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jags_domain

Smoke to powerful or flat our broken????

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29 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

Perfict point!!!!!

A mino 7 km away smokes up and there is nothing you can do

A mino 7km away in smoke is an incredibly easy kill for any bb.

Is this trolling?

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9 minutes ago, Ajax_the_Great1 said:

A mino 7km away in smoke is an incredibly easy kill for any bb.

Is this trolling?

I’m wondering the exact same thing....

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Smoke is useless for offense and almost useless, period. 

Can't use it in caps anymore, as Cruisers have rocks to hide behind well within range of entire caps on the majority of maps. IF you do, without hydro, there's torps. If not torps, there's the new aiming circle on the minimap. IF you're an IJN or KM DD, yer fekkered because you can't make a cloud big enough to move around in.

Nope, Smoke is only consistently good for breaking LoS. Stay in it and die. Fire outside of it and die.

That leaves torps. With the 7% hit rate. Any other main battery out ther ehave a two minute reload AND a 7% hit rate? Let me help there: No. It's even lower if you follow the "advice" to "torp from outside radar range". I watched a Flamu video on the Z-46? TIX KM DD? On that map with the four small caps. He tried the entire game along with multiple team mates, to take "C" cap, failed and lost the game. He noted repeatedly that it was kept locked down by a single New Orleans with radar. If a Flamu can't do it, what hope do the rest of us have? Is the game for the elites? Is DD play too hard even for them, at times? 

I lost a half % in WR after the USN cruiser line split and am only now working my way back to where I was. The challenge now is to play like all you have is your low detectability. Take the firing pins out of the guns (except for those instances when you KNOW you can fire and not be detected - and we have an abundance of those opportunities, right?), rely on your torps, stay out of caps unless you have reliable back up (Ha!), and stay alive til the end game. IF the low skill floor ships haven't screwed it up too badly, you have a shot at making a contribution. Most of the time, you're along for the ride.

I play most of my games now in the upper tier PA DDs, with radar rather than smoke. it really focuses the mind as that "T" button won't save you. I'm doing ok. WR is coming back up slowly, but damage and XP are all over the map.

DDs didn't need any of this, you know. KW is the only DD main I know that has continued to operate normally in this meta. The rest of us are struggling. DDs were the lowest class statistically in all major categories BEFORE radar. WTfek did we do to deserve this?

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The majority of the time I see a DD camping in smoke rather than using it to retreat ends badly for the DD.

That said, I dont like how smoke has evolved as a mechanism for DDs to pummel BBs with rapid fire HE with impunity. I sympathize with the plight of mid and higher tier DDs in this game, but strongly disagree that is an appropriate balancing mechanism. For that reason I've always thought shorter smoke durations but quicker cooldowns and more smoke consumables would better balance things.

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Is this guy serious? Smoke was nerf’d into a near useless state. Only good for running away. 

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1 hour ago, Scotty_SE said:

The majority of the time I see a DD camping in smoke rather than using it to retreat ends badly for the DD.

That said, I dont like how smoke has evolved as a mechanism for DDs to pummel BBs with rapid fire HE with impunity. I sympathize with the plight of mid and higher tier DDs in this game, but strongly disagree that is an appropriate balancing mechanism. For that reason I've always thought shorter smoke durations but quicker cooldowns and more smoke consumables would better balance things.

That's what the KM DDs and PA DDs have. it's useless. And no one has "a mechanism for DDs to pummel BBs with rapid fire HE with impunity". Radar and that aiming circle thingy make the ability to fire from smoke for any duration highly situational. 

Think about what you're saying. How much damage do you think that DD is doing? Think about how much of that damage will get healed? People rail against torps, too, because they get delivered from stealth. People don't like getting hit from stealth. I get that. But what else is there for DDs? No health, no armor. Not enough speed even in 45kt+ ships to make people miss. Smoke doesn't work. Radar is everywhere. Seriously, WTAF are DDs supposed to do? Play BBs? I'd rather play BattleTech.

You've got a lot of games in DDs and do well in them. I would suggest grinding up to T8 or buy a Lo Yang or Kidd and see the elephant through a DD main's eyes, and then tell us if your opinion has changed. The view really is different.

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20 hours ago, jags_domain said:

Most of us cant do that

Minotaur is the easiest out of everything to blind shoot in this game(all you need is a spotter plane). Play Minotaur, smoke up and sit still, and see how many BBs will eat you alive in smoke if you don't try to juke. Only the players with the worst winrates can't do that. That's my experience when I grind through my RN CL line a year ago, any half decent BB player can delete me if I am careless, even in smoke and undetected.

But more than that, majority of premature deaths of DDs and CLs 3 minutes into the game is due to them thinking they are safe in smoke just as you do, then gets crippled heavily or killed by torpedoes.

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21 hours ago, jags_domain said:

Perfict point!!!!!

A mino 7 km away smokes up and there is nothing you can do

Except firing into the smoke. I learned how to use a spotter plane from Flamu vids for just such occasions. Works well. Now they have put the targeting thing on the minimap and it's even easier. But hold out for WG to put in another "easy button". Maybe one day the game will be dumbed down enough for everybody.

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7 hours ago, Thornir said:

That's what the KM DDs and PA DDs have. it's useless. And no one has "a mechanism for DDs to pummel BBs with rapid fire HE with impunity". Radar and that aiming circle thingy make the ability to fire from smoke for any duration highly situational. 

Think about what you're saying. How much damage do you think that DD is doing? Think about how much of that damage will get healed? People rail against torps, too, because they get delivered from stealth. People don't like getting hit from stealth. I get that. But what else is there for DDs? No health, no armor. Not enough speed even in 45kt+ ships to make people miss. Smoke doesn't work. Radar is everywhere. Seriously, WTAF are DDs supposed to do? Play BBs? I'd rather play BattleTech.

You've got a lot of games in DDs and do well in them. I would suggest grinding up to T8 or buy a Lo Yang or Kidd and see the elephant through a DD main's eyes, and then tell us if your opinion has changed. The view really is different.

I play dd once and awhile and deal with radar. But have t4-t7 there is no radar and most games now are 3 radars max. You will say that alot but there will be 6 ships with smoke.

My main reason for the post is the constaint complaint from dd. From a crusier prospective smoke it to strong. At least fir us and Russian ships we can do somthing about it at close range but German UK and French have no defence.

Every side its arguments and smoke had a kind of nerf but not really it did not effect dd to any real effect.

I am suggesting if you nerf radar then smoke needs a nerf as well.

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2 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

I play dd once and awhile and deal with radar. But have t4-t7 there is no radar and most games now are 3 radars max. You will say that alot but there will be 6 ships with smoke.

My main reason for the post is the constaint complaint from dd. From a crusier prospective smoke it to strong. At least fir us and Russian ships we can do somthing about it at close range but German UK and French have no defence.

Every side its arguments and smoke had a kind of nerf but not really it did not effect dd to any real effect.

I am suggesting if you nerf radar then smoke needs a nerf as well.

The complaints won't stop. The game is out of balance. You say you play dds, but I am not inclined to take you at your word. Those of us that play them regularly and at high tiers see the difference radar has caused in the game. DDs did the least damage of all classes at all tiers BEFORE radar. So, there was plenty of "defense". 

The nerf to smoke and the addition of the aiming circle on the minimap, along with radar, have made smoke useless. Again, if you played them, you'd know that.

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On 8/18/2018 at 12:34 PM, BigJohnsonLogan said:

Smoke and radar are both broken.  Ships seeing out of smoke is broken, radar going through islands is broken.

The Developers claim it's a "game engine limitation, I believe it's a "game developer" limitation.

 

This is true, early videos from the "game developers" clearly stated when they first considered making this game, they had to choose "play ability" over "reality" and they have consistently chosen to continue with "arcade game" physics in all Wargaming games. World Of Tanks is also an "arcade game with broken physics" cause that is more "fun" and "profitable" for Wargaming.

 

This game has had changes over the years, but it will always be an "arcade game" based "vaguely" on  "reality".

Why on this Playlist is there no video for How Smoke Works or How Radar Works.. because they would need to explain how broken the game mechanics really are .. 

 

The reason why there is no video explaining how smoke or radar work is because the mechanic of how they work in regards to gameplay is so simple that it would waste videos doing so.

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11 hours ago, Thornir said:

Smoke is useless for offense and almost useless, period. 

Can't use it in caps anymore, as Cruisers have rocks to hide behind well within range of entire caps on the majority of maps. IF you do, without hydro, there's torps. If not torps, there's the new aiming circle on the minimap. IF you're an IJN or KM DD, yer fekkered because you can't make a cloud big enough to move around in.

Nope, Smoke is only consistently good for breaking LoS. Stay in it and die. Fire outside of it and die.

That leaves torps. With the 7% hit rate. Any other main battery out ther ehave a two minute reload AND a 7% hit rate? Let me help there: No. It's even lower if you follow the "advice" to "torp from outside radar range". I watched a Flamu video on the Z-46? TIX KM DD? On that map with the four small caps. He tried the entire game along with multiple team mates, to take "C" cap, failed and lost the game. He noted repeatedly that it was kept locked down by a single New Orleans with radar. If a Flamu can't do it, what hope do the rest of us have? Is the game for the elites? Is DD play too hard even for them, at times? 

I lost a half % in WR after the USN cruiser line split and am only now working my way back to where I was. The challenge now is to play like all you have is your low detectability. Take the firing pins out of the guns (except for those instances when you KNOW you can fire and not be detected - and we have an abundance of those opportunities, right?), rely on your torps, stay out of caps unless you have reliable back up (Ha!), and stay alive til the end game. IF the low skill floor ships haven't screwed it up too badly, you have a shot at making a contribution. Most of the time, you're along for the ride.

I play most of my games now in the upper tier PA DDs, with radar rather than smoke. it really focuses the mind as that "T" button won't save you. I'm doing ok. WR is coming back up slowly, but damage and XP are all over the map.

DDs didn't need any of this, you know. KW is the only DD main I know that has continued to operate normally in this meta. The rest of us are struggling. DDs were the lowest class statistically in all major categories BEFORE radar. WTfek did we do to deserve this?

You couldnt be farther from the truth. Destroyers such as PA and US high tier dds are meant to not only use torps but guns as well. There is nothing wrong with being detected in a dd, you just have to make sure your in a favorable position to do so.

Im not struggling in this meta at all playing my dds and if you want evidence of it go check my dds stats.

I feel as though you maybe need to focus on your dd gameplay if you think your argument is true.

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Well if DD's have no cover from smoke, why not take away their guns and torps too? Better yet, just have them blow up at the start of the battle and save the minute they could survive. 

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5 hours ago, Panic512 said:

You couldnt be farther from the truth. Destroyers such as PA and US high tier dds are meant to not only use torps but guns as well. There is nothing wrong with being detected in a dd, you just have to make sure your in a favorable position to do so.

Im not struggling in this meta at all playing my dds and if you want evidence of it go check my dds stats.

I feel as though you maybe need to focus on your dd gameplay if you think your argument is true.

Sample size of one is useless in calculating trends. Sample size of one is worthless vs a Sample size of thousands.. hundreds of thousands..

Lowest performing ship type before Radar, Lowest performing ship type after Radar. That is server wide, all servers.
Single digit hit rate for torps before Radar, Single digit hit rate for torps after Radar.
Overpowered BBs before Radar, Overpowered BBs after Radar.

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5 hours ago, Panic512 said:

You couldnt be farther from the truth. Destroyers such as PA and US high tier dds are meant to not only use torps but guns as well. There is nothing wrong with being detected in a dd, you just have to make sure your in a favorable position to do so.

Im not struggling in this meta at all playing my dds and if you want evidence of it go check my dds stats.

I feel as though you maybe need to focus on your dd gameplay if you think your argument is true.

See post #64. 

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Interesting, I consider smoke to be no where near as useful as it used to be, especially above T7 games.  Am starting to think about forgoing it on some of my DDs and maybe a couple RN Cruisers.

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I still don't like the invisible ship thing, a couple weeks ago I came across a couple of ships a few km away, not in smoke, firing at me and still invisible, like it used to be.  Went back to co-ops for a while I just can't stand that.  Luckily have not seen it again.

I like that mini map of where the shells are going to land.  In a co-op you can fire rounds where you think they may be at the beginning of the battle.  You will find them sooner by being detected.  Works great.

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On 8/18/2018 at 3:35 PM, Compassghost said:

Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean you can’t kill it.

 

 

It’s smoke, not an island. You can shoot into it and kill things regardless of whether or not you can see it.

When you have to rely on your opponent being stupid and sitting still in smoke to kill it... That's not balancing.

 

If your game plan can be summed up as "let's hope the other guy is dumb" there's a problem.

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On 8/18/2018 at 8:23 PM, Ajax_the_Great1 said:

A mino 7km away in smoke is an incredibly easy kill for any bb.

Is this trolling?

Correction... A stupid Mino sitting still, broadside on, ripple firing in smoke is an easy kill for any bb.

 

A Mino that's smart and staggers shots and is constantly going forward and reversing and not sitting broadside in his smoke is only killed by the bb getting lucky.

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32 minutes ago, Dartinbullets said:

I still don't like the invisible ship thing, a couple weeks ago I came across a couple of ships a few km away, not in smoke, firing at me and still invisible, like it used to be.  Went back to co-ops for a while I just can't stand that.  Luckily have not seen it again.

I like that mini map of where the shells are going to land.  In a co-op you can fire rounds where you think they may be at the beginning of the battle.  You will find them sooner by being detected.  Works great.

I know right. 
I was in my DD the other day and activated my jet engines which managed to lift me out of the water. Unfortunately because I was unable to control the ship I rammed into 2 enemies and 1 friendly. Was a sight to be seen. Especially with all of the lasers flying around.

Oh you were being serious? I thought we were playing jeopardy and the topic was "Hyperboles, Lying, and things that are impossible"

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1 hour ago, GrimmeReaper said:

Interesting, I consider smoke to be no where near as useful as it used to be, especially above T7 games.  Am starting to think about forgoing it on some of my DDs and maybe a couple RN Cruisers.

If you have the PA DDs, try them with radar instead of smoke. Build them for torps though; you won't be using your guns much. Oh wait, same as now. NM. :Smile_teethhappy:

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56 minutes ago, Shadeylark said:

When you have to rely on your opponent being stupid and sitting still in smoke to kill it... That's not balancing.

 

If your game plan can be summed up as "let's hope the other guy is dumb" there's a problem.

 

A moving ship in smoke is not hard to hit either, ripple fire or not. If anything, it’s indicative that smoke is much weaker than islands, because at least islands can block projectiles.

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On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 1:54 PM, jags_domain said:

That makes no scents. You cant target a dd in smoke but you can target a ship behind an island. 

So deal with smoke being broken.

Because nobody can see the DD, it can't be targetted.

The DD can shoot you, because ine of his teammates has you spotted. If one of his teammates has you spotted, the DD can spot you whether he's in smoke, behind an island, or 25km away. It's all the same.

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On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 1:56 PM, jags_domain said:

I can be 7km away from a dd in smoke and not see it but it can see me perfectly with no down side. That is broken.

 

You can be 7km away from a DD on the other side of an island, and it can see you perfectly. You can have a concealment value of 5km, and a DD 7km away can shoot you.

You're not being spotted by him, you're being spotted by his teammates.

It works both ways, except you can't be spotted by anyone in smoke, unless somebody is close enough.

If none of his teammates are spotting you, the DD in smoke can't see you either.

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