if it isn't there.

 

You watch the smoke close enough you can gauge where the ship is in there, and take shots at it and do damage.

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4 minutes ago, GrimmeReaper said:

You watch the smoke close enough you can gauge where the ship is in there, and take shots at it and do damage.

I've sunk ships sitting in smoke but it was by luck. I've wasted a lot of time shooting into smoke as well.  Good DD drivers are moving in their smoke screen.

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20 minutes ago, kgh52 said:

I've sunk ships sitting in smoke but it was by luck. I've wasted a lot of time shooting into smoke as well.  Good DD drivers are moving in their smoke screen.

I sank a Minotaur last night in my Mogami by shooting AP between where the endless stream of shells were coming from. Never actually saw him.

 

It's not by luck, it's about knowing what you're doing.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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On 8/18/2018 at 8:00 PM, jags_domain said:

Most of us cant do that

Take out a Mino and sit in smoke broadside to a bunch of reds and you'll see how many times players "get lucky".

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On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:54 PM, jags_domain said:

Perfict point!!!!!

A mino 7 km away smokes up and there is nothing you can do

A Minotaur gets detected in smoke at 5.4km when it is firing. There is plenty you can do. You can fire into the smoke at the location the shells are coming from, you can send torps into the smoke and force it out, or you can even charge the smoke and make it run.  Minotaur is very powerful but it is also super soft and easily damaged. If you get aggressive and push them they have to back off and run or die. Their shells don't do as much damage when you are bow on either as you bounce a lot or have the bow area saturated so they can't do more.

I don't play a ton of PVP but when I used to it was back in the OWSF days and before the smoke firing nerf. If you think it is tough now my friend you would probably quit back then. It is a lot better now. Back then you would get BBQ'd from out of nowhere as DD's and some Cruisers could stay on that edge of detection when firing and just spam you non stop and never show. Nothing you could do about it other than try to blind fire that way but it was much harder than firing into smoke. Before the smoke nerf any ship could sit in smoke and shoot and never be detected. Now at least BB's have such a huge smoke firing detection range it isn't worth them trying it. Cruiser's have pretty big smoke firing detection ranges too so you can get near smoke, vs get close to, and they become detected when shooting. Even DD's get detected before that magical 2km assured detection range.

The ships that have smoke need it to compete. It is not an all powerful cloak though. They are confined to the smoke circle so you know where they are in general if they are in it firing, they need someone outside the smoke to spot for them (unless they have hydro or radar but that would be short range and/or duration use), the smoke doesn't protect them from hits and any ship in smoke can be killed just like it can out in the open, and it is only useable for a short time with a reload period plus it has a limited number os uses.

Stealth torping is way more powerful than smoke.

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1 hour ago, GrimmeReaper said:

You watch the smoke close enough you can gauge where the ship is in there, and take shots at it and do damage.

That's the problem for me, gauging the height. (range) If I focus too much on squinting into the smoke (figuratively) I get blapped lol.

As I said though, not a big deal, I'm happy with my capability to cope with smoke.

I think some people have the impression that being able to deal with a mechanic means never being screwed over by it, when really, it doesn't matter how good you are at dealing, you'll still get worked over from time to time. And that's ok.

It's like fire. I don't usually have an issue with it, but sometimes circumstances are against you, and you burn to a crisp despite doing all the right things.

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2 hours ago, zarth12 said:

Facts do not care about feelings.

I've done this argument with you before on another post, but I will entertain it. Please point me to those facts that you speak of?

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27 minutes ago, Panic512 said:

I've done this argument with you before on another post, but I will entertain it. Please point me to those facts that you speak of?

Yes, and just like those other *threads*, you were refuted, refused to admit it and thought moving the goal posts constantly had any effect on truth. The *facts* are already in this thread, you even quoted them. Just as you ignored the *evidence* posted in those other *threads*, you ignore the *facts* now.
 

Quote

Sample size of one is useless in calculating trends. Sample size of one is worthless vs a Sample size of thousands.. hundreds of thousands..

Lowest performing ship type before Radar, Lowest performing ship type after Radar. That is server wide, all servers.
Single digit hit rate for torps before Radar, Single digit hit rate for torps after Radar.
Overpowered BBs before Radar, Overpowered BBs after Radar.



The whole "if I close my eyes the monsters will go away" ideology is quite amusing.
 

Edited by zarth12

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On 8/18/2018 at 10:04 AM, jags_domain said:

All the complaining abour radar it tine to talk about smoke being broken! You want to talk about the reality of radar lets talk the realailty of smoke.

How is it that a dd sitting in smoke and can majiclty see perfectly out of it when another is spotting? How come dd can shoot planes down in smoke and the plane cant see them? Why does smoke last for 2 min and covers for the entire map and you cant see them untill your 3 km or so away.

Smoke is Increably broken. It hides you from the entire map but magical you can see perfictly out of it when somthing is spotted.

A DD should not be able to shoot planes down without being seen. DD should not be able to see ships out of the smoke even if there spoted without being seen them selves.

DD players you have complaned to much and for to long. You want "real radar" then we need real smoke. You cant shoot at anything without revealing your self. You cant shoot at planes without being spotted.

Eather stop complaing or we fix the broken smoke meta.

There a a handful of tutorials on how to hit ships inside smoke on youtube. It works on Royal Navy Cruisers and also works on Destroyers. It's on you to go find the info or figure it out. Smoke doesn't hide you from the entire map nor does it magically make you invulnerable to return fire by any means. That's nonsense and only works in low tiers where players are far more likely to panic when they see a smoke cloud.

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30 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

Yes, and just like those other *threads*, you were refuted, refused to admit it and thought moving the goal posts constantly had any effect on truth. The *facts* are already in this thread, you even quoted them. Just as you ignored the *evidence* posted in those other *threads*, you ignore the *facts* now.
 



The whole "if I close my eyes the monsters will go away" ideology is quite amusing.
 

That last sentence makes absolutely no sense in regards to your arguments. I understand there are things broken in the game, but smoke is definitely not one of them.

You cannot make the claim that the destroyer is the lowest performing class across all servers, because you don't have the actual data to back up that assumption. WG won't release that data to us because they use it to determine if are working properly. But, you will come back and point me to individual destroyer statistics that will be lower than battleship or cruiser statistics on a single ship and tell me that they are facts. Yea for single ships they are, but for the overall class they aren't. You can't compare ship types such as battleships or cruisers on their average performance across the servers to destroyers for a few reasons. Destroyers have low caliber guns and mainly rely on torpedoes, which most players will follow the guide line on and miss entirely. Battleships and Cruisers have higher caliber guns and have a fairly short reload before they are able to fire again. This means that in terms of main battery damage per minute, battleships and cruisers are able to do higher amounts of damage consistently, whereas the american 127mm USN DD guns for example won't do very much compared to them.

The reason the destroyer as a class has the lowest performance is because it is a high skill ceiling class that most average and good players don't understand how to effectively use, its as simple as that.

Your claim that battleships are overpowered before and after radar are quite ridiculous considering with that only one battleship in the game actually has radar to use and that being the Missouri.

Lastly, please explain how I have the "If I close my eyes the monsters will go away" ideology?

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1 hour ago, Panic512 said:

That last sentence makes absolutely no sense in regards to your arguments. I understand there are things broken in the game, but smoke is definitely not one of them.

You cannot make the claim that the destroyer is the lowest performing class across all servers, because you don't have the actual data to back up that assumption. WG won't release that data to us because they use it to determine if are working properly. But, you will come back and point me to individual destroyer statistics that will be lower than battleship or cruiser statistics on a single ship and tell me that they are facts. Yea for single ships they are, but for the overall class they aren't. You can't compare ship types such as battleships or cruisers on their average performance across the servers to destroyers for a few reasons. Destroyers have low caliber guns and mainly rely on torpedoes, which most players will follow the guide line on and miss entirely. Battleships and Cruisers have higher caliber guns and have a fairly short reload before they are able to fire again. This means that in terms of main battery damage per minute, battleships and cruisers are able to do higher amounts of damage consistently, whereas the american 127mm USN DD guns for example won't do very much compared to them.

The reason the destroyer as a class has the lowest performance is because it is a high skill ceiling class that most average and good players don't understand how to effectively use, its as simple as that.

Your claim that battleships are overpowered before and after radar are quite ridiculous considering with that only one battleship in the game actually has radar to use and that being the Missouri.

Lastly, please explain how I have the "If I close my eyes the monsters will go away" ideology?

A.) I never said Smoke is broken.

B.) I can most certainly claim that destroyer is the lowest performing ship type across all servers because I *DO* have the actual data. Sorry, but an appeal to authority doesn't work on me. I don't need "WG to release the data to us". You further simply admit that you do not even understand the basics of statistics and data analytics. With the data of single destroyers I can combine them and calculate a trend, just as I can do the same with ALL ship types. So yes, as an overall ship type, they are the lowest performing compared to the other ship types. The rest of your post here is just subjective and worthless. My claim is proven objectively. You can believe the world is flat all you want, I cannot stop you, nor do I really care if that is your belief. The truth says otherwise. Just like the *truth* is, torpedoes have had a single digit hit rate trend for the entire ship type since the game was playable at any stage.

C.) Additionally, you go on to contradict yourself. Claiming that destroyers cannot be claimed as lowest performing ship type, and then go on to claim that "The reason the destroyer as a class has the lowest performance because.."... lol You flip flop like a politician. First of all, Destroyer is not a *class*. It is a type, or archetype in general gaming terms. You further go on to make clear your ignorance as to how skill floor and ceiling even work in the first place. Skill floor+ceiling is relative to risk vs reward.
This is a required but sometimes unpopular drawback of having a game where different archetypes have different skill floor+ceilings..... is that it is comparable to someone who starts weight lifting. A low skill floor+low skill ceiling archetype (like BBs), in a logically and objectively balanced game, will be like going to the gym, starting with low weights and packing on heavier weights as you get stronger... but quickly get to a point where this gym for whatever reason has no more weights that are heavy enough for you. A high skill floor+ceiling archetype is like going to a gym where the lowest weight they have is already high, but their maximum weight to work with is MUCH higher than the previous gym. 


Thus in a game that is logically and objectively balanced, the higher skill floor+ceiling archetype played by a skilled enough player will output performance well beyond the capability of the lower skill floor +ceiling archetype. Risk vs Reward. As it is quantitatively attributed for BBs to have reliably the slowest incoming TTK, for it to be balanced they must also have reliably the slowest outgoing TTK. As well as DDs which are quantitatively attributed to have reliably the FASTEST incoming TTK, for it to be balanced they must also have reliably the FASTEST outgoing TTK. Welcome to Balance 101. Key word is also "reliably", and the DDs are not only unreliable in all facets but do not even have the fastest outgoing TTK possible. Also claiming that DDs somehow are simply such low performance because they are too difficult to play is also fallacious. That equates to NO-ONE that plays the game is capable enough, as the leaderboards not only prove this but also prove that the balance in regards to Skill floor+ceiling is completely broken, but Risk vs Reward as well. The top skill grouping on the Leaderboards for DDs still have LOWER performance in comparison to the top skill grouping for BBs...  If the high skill floor+ceiling archetype, in WoWs case...DDs....just like any game...does not have a chunk of performance at which is higher than the lower skill floor+ceiling archetypes...then that means there is ZERO reason to have that higher skill floor archetype in your game to begin with... in which case there is ZERO reason to have different skill floor archetypes in your game to begin with. That would mean that the lower skill floor archetype is a DIRECT upgrade and MORE competitive choice compared to the higher skill floor choice. Why put in more risk if there is less chance of reward? Why put in more risk if there is no chance of higher reward? Why put in more effort? Why would skill matter in the first place in when there is no impacting output difference? 

D.) Another logical fallacy. I did claim that Radar is game-breaking. I did claim that BBs are overpowered (and have been since 2015). I never claimed that BBs were overpowered because of Radar, I never claimed correlation equals causation. YOU DID, within your very own Straw Man.
BBs are overpowered, and their performance is evidentiary of this. It is further supported by their Risk vs Reward. The specific link in the chain that causes this deviation from balanced performance is their accuracy, which is the root cause to the imbalance when taken into context of their other attributes and the quantitative buffers they provide therein.

Source Cited: https://na.wows-numbers.com/ships/
Source Cited: http://www.wowstats.org/ships/
Source Cited: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/shipstats/index.html
Source Cited: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759355930
Source Cited: https://imgur.com/gallery/is1HaKn

/Checkmate

Edited by zarth12
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Please explain to me how battleships are overpowered? I am curious. Is this based on your "accurate" stats?

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1 minute ago, Panic512 said:

Please explain to me how battleships are overpowered? I am curious. Is this based on your "accurate" stats?

This was explained and stats were provided. 

 

Quote

Lastly, please explain how I have the "If I close my eyes the monsters will go away" ideology?

You just admitted to having it

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1 minute ago, zarth12 said:

This was explained and stats were provided. 

 

You just admitted to having it

I'm sorry, it wasn't explained and the stats for battleships weren't provided to back up your claims they are overpowered. But please why don't you run it by me again since you never mentioned before this post.

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49 minutes ago, Panic512 said:

Please explain to me how battleships are overpowered? I am curious. Is this based on your "accurate" stats?

Zarth is saying with the low skill floor that BBs have, their skill ceiling is too high.  The proof is in the fact that BBs have as high, or higher performance in the top end of the performance curve than the other ship types (with higher skill floors).  If the game was objectively balanced BBs should have a much lower skill ceiling, since they have, by far, the lowest skill floor.  Since BBs perform as well as all other ships types, not only at the top end, but also the entire skill curve, they would be considered overpowered from the perspective of an objectively balanced game.

You may not like Zarth for the way he presents his arguments, but they are almost always sound.  In this case the skill floor/ceiling argument is solid.  We can prove that by looking at almost every game that uses a varying skill floor balance structure. 

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27 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Zarth is saying with the low skill floor that BBs have, their skill ceiling is too high.  The proof is in the fact that BBs have as high, or higher performance in the top end of the performance curve than the other ship types (with higher skill floors).  If the game was objectively balanced BBs should have a much lower skill ceiling, since they have, by far, the lowest skill floor.  Since BBs perform as well as all other ships types, not only at the top end, but also the entire skill curve, they would be considered overpowered from the perspective of an objectively balanced game.

You may not like Zarth for the way he presents his arguments, but they are almost always sound.  In this case the skill floor/ceiling argument is solid.  We can prove that by looking at almost every game that uses a varying skill floor balance structure. 

Actually no, but close. That is not exactly how ceiling works.

DDs are high skill floor and high skill ceiling. BBs are low skill floor and low skill ceiling. However the Risk vs Reward, and Input vs Output is highly broken.

A ship can be high skill ceiling and yet be outperformed by a low skill ceiling ship (in a game with broken balance). Skill ceiling represents the maximum point in which skill can effect impact and carry. However the maximum performance, the maximum carry that archetype can have can still be lower than a lower skill ceiling archetype( again, in a game with broken balance only). We see this in the Leaderboards.

DDs are like professional skating and BBs are like racing 1/4 mile in an Automatic Dodge Challenger.   Takes more skill to not only skate at a basic level, but the skill range is massive. However a professional skater will never be able to go as fast as a Dodge Challenger nor beat it in any race.

https://imgur.com/gallery/is1HaKn

Edited by zarth12

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10 hours ago, KiyoSenkan said:

I sank a Minotaur last night in my Mogami by shooting AP between where the endless stream of shells were coming from. Never actually saw him.

 

It's not by luck, it's about knowing what you're doing.

I say it is luck but good players improve their luck. Poor adversaries also improves your luck.

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3 hours ago, zarth12 said:

Actually no, but close. That is not exactly how ceiling works.

DDs are high skill floor and high skill ceiling. BBs are low skill floor and low skill ceiling. However the Risk vs Reward, and Input vs Output is highly broken.

A ship can be high skill ceiling and yet be outperformed by a low skill ceiling ship (in a game with broken balance). Skill ceiling represents the maximum point in which skill can effect impact and carry. However the maximum performance, the maximum carry that archetype can have can still be lower than a lower skill ceiling archetype( again, in a game with broken balance only). We see this in the Leaderboards.

DDs are like professional skating and BBs are like racing 1/4 mile in an Automatic Dodge Challenger.   Takes more skill to not only skate at a basic level, but the skill range is massive. However a professional skater will never be able to go as fast as a Dodge Challenger nor beat it in any race.

https://imgur.com/gallery/is1HaKn

I don't think that is quite a good analogy for what your comparing, but I'm not arguing that it takes more skill to play a destroyer at a basic understandable level. I completely agree that it does. So what you are saying is that a skilled destroyer player will get beaten by a lesser skilled battleship player because they are in the battleship?

So what your saying is that dds take more skill to perform at a basic level but also take more skill to perform at a higher level, whereas a bb will take less skill to perform at a basic level and also to perform well in the them.

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20 hours ago, kgh52 said:

I've sunk ships sitting in smoke but it was by luck. I've wasted a lot of time shooting into smoke as well.  Good DD drivers are moving in their smoke screen.

A ship that gets blapped in smoke is asking to be blapped.

 

If you get blapped in smoke you did the equivalent of a bb driving in a straight line and eating six torps.

 

Stupid gets punished; but if you're relying on the other guy being dumber than you you've already screwed up.

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11 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

Zarth is saying with the low skill floor that BBs have, their skill ceiling is too high.  The proof is in the fact that BBs have as high, or higher performance in the top end of the performance curve than the other ship types (with higher skill floors).  If the game was objectively balanced BBs should have a much lower skill ceiling, since they have, by far, the lowest skill floor.  Since BBs perform as well as all other ships types, not only at the top end, but also the entire skill curve, they would be considered overpowered from the perspective of an objectively balanced game.

You may not like Zarth for the way he presents his arguments, but they are almost always sound.  In this case the skill floor/ceiling argument is solid.  We can prove that by looking at almost every game that uses a varying skill floor balance structure. 

The issue isn't that bbs have a high skill ceiling; bbs actually have an extremely low skill ceiling.  A top bb player can do less than a top dd player.

 

The problem is that the bb skill ceiling is below the dd skill floor.

 

This means that your average bb player will perform better than your average dd player.  The bb player will be performing within the parameters of his ship, but the dd player will be performing below the parameters of his ship.

 

The result is that your average dd player will accomplish very little while your average bb player will be average.

 

But again, at the top levels of play, the best dd players will do more than the best bb players since the skill ceiling of the bb is capped out below the skill ceiling of a dd.

 

It's the same dynamic as cv.  A bad CV will perform worse than anyone else because he's playing below the skill ceiling.  But a good CV driver will outperform everyone else because his ships skill ceiling is so much higher than everyone else.

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