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Broc_Ursal

Battleship build help

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I have not been playing long, and most of my matches have been in CV, but with the CV rework looming before us, I have been looking at other builds. Oddly enough, the build that I want to try is a (relatively) fast closing close quarters battleship. Something that can get close up to the opponent, dish out decent main battery fire, and direct secondary fire to chew up the enemy. I don't expect to light the world on fire with this, but I think it would be a fun adrenaline filled battle. Does anyone have any advice on lines and commander skills? Currently I have been using the Wyoming because national loyalty? But I do like how most of the main guns can be brought on target with only a slight angle from approach.

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40 minutes ago, Broc_Ursal said:

I have not been playing long, and most of my matches have been in CV, but with the CV rework looming before us, I have been looking at other builds. Oddly enough, the build that I want to try is a (relatively) fast closing close quarters battleship. Something that can get close up to the opponent, dish out decent main battery fire, and direct secondary fire to chew up the enemy. I don't expect to light the world on fire with this, but I think it would be a fun adrenaline filled battle. Does anyone have any advice on lines and commander skills? Currently I have been using the Wyoming because national loyalty? But I do like how most of the main guns can be brought on target with only a slight angle from approach.

If you're interested in a brawling battleship, I'd recommend either the French or German lines (although the French slightly less so, due to somewhat poorer turtleback armor and somewhat worse secondaries).

As for captain skills, the wiki has all you need: http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Battleships

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I have found that each line is fun to play in it;s own style. Really depends on your personal play style. They are each unique and that's what is cool

 

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After doing some looking, I think I have decided on the German line. Any advice on skills? I am looking at 1. Preventive maintenance 2. Expert marksman 3. Basic fire training 4. Advance fire training 5. Adrenaline but after that I am at a bit of a loss. I am planing on keeping the same commander the entire way.

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The varying Battleship Lines value differently as you go up the tiers.

 

1.  German BBs scale very well early on and are great until the last stop at Tier VIII.  German BB Turtlebacks have great protection for surface engagements.  Many in this line have awesome Secondary Batteries.  But from Tier VIII you start seeing problems as gunnery at range becomes a bigger issue, especially in High Tier VIII-X matches.  Some cases you will struggle to get to Secondaries range in a Tier IX-X match and need to exercise patience and not throw the ship away.  Of the BB Lines, German BBs are the worst in Main Battery performance outside brawling ranges.

2.  French BBs are IMO pretty close to German BB playstyle but they trade a few things.  German BBs got far superior protection but unreliable guns at range.  French BBs got better performing guns at range but are still brawl oriented like German BBs are, but they do not have the German BB Turtlebacks.  French 15" guns also have an uncanny ability to get easily knocked out.  Another massive problem is this line's dependency on 380mm guns from Tier VIII-IX.  There are 3 French BBs in those tiers alone that rely on 380mm guns, VIII Richelieu, VIII Premium Gascogne, IX Alsace.  IX Jean Bart is coming.  There is supposed to be a "Super Alsace" of sorts coming for Tier X but it too will be straddled with 380mm guns.  Why are 380mm guns a problem?  A number of High Tier CAs have 27mm bows and this lets them face tank 380mm or smaller AP shells.

3.  USN BBs IMO, vary quite a bit in quality.  They're either downright trash or very mediocre Tier VII and below, but at VIII they start getting very good.  Speed and Gun Range is a problem at Tier VII and below but they get a lot better in High Tier VIII-X.  In Tier IX-X, their gunnery is among the best of any Battleships in the game.  21kt speeds or even worse are a problem Tier VII and below.  In short, this line is pretty trash, but it is a Late Blooming Battleship Line.  This line gets a lot better.  Another plus is that the USN BBs switches to 406mm guns starting Tier VII.

4.  IJN BBs prize a fantastic balance on range, accuracy, power in Main Battery.  A number of the highest Sigma BBs are found here and to top it off, they have the lowest BB gun dispersion.  Hands down.  Only Artillery Plotting Room Mod 2 slotted Tier IX-X USN BBs are just as proficient at range as IJN.  They also have respectable speeds throughout, you don't go through the embarrassment of 21kt speeds like the USN BBs do.  The catch is you have citadels to protect, the BB Line that has to be most concerned with it.  Another plus is that IJN switches to 410mm guns starting at Tier VII and up to 460mm guns at Tier X, the largest and most accurate BB guns in the game.  Other BBs cannot bow tank well against IJN 460mm guns because she'll Overmatch their bows.  In some cases, especially IJN 460mm against even X Montana, they'll citadel them straight through the bow still.

5.  RN BBs are proficient in 3 things:  Main Battery HE performance, decent speed, stealth.  These advantages get more pronounced the higher in tier you go.  You don't really care about people's armor, because you got the most powerful HE in the game, shell for shell.  You got speed, unlike a number of 21kt USN BBs.  Your stealth becomes the best of all BB Lines in the game, better than even the American BBs and even some Cruisers.  Tier IX-X you also access some powerful Repair Party consumables.

 

IMO, USN, IJN, RN BBs scale better with the game the higher in tier you go because of Main Battery performance.  German BBs shine bright early on, but they burn out for High Tier.  If you prize Main Battery performance above all else, IJN BBs treat you the best as a Line.  USN BBs will, but only much later.  RN BBs are decent ranged performers.

 

I mentioned Overmatch.  Since you are new, here's some things to help you understand the importance of Overmatch as you gain experience with the game.  Bigger Guns are always good.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds

Superiority over others' armor schemes with superior firepower is a big deal.  You will find people angle against your shells to bounce the AP.  But if your guns are large enough compared to their armor, you will still land penetrations or better by virtue of having larger guns.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On 8/17/2018 at 7:33 PM, Broc_Ursal said:

I have not been playing long, and most of my matches have been in CV, but with the CV rework looming before us, I have been looking at other builds. Oddly enough, the build that I want to try is a (relatively) fast closing close quarters battleship. Something that can get close up to the opponent, dish out decent main battery fire, and direct secondary fire to chew up the enemy. I don't expect to light the world on fire with this, but I think it would be a fun adrenaline filled battle. Does anyone have any advice on lines and commander skills? Currently I have been using the Wyoming because national loyalty? But I do like how most of the main guns can be brought on target with only a slight angle from approach.

The French or German lines are for you then.  On the plus side, the ships are easier to play.

  • Go German if you're willing to trade main battery performance for better overall protection.  German ships are very tough, well-rounded, and fun to play.  Your main battery tends to have very poor dispersion, but the shell velocity is high, making it easy to hit with.  Secondary battery performance is excellent, as German 128mm and 150mm secondary batteries have superior HE penetration mechanics.  AA is concentrated at the long ranges, but doesn't follow up like American or French AA does.  You do get German hydro at the high tiers though, which is very useful.
  • Go French if you're willing to trade some overall protection for better main battery performance.  Many ships still have turtleback armor plating, but they're not as pronounced as their German counterparts, and overall French ships are not nearly as tough.  French guns are the lowest caliber of all the navies, but they either make up for that in other areas like volume of fire, faster reload, or penetration.  This culminates with the T10 Republique, despite only have 8 guns, having the best penetration out to 18km, as well has having the highest DPM of all the T10 battleships (makes for some consistently high damage games).  French AA is also very strong in the long and mid ranges, and their secondary guns spray huge clouds of shells with a high fire chance.

If you're wanting to maximize that brawling playstyle, Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament and IFHE are a must.  These are expensive, but they greatly improve the accuracy and damage of your secondaries. 

Keep in mind one thing though.  Because secondary builds are very expensive from a captain skill perspective, you really don't get to experience "brawling" until about T7, with T8 being the golden tier for it.  Unfortunately by T9, the meta has shifted to much longer range engagements.  Brawling still happens at these tiers a lot, but you have to be very patient, 'cause the lethality of T9 and T10 ships is so high that you absolutely can't go racing into battle.  This makes the greatest strengths of the German T9 and T10 ships very much a liability early on in battle.  On the other hand, French ships are much more suited to long range engagements.  They may not have the overmatch, but they have the shell velocity, accuracy, and penetration to get a lot more out of their main batteries, which makes them a lot more useful throughout the duration of the battle.  And then, when the time is appropriate to brawl, you can.

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1 hour ago, Broc_Ursal said:

Thank all of you. That is a lot of good info. Just to double check, IFHE is Inertial Fuse High Explosives, correct?

Yes.  :)

If you're doing any kind of secondary build for a battleship, it's a must.  You'll still do reliable damage against cruisers and destroyers without it, but you'll need it if you're going to do any substantial damage against battleships. 

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IFHE on a Secondaries BB is not a mustIt really depends on the most common secondaries gun size of the BB and the threats they are facing.

 

Consider the armor, superstructure you are expecting to face with your Secondaries BB.  19mm is the thickest superstructure in the game, achieved by High Tier (VIII-X) Battleships.  Everything else is lower, especially Cruisers and DDs.

 

If you want to know what your secondary guns will penetrate, here is the math as found here:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

So, 127mm is a common secondaries gun size.  I'll use USN 127mm DP guns as an example.

WITHOUT IFHE

127mm / 6 = 21.166 or 21mm of armor needed to defeat normal, Non-IFHE 127mm USN HE shells.

WITH IFHE

(127mm / 6) x 1.3 = 27.5166 or 27mm of armor needed to defeat IFHE 127mm USN HE shells.

 

Looking at BB superstructure armor that your Secondaries BB is going to face is important because in most cases, your shells will find their way to their superstructures.  If it falls to the deck, then in general they will fail to penetrate as 127mm IFHE will be easily defeated by the minimal deck armor of High Tier BBs, which is 32mm.  Some go as far as 50mm deck armor.  If your BB is super close, i.e. 7km or less, then the shells will fall to the waterline, and against BB belt armor, you'll never penetrate that extremely thick armor with your secondaries, IFHE or no IFHE.

 

If you got a Cruiser or DD in secondaries range, they'll melt to 127mm anyways as their superstructures get ravaged even without IFHE.  DDs are even worse off.

 

Where IFHE really comes into play are some of the BBs with super small, common secondary guns.  Great example is Tier IX Alsace.  She has a few 152mm guns but 100mm guns make up the majority of her secondaries battery.  Alsace secondaries is very good until they have to be used against another High Tier Battleship.  Why?  Because they will fail to penetrate even the common 19mm superstructure of the BBs found there.  It's in the math:

Alsace WITHOUT IFHE

100mm / 6 = 16.666 or 17mm of armor to defeat French Non-IFHE 100mm HE shells.

Alsace WITH IFHE

(100mm / 6) x 1.3 = 21.666 or 22mm of armor to defeat French IFHE 100mm shells.

If Tier IX Alsace without IFHE is battering some Tier VII BB with secondaries, she will rip them apart as even without IFHE, the French 100mm secondaries will tear through the 16mm superstructures of Tier VII BBs.

 

But against Tier VIII-X BBs, Alsace secondaries will fail.  High Tier BBs all have 19mm superstructure, so the French 100s will fail to penetrate to do shell damage.  They end up relying on fires entirely, because you can land hundreds and hundreds of hits and do ZERO SHELL DAMAGE to a High Tier BB.

 

But if Alsace takes IFHE?   Then it's a different ballgame as now the IFHE French 100mm guns can penetrate the 19mm superstructure of High Tier BBs, on top of still setting fires.

 

Another major catch to implementing IFHE into a Secondaries Build is that it makes an already expensive Secondaries Build into the game's costliest build.

 

In general, if you got 127mm or larger general secondaries gun size, you do not need IFHE.  Put the points into something that will get you bigger returns.  German BB secondaries are a different thing altogether with different circumstances.  Even then, the only real IFHE candidates for German BBs are Gneisenau and GK due to the 128mm guns they have and the special German HE Pen.

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11 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

IFHE on a Secondaries BB is not a mustIt really depends on the most common secondaries gun size of the BB and the threats they are facing.

Consider the armor, superstructure you are expecting to face with your Secondaries BB.  19mm is the thickest superstructure in the game, achieved by High Tier (VIII-X) Battleships.  Everything else is lower, especially Cruisers and DDs.

If you want to know what your secondary guns will penetrate, here is the math as found here:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

So, 127mm is a common secondaries gun size.  I'll use USN 127mm DP guns as an example.

WITHOUT IFHE

127mm / 6 = 21.166 or 21mm of armor needed to defeat normal, Non-IFHE 127mm USN HE shells.

WITH IFHE

(127mm / 6) x 1.3 = 27.5166 or 27mm of armor needed to defeat IFHE 127mm USN HE shells.

Looking at BB superstructure armor that your Secondaries BB is going to face is important because in most cases, your shells will find their way to their superstructures.  If it falls to the deck, then in general they will fail to penetrate as 127mm IFHE will be easily defeated by the minimal deck armor of High Tier BBs, which is 32mm.  Some go as far as 50mm deck armor.  If your BB is super close, i.e. 7km or less, then the shells will fall to the waterline, and against BB belt armor, you'll never penetrate that extremely thick armor with your secondaries, IFHE or no IFHE.

If you got a Cruiser or DD in secondaries range, they'll melt to 127mm anyways as their superstructures get ravaged even without IFHE.  DDs are even worse off.

Where IFHE really comes into play are some of the BBs with super small, common secondary guns.  Great example is Tier IX Alsace.  She has a few 152mm guns but 100mm guns make up the majority of her secondaries battery.  Alsace secondaries is very good until they have to be used against another High Tier Battleship.  Why?  Because they will fail to penetrate even the common 19mm superstructure of the BBs found there.  It's in the math:

Alsace WITHOUT IFHE

100mm / 6 = 16.666 or 17mm of armor to defeat French Non-IFHE 100mm HE shells.

Alsace WITH IFHE

(100mm / 6) x 1.3 = 21.666 or 22mm of armor to defeat French IFHE 100mm shells.

If Tier IX Alsace without IFHE is battering some Tier VII BB with secondaries, she will rip them apart as even without IFHE, the French 100mm secondaries will tear through the 16mm superstructures of Tier VII BBs.

But against Tier VIII-X BBs, Alsace secondaries will fail.  High Tier BBs all have 19mm superstructure, so the French 100s will fail to penetrate to do shell damage.  They end up relying on fires entirely, because you can land hundreds and hundreds of hits and do ZERO SHELL DAMAGE to a High Tier BB.

But if Alsace takes IFHE?   Then it's a different ballgame as now the IFHE French 100mm guns can penetrate the 19mm superstructure of High Tier BBs, on top of still setting fires.

Another major catch to implementing IFHE into a Secondaries Build is that it makes an already expensive Secondaries Build into the game's costliest build.

In general, if you got 127mm or larger general secondaries gun size, you do not need IFHE.  Put the points into something that will get you bigger returns.  German BB secondaries are a different thing altogether with different circumstances.  Even then, the only real IFHE candidates for German BBs are Gneisenau and GK due to the 128mm guns they have and the special German HE Pen.

Honestly, you're just supporting my statement with your explanation.  I'm talking about total overall damage reliability from game to game.  There will always be exceptions here and there, but adding IFHE, though expensive, opens up a lot of opportunity for doing damage with your secondaries against an enemy ships.  In every situation, adding IFHE for secondary builds is a good, good thing, and that's why players often see huge secondary damage improvements by adding it. 

Heck, when even looking at the "King of Brawlers", the T10 Großer Kurfürst, adding IFHE allows its 128mm secondaries to penetrate 32mm plating, which a lot of enemy BBs are covered in.  And even ships that have thicker than 32mm deck plating (like some Japanese ships or the 38mm plating on the Montana, stuff like that), still have 32mm plating in places which, depending on the angle the Kurfurst is firing at, can hit. 

Again, we're talking about overall damage reliability here.  It's not going to solve every problem, but having IFHE opens up a lot of doors for doing damage in places that you otherwise wouldn't.  In real games, secondary batteries are fired from all sorts of angles, often at long ranges that increase its dispersion, and aren't perfect laser batteries that always hit just the superstructure. 

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5 hours ago, Ranari said:

Honestly, you're just supporting my statement with your explanation.  I'm talking about total overall damage reliability from game to game.  There will always be exceptions here and there, but adding IFHE, though expensive, opens up a lot of opportunity for doing damage with your secondaries against an enemy ships.  In every situation, adding IFHE for secondary builds is a good, good thing, and that's why players often see huge secondary damage improvements by adding it. 

Heck, when even looking at the "King of Brawlers", the T10 Großer Kurfürst, adding IFHE allows its 128mm secondaries to penetrate 32mm plating, which a lot of enemy BBs are covered in.  And even ships that have thicker than 32mm deck plating (like some Japanese ships or the 38mm plating on the Montana, stuff like that), still have 32mm plating in places which, depending on the angle the Kurfurst is firing at, can hit. 

Again, we're talking about overall damage reliability here.  It's not going to solve every problem, but having IFHE opens up a lot of doors for doing damage in places that you otherwise wouldn't.  In real games, secondary batteries are fired from all sorts of angles, often at long ranges that increase its dispersion, and aren't perfect laser batteries that always hit just the superstructure. 

It doesn't open up more damage reliability unless you got some very specific guns:  Small caliber guns (100mm) or the special HE penning German ones, and even then, only very specific guns from that line.

 

IFHE does not do anything with the majority of BBs that sport 127mm or so secondaries, which are the bulk of them out there.  All you're really doing is lessening your chances for fire for extra penetration when your guns are already penetrating what they already need to penetrate.

 

I look at all these guys with, "IFHE on Massachusetts is a mandatory skill!" and I laugh.  There's so many BBs out there that don't need IFHE, while some very specific, select ones kind of do.  All these guys are doing are nerfing their chances for fire.  MASS already can penetrate the superstructure of what she needs to fight, even High Tier BBs.

 

Even in the Alsace case, where IFHE opens up a lot more damage against High Tier BBs, many refuse to take IFHE because of the tremendous cost and instead just rely on fires.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It doesn't open up more damage reliability unless you got some very specific guns:  Small caliber guns (100mm) or the special HE penning German ones, and even then, only very specific guns from that line.

 

IFHE does not do anything with the majority of BBs that sport 127mm or so secondaries, which are the bulk of them out there.  All you're really doing is lessening your chances for fire for extra penetration when your guns are already penetrating what they already need to penetrate.

 

I look at all these guys with, "IFHE on Massachusetts is a mandatory skill!" and I laugh.  There's so many BBs out there that don't need IFHE, while some very specific, select ones kind of do.  All these guys are doing are nerfing their chances for fire.  MASS already can penetrate the superstructure of what she needs to fight, even High Tier BBs.

 

Even in the Alsace case, where IFHE opens up a lot more damage against High Tier BBs, many refuse to take IFHE because of the tremendous cost and instead just rely on fires.

Very specific guns?  Uhh, the Tirpitz, Bismarck, Friedrich der Große , Alsace, Bayern, Richelieu, Gascogne, Prinz Eitel Friedrich (if you wanna brawl in that thing), and Scharnhorst all sport large batteries of either 100mm or 105mm guns.  That's the bulk of the decent brawling ships out there.  Most high tier destroyers and lots of superstructures are covered in 19mm plating, which you're not penetrating without IFHE.

Only the Massachusetts and Republique have 127mm batteries, but there are many scenarios where having IFHE opens up the ability to damage more surface area of the ship on many cruisers.  And the Massachusetts is going to face lower tier BBs with 25mm plating, which it can't pen without IFHE.  The Gneisenau B hull and Kurfurst have 128mm.  Not referring to any of the 150mm or 152mm batteries 'cause, while nice, aren't the bulk of your secondary dps.

If you want to rely on fires alone, I mean, you can.  But you're going to do a lot more consistent damage at a small reduction to your fire chance with IFHE.  I'm not going to list out every singe advantage IFHE is going to give a player, but there are a lot, lot, lot more scenarios opens up a door to do damage you couldn't than you think.  This isn't "very specific scenarios", it's "most scenarios."

Edited by Ranari

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10 hours ago, Ranari said:

Very specific guns?  Uhh, the Tirpitz, Bismarck, Friedrich der Große , Alsace, Bayern, Richelieu, Gascogne, Prinz Eitel Friedrich (if you wanna brawl in that thing), and Scharnhorst all sport large batteries of either 100mm or 105mm guns.  That's the bulk of the decent brawling ships out there.  Most high tier destroyers and lots of superstructures are covered in 19mm plating, which you're not penetrating without IFHE.

Only the Massachusetts and Republique have 127mm batteries, but there are many scenarios where having IFHE opens up the ability to damage more surface area of the ship on many cruisers.  And the Massachusetts is going to face lower tier BBs with 25mm plating, which it can't pen without IFHE.  The Gneisenau B hull and Kurfurst have 128mm.  Not referring to any of the 150mm or 152mm batteries 'cause, while nice, aren't the bulk of your secondary dps.

If you want to rely on fires alone, I mean, you can.  But you're going to do a lot more consistent damage at a small reduction to your fire chance with IFHE.  I'm not going to list out every singe advantage IFHE is going to give a player, but there are a lot, lot, lot more scenarios opens up a door to do damage you couldn't than you think.  This isn't "very specific scenarios", it's "most scenarios."

You know those guns on the German BBs got special pen, right?

 

You know your Secondaries shower superstructure, right?

"But Haze, what happens if I get closer with my BB's secondaries?"

Then your Secondaries will aim for the waterline, not the deck, not the upper belt.  THE WATERLINE.  Where you have the thick armor belt.  BBs do not get to pick and choose what part of a threat their secondaries aim at.  If you're at range than the shells spray and mostly hit superstructure.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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8 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You know those guns on the German BBs got special pen, right?

You know your Secondaries shower superstructure, right?

"But Haze, what happens if I get closer with my BB's secondaries?"

Then your Secondaries will aim for the waterline, not the deck, not the upper belt.  THE WATERLINE.  Where you have the thick armor belt.  BBs do not get to pick and choose what part of a threat their secondaries aim at.  If you're at range than the shells spray and mostly hit superstructure.

German Battleship 1/4 HE advantage only applies to their main battery as well as 128mm and 150mm guns.  German 105's do not receive the 1/4 pen rule, but instead 1/6th.

Secondaries do aim for the superstructure, but they hit all over the place.  Depending on the angle you're engaging, you're also going to be hitting the bow, the stern, the upper belt, or just land on the deck.  This video really says it all, and you'll see the Gneisenau's secondaries hitting all over the place.  Note, the Iowa is covered in 32mm outer plating:  Port, bow, side plating (internal armor belt), etc.

As for getting very, very close?  Well, that's when you'll be glad you had IFHE on your 128mm secondaries, because they'll then penetrate the upper deck armor or outer plating that battleships are often covered in.  The Montana has an upper belt of 38mm.  The Yamato and Conqueror have 32mm upper belt.  The Republique has an internal armor belt, so it's covered in 32mm plating.  The high tier German BBs are covered in thicker armor plating, but they still have some non-superstructure spots that'll take damage.  This is where IFHE would probably have the least benefit, but again, you're not damaging the superstructures using your Bismarck's 105's without it. 

Still can't see where IFHE wouldn't be useful in the vast majority of realistic brawling scenarios.

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1 hour ago, Ranari said:

German Battleship 1/4 HE advantage only applies to their main battery as well as 128mm and 150mm guns.  German 105's do not receive the 1/4 pen rule, but instead 1/6th.

Secondaries do aim for the superstructure, but they hit all over the place.  Depending on the angle you're engaging, you're also going to be hitting the bow, the stern, the upper belt, or just land on the deck.  This video really says it all, and you'll see the Gneisenau's secondaries hitting all over the place.  Note, the Iowa is covered in 32mm outer plating:  Port, bow, side plating (internal armor belt), etc.

As for getting very, very close?  Well, that's when you'll be glad you had IFHE on your 128mm secondaries, because they'll then penetrate the upper deck armor or outer plating that battleships are often covered in.  The Montana has an upper belt of 38mm.  The Yamato and Conqueror have 32mm upper belt.  The Republique has an internal armor belt, so it's covered in 32mm plating.  The high tier German BBs are covered in thicker armor plating, but they still have some non-superstructure spots that'll take damage.  This is where IFHE would probably have the least benefit, but again, you're not damaging the superstructures using your Bismarck's 105's without it. 

Still can't see where IFHE wouldn't be useful in the vast majority of realistic brawling scenarios.

If you get close the secondaries aim where all AI attacks aim for... The waterline.

 

Outside those distances your attacks are still mostly hitting superstructure.  So the investment in IFHE is wholly a wasted affair unless you got those special guns in particular.  It's a waste of 4 precious points.

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On 8/24/2018 at 12:10 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If you get close the secondaries aim where all AI attacks aim for... The waterline.

 

Outside those distances your attacks are still mostly hitting superstructure.  So the investment in IFHE is wholly a wasted affair unless you got those special guns in particular.  It's a waste of 4 precious points.

Have to go with Haze on this one. Ifhe is a waste of points on a BB. I have literally been in short range engagements where I have been hit hundreds of times and only took the equivalent of a few over pens worth of damage. 

With a brawler you want workable armor and solid main batteries. The Germans have the best armor but suffer from the worst main batteries.

Brawling in a BB, secondaries are secondary lol. They exist more to scare off smaller ships. The skill involved in brawling comes from being able to place your shots in vulnerable spots while protecting your own.

When many of those "Brawler" BBs open up to use their secondaries they eat tons of damage. And when they are angled their main batteries are less effective than more balanced lines. 

The French is probably the best line for brawling because of their rifles. However, I like to brawl with the IJN because they give up armor for often the biggest punchest guns per tier. Even then their armor is serviceable. The only nation to challenge this is the USN at tier 8+.

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On 8/24/2018 at 3:10 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If you get close the secondaries aim where all AI attacks aim for... The waterline.

Outside those distances your attacks are still mostly hitting superstructure.  So the investment in IFHE is wholly a wasted affair unless you got those special guns in particular.  It's a waste of 4 precious points.

I'm scratching my head here.  Just focusing purely on the superstructure, you're not going to do penetration damage against 19mm superstructure armor using 100mm and 105mm secondary guns.  Which means, the shells shatter.  You'll get fire damage, sure, but otherwise that's a lot of missed damage.  Those are the guns predominantly found on French and German battleships, which constitute the majority of the brawling ships.

But I digress.  We're going to have to agree to disagree.

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1 hour ago, Ranari said:

I'm scratching my head here.  Just focusing purely on the superstructure, you're not going to do penetration damage against 19mm superstructure armor using 100mm and 105mm secondary guns.  Which means, the shells shatter.  You'll get fire damage, sure, but otherwise that's a lot of missed damage.  Those are the guns predominantly found on French and German battleships, which constitute the majority of the brawling ships.

But I digress.  We're going to have to agree to disagree.

Because Superstructure is where your Secondary gunfire naturally falls to.

 

I already went over it, 100mm which isn't IJN cannot penetrate 19mm High Tier BB Superstructures, but with IFHE, it can.

IFHE on Alsace, which sports tons and tons of 100mm guns showcases this.  Without IFHE the 100mm guns fail to penetrate and do shell damage.  With IFHE they can.  This is old knowledge.  When Akizuki was brand new long ago, her players were finding this out.  It's just ever since then, outside that specific crowd of 'Zuki veterans, nobody paid heed to this information.

 

You also have the 127mm, 128mm Secondary BBs and IFHE isn't paramount.


Which leads me back into what I said to begin with:

On 8/22/2018 at 8:36 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

IFHE on a Secondaries BB is not a mustIt really depends on the most common secondaries gun size of the BB and the threats they are facing.

 

People going around here talking like IFHE is mandatory, "is a must" are wrong.

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I actually had a bit of a laugh. I had come back to ask if I should get IFHE or, since I keep seeing that fire is the German BB enemy, fire prevention. I already have preventive maintanence, the skill that improves turret rotation, basic and advanced fire training and my next is going to be manual secondary aim. If I go IFHE I will have 1 point left and there really isn't anything else that catches my eye, but I will have better pen with the HE secondaries. If I go fire prevent, I can also get adrenaline. Any thoughts? Looking at this, I have found out that there is a whole lot more going on than I had thought and I appreciate all of the info.

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