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Asym_KS

Frigates as High Speed Litoral Bonus ships

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I've been wondering where the Frigates were?

image.png.a1affd7beec277ab5500206a678ec03b.png

USS Abercrombiie.  DE-343. 

If I were WG, I'd take this class of ship and make them very high speed (+45K w/o speed boost), shallow water (they could go where anyone no one else could) anti-DD ships armed with rapid firing flat trajectory deck guns, very fast 9K torps, shallow draft that can avoid conventional torps, and radar limiting smoke....   A counter to hidden radar ships....

Like an upgraded PT/Eboat....  Like the DD's that really act like CL's.....

Again, this would be a developers dream assignment:   giving each nation a Frigate class with unique attributes that combine speed, maneuverability, shallow water, stealth, anti-radar capabilities, dangerous weapons and being incredibly fragile in close contact.

Thoughts?

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Sounds like a DD on steroids...what about detection? How do you balance it?

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Your example picture is a 2 gun 5 torpedo boat....

Likely has Benson torps... 

I would love to see DE in game..

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Yep, a two gun; 5 high speed torp;  littoral shallow water designed; high acceleration speeds; higly maneuverable, small and stealthy:  accounter hiding and radar combatant.

Balance: 4K detection and this DE's are super fragile.....  You get ID'd and all you can do is run like smoke and oakum.....  Hit smoke which washes out radar, jink and do the Fabuki dance, and pray....  4 or 5 secondary hits and you're done....  radar won't see you until 4 K (which is inside of most secondary weapons effective ranges.)   get caught and, well, ooooops.....you died.

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27 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

I've been wondering where the Frigates were?

image.png.a1affd7beec277ab5500206a678ec03b.png

USS Abercrombiie.  DE-343. 

If I were WG, I'd take this class of ship and make them very high speed (+45K w/o speed boost), shallow water (they could go where anyone no one else could) anti-DD ships armed with rapid firing flat trajectory deck guns, very fast 9K torps, shallow draft that can avoid conventional torps, and radar limiting smoke....   A counter to hidden radar ships....

Like an upgraded PT/Eboat....  Like the DD's that really act like CL's.....

Again, this would be a developers dream assignment:   giving each nation a Frigate class with unique attributes that combine speed, maneuverability, shallow water, stealth, anti-radar capabilities, dangerous weapons and being incredibly fragile in close contact.

Thoughts?

1. "Frigates" are a TYPE of ship, not a CLASS of ship.

2. WW2 Frigates were convoy escorts.  Essentially, slightly larger corvettes.  "Frigate" and "corvette" were RN and Commonwealth terms for these convoy escorts.  The USN called them "Destroyer Escorts" (DE).  But regardless of the name, they were SLOW ships, only barely faster than the freighters they escorted.  And they mostly existed for anti-submarine work.

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Would be nice for DEs to come in the game essentially a line of tier 1 cruisers or Katories through I believe WG won't have anything smaller than a full fledge DD come into a game or at least player operated.

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13 minutes ago, Crucis said:

1. "Frigates" are a TYPE of ship, not a CLASS of ship.

2. WW2 Frigates were convoy escorts.  Essentially, slightly larger corvettes.  "Frigate" and "corvette" were RN and Commonwealth terms for these convoy escorts.  The USN called them "Destroyer Escorts" (DE).  But regardless of the name, they were SLOW ships, only barely faster than the freighters they escorted.  And they mostly existed for anti-submarine work.

Yes, you are correct....  But, as you yourself have pointed out over and over again, this is a game....  OK, reality is suspended and we create a small, high speed, stealthy and really fragile surface combatant to counter hiding and radar ships...

Get seen.........mostly, you die.  Don't get seen and those Cruiser sitting alone behind an island camping and farming, safe within their radar dome of invincibility, get wiped out with a good DE CPT....   

Yes, class or type, I get that and again, I'm innovating within the genre of a game in contravention to historical accuracy....     A new product that is a very small meta to counter a much larger meta and expand sales in the era of ships we operate.

I'd "buy" a DE as I've envisioned it.  My clan mates would buy a DE once offered as I've envisioned it (of course a few are sub jocks.....)   And, I am sure, a lot of others would love to take a high speed nightmare into shallow or hard to transverse areas in direct radar contact and surprise the ever living crap out of campers hiding in the back.   

The balance is DE's would be fragile; a one touch ship....  Long torpedo reloading times (3 minutes with no ability to speed it up).  And, with all of their meta capabilities, lower scores for failure...... 

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9 minutes ago, Rolkatsuki said:

Would be nice for DEs to come in the game essentially a line of tier 1 cruisers or Katories through I believe WG won't have anything smaller than a full fledge DD come into a game or at least player operated.

There's no point to player playable DEs in this game.  A DE's job was to protect its convoy (usually a convoy of merchant ships, but not always) from submarine attacks, and a bit less so from air attacks.  It seems to me that the only way you'd see DE's in WoWS would be as convoy escorts in an operation.  And even then, they'd be truly pathetic against full fledged, player-controlled warships.

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

There's no point to player playable DEs in this game.  A DE's job was to protect its convoy (usually a convoy of merchant ships, but not always) from submarine attacks, and a bit less so from air attacks.  It seems to me that the only way you'd see DE's in WoWS would be as convoy escorts in an operation.  And even then, they'd be truly pathetic against full fledged, player-controlled warships.

Oh please.....  Ye of so little faith !!!  Suspend history......it happens every day in WoWs....  Let's get giggy with hiders and campers and static radar farmers; at, the same time, boosting sales and expanding and opening up game play !!!

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1 hour ago, Asym_KS said:

Yes, you are correct....  But, as you yourself have pointed out over and over again, this is a game....  OK, reality is suspended and we create a small, high speed, stealthy and really fragile surface combatant to counter hiding and radar ships...

Get seen.........mostly, you die.  Don't get seen and those Cruiser sitting alone behind an island camping and farming, safe within their radar dome of invincibility, get wiped out with a good DE CPT....   

Yes, class or type, I get that and again, I'm innovating within the genre of a game in contravention to historical accuracy....     A new product that is a very small meta to counter a much larger meta and expand sales in the era of ships we operate.

I'd "buy" a DE as I've envisioned it.  My clan mates would buy a DE once offered as I've envisioned it (of course a few are sub jocks.....)   And, I am sure, a lot of others would love to take a high speed nightmare into shallow or hard to transverse areas in direct radar contact and supersize the ever living crap out of campers hiding in the back.   

The balance is DE's would be fragile; a one touch ship....  Long torpedo reloading times (3 minutes with no ability to speed it up).  And, with all of their meta capabilities, lower scores for failure...... 

You're going so far outside the bounds of history that it's rather unacceptable.  By your reasoning, why not have 30" guns, 500ktonne displacement, 50kt battleships?  Why not have helicarriers?  At some point, history needs to be honored, even when making fictional ships, like, say, the Dallas.  (Actually, I'm not entirely sure if the Dallas is 100% fictional or was based on some USN design study that was never used.)  Even the fictional ships stay within the bounds of what might have been historically reasonable if such a ship was considered.

But what you're proposing goes outside those bounds and should be rejected on that basis.

 

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1 minute ago, Asym_KS said:

Oh please.....  Ye of so little faith !!!  Suspend history......it happens every day in WoWs....  Let's get giggy with hiders and campers and static radar farmers; at, the same time, boosting sales and expanding and opening up game play !!!

I prefer history to be respected, not trashed.

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Dude, don't bother suggesting anything new for this game because the jerks come out to weewee on your parade.

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I bet, if WG likes this "innovation" and they see the sales opportunities, well....................guess who'd see DE's as I've envisioned them in the game soon.....  What is the counter to the radar meta?  Another meta and that meta could be a ship type......  That would greatly expand the product base and revenue stream.

History is only the "guide" to this game.  There are many examples of suspending historical accuracy? 

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The scope and scale of the game starts at Destroyers and ends with Battleships and Carriers.  DE's are pretty small and don't have that much firepower, simply because it wasn't needed for the purpose they were designed.

If you must see DE's and other small vessels, at the moment there is a product offering that experience. You are more than welcome to give it a shot.

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I don't like BB's and that's fair !

We do and would immediately buy it !!!!

Think about the look on the Cleveland CPT's face as he/she safely is bombarding some cap from complete security when 5 torpedoes decimate him because that ship hasn't moved in 5 minutes....  Or, the BB sitting behind an Island all game long and only moving when the game is almost over.   A high speed, very hard to spot ship could "open up" the game and change the radar meta all in one increase in revenue generation !!!  Make money, break up a few static meta situations and introduce a new game play style...........win, win and more win....

I respect you choice !

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Nah, this sounds like a wish-listy suggestion that would be bad for the game. Hard pass. 

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The problem with DEs and the like is that they weren't really that fast. They actually went half the speed of a destroyer because they didn't have to keep up with fast battle groups; they were only designed to escort merchant marine ships, hence the name.

A PT boat or similar could be fast but those would have a fraction of even IJN DDs (we're talking like 3-5k HP) and wouldn't be worth it even with 4 km detection because radar or even just planes would put them in serious danger, they would only be able to torp targets they're facing, and even an IJN DD could fry them.

So this would only be useful as a way to seal club, in tiers where radar is non-existent and DDs aren't fast enough to give chase yet.

And I would hate to have a DE/frigate on my team when I could have a DD that would at least have halfway useful guns in addition to more torps and speed.

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Frigates are PT/Eboats as the heavy DD's are really CL's in this game.  Yes, a condensation of types into a new class.

As said, Frigates are littoral and shallow draft.  Torps couldn't hit them....  Fragile, oh so fragile and yes, even with 4K detect and shorter AC detect, these ships can't out shoot DD and absolutely would perish with secondaries.

BUT, they have anti-radar smoke and are lethal to sitting ships...  Even AC would have a hard time "seeing" a Frigate/PT/Eboat class.

We suspend history all of the time in this game !  This is a good idea to expand sales, get DD captains back because now, they can get inside of radar coverage and finally, add another class of "make believe ships to fool around with !"

Frigates can't play down because I'd limit them to tier 8 and above.  Or, make them an exception to the +/- 2 requirement and they'd be limited to class only +2....  No seal clubbing. 

A lethal and fragile class of ships for those whom like "close in stealthy" work.  And, to be honest, to be able to disrupt the "hiders" and "radar dependent" cruisers.

It would take a lot of skill not to die....

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7 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Frigates can't play down because I'd limit them to tier 8 and above.

Here is an issue. WG has stated that they will no longer add incomplete lines/lines that don’t go fully from bottom to top into the game. So this can’t happen. You’d need to have a full line for this to even be considered. So you can’t have only a 3 ship line starting at tier 8 or a situation where a line only goes up to tier 8 like we had with the IJN DD split for so long. WG acknowledged that was a mistake and said they will not do that anymore.

So you’d have to split the line from another line. How are you going to split these off of DDs?

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2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

I've been wondering where the Frigates were?

image.png.a1affd7beec277ab5500206a678ec03b.png

USS Abercrombiie.  DE-343. 

If I were WG, I'd take this class of ship and make them very high speed (+45K w/o speed boost), shallow water (they could go where anyone no one else could) anti-DD ships armed with rapid firing flat trajectory deck guns, very fast 9K torps, shallow draft that can avoid conventional torps, and radar limiting smoke....   A counter to hidden radar ships....

Like an upgraded PT/Eboat....  Like the DD's that really act like CL's.....

Again, this would be a developers dream assignment:   giving each nation a Frigate class with unique attributes that combine speed, maneuverability, shallow water, stealth, anti-radar capabilities, dangerous weapons and being incredibly fragile in close contact.

Thoughts?

Just one problem. DE's and FF's, being intended as convoy escorts, were abysmally slow compared to "fleet" craft. The DE you pictured was only capable of 24 knots. Even the 60's era "MacNamara's Wonders" of the Knox class could only do 27 with a clean bottom and a tail wind.

We don't need another ship type to muddy the distinctions between the existing ones even more.

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There is no "littoral" in WoWS.  There is "deep-enough" water and there is "rocks".

 

8 minutes ago, TF77 said:

DE's and FF's, being intended as convoy escorts, were abysmally slow compared to "fleet" craft.

Also this.

 

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7 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

There is no "littoral" in WoWS.  There is "deep-enough" water and there is "rocks".

 

Also this.

 

For now....  Tomorrow is another day.  We have deep draft torpedoes and normal depth torpedoes.....  At some point, new maps could explore littoral depths where certain ships could operate.

Yes, history and games make strange bed fellows. yes?!  We skew history daily in WoWs and even to the point of "creating ships that never really existed..."  And, that's really cool was well....!!!

Yes, as said above, WG admitted to making a mistake..... These are "bonus ships" and would be outside of traditional boundaries....

 

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1 hour ago, Asym_KS said:

I've been wondering where the Frigates were?

image.png.a1affd7beec277ab5500206a678ec03b.png

USS Abercrombiie.  DE-343. 

If I were WG, I'd take this class of ship and make them very high speed (+45K w/o speed boost), shallow water (they could go where anyone no one else could) anti-DD ships armed with rapid firing flat trajectory deck guns, very fast 9K torps, shallow draft that can avoid conventional torps, and radar limiting smoke....   A counter to hidden radar ships....

Like an upgraded PT/Eboat....  Like the DD's that really act like CL's.....

Again, this would be a developers dream assignment:   giving each nation a Frigate class with unique attributes that combine speed, maneuverability, shallow water, stealth, anti-radar capabilities, dangerous weapons and being incredibly fragile in close contact.

Thoughts?

Well the Butler class DEs were convoy escorts. The Butler's were slightly larger than the Clemsons, so you are looking at 9-11k HP. The two guns are the Farragut guns. It has 3 torps, so maybe single fire them like the UK? I could see it as a T3 or T4 premium depending on what torps were used. It would have more HP than other DDs at tier and better guns, but would only have two guns and tier appropriate torps. The Butler class is almost the same length as the Wickes and Clemson DDs, so give it similar maneuverability and stealth to those DDs.

 

The big problem is the speed that you want. Giving the Butler class DE a 45+ kts speed without a speed boost is practically DOUBLING the speed of 24kts that the class had in real life. Buffing the speed a few kts is one thing, but not doubling it! The Samuel B Roberts was a Butler class DE and is famous, including for her speed, in her final battle. So give the DE a 24-25kts speed and a 16-20% speed boost to get the speed up to 27.8-30kts speed while the speed boost is active. That is more reasonable.

 

33 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

Dude, don't bother suggesting anything new for this game because the jerks come out to weewee on your parade.

I don't have a problem with new ideas, just don't buff them crazily to make some super ship.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

I bet, if WG likes this "innovation" and they see the sales opportunities, well....................guess who'd see DE's as I've envisioned them in the game soon.....  What is the counter to the radar meta?  Another meta and that meta could be a ship type......  That would greatly expand the product base and revenue stream.

History is only the "guide" to this game.  There are many examples of suspending historical accuracy? 

Other cruisers, BBs and CVs are the RADAR counter. For almost all RADAR ships, your spotting range is bigger than your RADAR range.

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2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

I've been wondering where the Frigates were?

image.png.a1affd7beec277ab5500206a678ec03b.png

USS Abercrombiie.  DE-343. 

If I were WG, I'd take this class of ship and make them very high speed (+45K w/o speed boost), shallow water (they could go where anyone no one else could) anti-DD ships armed with rapid firing flat trajectory deck guns, very fast 9K torps, shallow draft that can avoid conventional torps, and radar limiting smoke....   A counter to hidden radar ships....

Like an upgraded PT/Eboat....  Like the DD's that really act like CL's.....

Again, this would be a developers dream assignment:   giving each nation a Frigate class with unique attributes that combine speed, maneuverability, shallow water, stealth, anti-radar capabilities, dangerous weapons and being incredibly fragile in close contact.

Thoughts?

Personally I would like some sort of mine laying device, or a slow deep water torp that once it gets to its destination it surfaces and lies in wait for a sucker to run over it.

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