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VGLance

WG really needs to add this simple stat

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Average place finish on scoreboard.

#1. In random battles, this only factors in 12v12 matches, not the very rare ones where there are fewer per side.

#2. This metric isn't intended to be argued that it is a closer representation of skill to any other metric.  It is simply an additional metric added to all the others that when combined and properly analyzed help paint a clear picture of performance.

#3. Programming in the code and adding the data to the UI should not take longer than a day for any half decent programmer. I'm sure there are plenty that can do it in under a few hours.

#4. Arguing that it will encourage poor behavior is bogus. The very things that get you to the top of the scoreboard are the same things that lead to wins. In other words those with high win rates and high avg dmg will have much higher avg place finishes than below avg players with low win rates and low avg dmg. All the metrics move in parallel but each metric provides helpful insight on their own as well as the whole.

Example of this valuable metric in providing great insight. Say you have two identical players in all solo stats in their Hindy but player A has a slightly higher win rate and average place on the scoreboard but lower average damage than player B.  This helps tell us that Player B is either not as aggressive in capping and/or does more of their damage to BBs. There could be some other factors like a tendancy to focus lower tier ships which you dont get as much xp for but it at least gets a dialogue going to hone in on what adjustments a player can make to be more influential in the match.

This also helps in ranked to see how much a player might focus their strategy on star preservation, aka hedging their bets, which is a perfectly viable strategy even if some players haven't yet grasped the concept that ranked is all about star advancement so defending oneself from losing a star is just as important as trying to gain stars. Plus it would shed some interesting light on which strategy is more efficient. For example if you rank out in 300 matches with a 2nd place avg finish and someone else ranks out in 200 matches with a 3rd place avg finish, it would potentially suggest that hedging is actually less efficient because while rarely losing stars, you're not gaining as frequently either so you end up having to play a lot more matches.

The only downside is that they can only count matches moving forward after implementing the code so it would require a separate battles played counter tied to this metric. But this happens all the time in professional sports where certain metrics only go back a decade or so because they were not previously tracked. That should never be an excuse to exclude valuable insight.

 

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You'd think they could figure out how to do base xp without sending it to the api with premium factored in.... But yeah. 

I'd like to see base xp and average place. 

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I know there's a line in there about "the idea that this promotes bad behavior is bogus", but you know it will. "Aw you average 5th place or lower? Shut up scrub" "You can't have an opinion if you don't average 4th+."

 

It's basically only going to foster the same garbage behavior that winrate, WTR, and other stats already do. And "Well it happens with other stats" is not an excuse to say it won't promote toxic behavior, either.

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Just now, KiyoSenkan said:

I know there's a line in there about "the idea that this promotes bad behavior is bogus", but you know it will. "Aw you average 5th place or lower? Shut up scrub" "You can't have an opinion if you don't average 4th+."

 

It's basically only going to foster the same garbage behavior that winrate, WTR, and other stats already do. And "Well it happens with other stats" is not an excuse to say it won't promote toxic behavior, either.

I heard you were in ninth place in 50% of your battles, YOU SUCK :cap_horn::cap_old:

Ignore the stats because I suck.

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1 minute ago, KiyoSenkan said:

I know there's a line in there about "the idea that this promotes bad behavior is bogus", but you know it will. "Aw you average 5th place or lower? Shut up scrub" "You can't have an opinion if you don't average 4th+."

 

It's basically only going to foster the same garbage behavior that winrate, WTR, and other stats already do. And "Well it happens with other stats" is not an excuse to say it won't promote toxic behavior, either.

Forum posts per battle would be a much better metric to show skill. 

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2 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

I know there's a line in there about "the idea that this promotes bad behavior is bogus", but you know it will. "Aw you average 5th place or lower? Shut up scrub" "You can't have an opinion if you don't average 4th+."

 

It's basically only going to foster the same garbage behavior that winrate, WTR, and other stats already do. And "Well it happens with other stats" is not an excuse to say it won't promote toxic behavior, either.

Eh, make it private. I agree with him, though, that this would be very nice.

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10 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Forum posts per battle would be a much better metric to show skill. 

^^^ +1

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20 minutes ago, Vangm94 said:

This looks complicated already.

You must not have basic programming knowledge.  It's insanely easy to code.  Each place on the leaderboard is given a number in the array (1 for first place, 2 for second place, etc.).  It gets recorded and averaged based on number of times that metric is recorded on a new battle counter.  Done.  The rest is just adding the field data in the user interface graphically. 

Edited by VGLance
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16 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

I know there's a line in there about "the idea that this promotes bad behavior is bogus", but you know it will. "Aw you average 5th place or lower? Shut up scrub" "You can't have an opinion if you don't average 4th+."

 

It's basically only going to foster the same garbage behavior that winrate, WTR, and other stats already do. And "Well it happens with other stats" is not an excuse to say it won't promote toxic behavior, either.

And the reverse argument can be made.  That bad players who make whine posts about XYZ happening and it's not their fault because they claim they are almost always finishing in the top three on the scoreboard (we hear people posting those claims all the time) can now be made aware how off their perception is.  This is incredibly helpful for them to make a course correction and fall closer in line with reality which would improve their performance tremendously.

My question to you is why are you so hostile against information?  What happened to you that made you so negative and immediately default to thinking about the worst scenario?  Information is just that.  It's information.  I encourage you find a way to embrace reality because the more you run from it and attack it, the worse it will hurt when reality snaps back and hits you in the face.  

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53 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Forum posts per battle would be a much better metric to show skill. 

This feels like you're trying to insult me, but it's just coming off as kinda sad.

23 minutes ago, VGLance said:

My question to you is why are you so hostile against information?  What happened to you that made you so negative and immediately default to thinking about the worst scenario?  Information is just that.  It's information.  I encourage you find a way to embrace reality because the more you run from it and attack it, the worse it will hurt when reality snaps back and hits you in the face.  

I'm not against information. I'm against making claims that are patently false (The afformentioned "There is no way this could be used negatively" claim in the OP).

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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Here is the problem with average placement.  Note the Nagato on our team...

 

8eeGy3u.jpg

 

All this guy did was sail to the far eastern edge of the map and sit there the entire game.  He never ever fired his guns until the last few minutes. He spent the whole game getting sniped  at (badly) by the other side's BBs from long range because they thought he went AFK (so did we at first).  The only reason I knew he wasn't was that he kept repairing fires.  But because the red BBs couldn't  aim he must have racked up a substantial amount of potential damage.  Other than that he contributed nothing at all to the battle.  Nothing with a capital "N".  With a fireproof award.  An Award for hitting the "R" key repeatedly.

And he ends up in 5th place.

Whatever metrics WG is using to develop the end game rankings are suspicious at best and more likely Fubar.

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2 minutes ago, JCC45 said:

Here is the problem with average placement.  Note the Nagato on our team...

All this guy did was sail to the far eastern edge of the map and sit there the entire game.  He never ever fired his guns until the last few minutes. He spent the whole game getting sniped  at (badly) by the other side's BBs from long range because they thought he went AFK (so did we at first).  The only reason I knew he wasn't was that he kept repairing fires.  But because the red BBs couldn't  aim he must have racked up a substantial amount of potential damage.  Other than that he contributed nothing at all to the battle.  Nothing with a capital "N".  With a fireproof award.  An Award for hitting the "R" key repeatedly.

And he ends up in 5th place.

Whatever metrics WG is using to develop the end game rankings are suspicious at best and more likely Fubar.

The rankings are by base xp, so there is nothing wrong with the code. The problem is, at the end of the day xp suffers from the same problems as WTR, PR and any other aggregate stat that purports to measure skill; All it measures is how you rank in someones opinion of what is important for winning the game.

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22 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

I'm not against information. I'm against making claims that are patently false (The afformentioned "There is no way this could be used negatively" claim in the OP).

And when you learn to stop taking my words out of context and misrepresenting what I say, maybe you might earn a sliver of respect.

Read the WHOLE LINE where I talk about poor behavior, it's clear I'm talking about farming scoreboard rank somehow having a negative impact on the team, which is indeed bogus.  Unless you can somehow convince us that the bottom three players on the scoreboard including the zero xp afk player were clearly more helpful to the team than the top three players on the scoreboard.

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The best thing they could do, is make stats only available to the player.  I think a lot of negativity and toxicity could be avoided at no appreciable loss.

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15 minutes ago, JCC45 said:

Here is the problem with average placement.  Note the Nagato on our team...

 

8eeGy3u.jpg

 

All this guy did was sail to the far eastern edge of the map and sit there the entire game.  He never ever fired his guns until the last few minutes. He spent the whole game getting sniped  at (badly) by the other side's BBs from long range because they thought he went AFK (so did we at first).  The only reason I knew he wasn't was that he kept repairing fires.  But because the red BBs couldn't  aim he must have racked up a substantial amount of potential damage.  Other than that he contributed nothing at all to the battle.  Nothing with a capital "N".  With a fireproof award.  An Award for hitting the "R" key repeatedly.

And he ends up in 5th place.

Whatever metrics WG is using to develop the end game rankings are suspicious at best and more likely Fubar.

You contradicted yourself.  You said he racked up a lot of potential damage which means even though he sucked, he was an incredibly valuable distraction to the even suckier enemy team.  If he truly is a bad player, he won't repeatedly get games like this and his average over time will fall in line as it should.

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1 minute ago, crzyhawk said:

The best thing they could do, is make stats only available to the player.  I think a lot of negativity and toxicity could be avoided at no appreciable loss.

Say that to the continued decline of our education system compared to other countries that post everyone's grades on the door for everyone to see.  Both public embarrassment and reality are very powerful motivators that drive excellence.  One of the major reasons why potatoes stay potatoes in this game is that they hide their stats or don't look at them.  They run from reality, sweep it under the rug, and all it does is enable complacency and a continued contentedness with setting lower and lower standards for themselves.  And if you think that that mindset and thought process doesn't spill out into the real world, you're fooling yourself.

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19 minutes ago, VGLance said:

Say that to the continued decline of our education system compared to other countries that post everyone's grades on the door for everyone to see.  Both public embarrassment and reality are very powerful motivators that drive excellence.  One of the major reasons why potatoes stay potatoes in this game is that they hide their stats or don't look at them.  They run from reality, sweep it under the rug, and all it does is enable complacency and a continued contentedness with setting lower and lower standards for themselves.  And if you think that that mindset and thought process doesn't spill out into the real world, you're fooling yourself.

<insert eye roll here>

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27 minutes ago, VGLance said:

And when you learn to stop taking my words out of context and misrepresenting what I say, maybe you might earn a sliver of respect.

Read the WHOLE LINE where I talk about poor behavior, it's clear I'm talking about farming scoreboard rank somehow having a negative impact on the team, which is indeed bogus.  Unless you can somehow convince us that the bottom three players on the scoreboard including the zero xp afk player were clearly more helpful to the team than the top three players on the scoreboard.

Eh, just because the specifically defined bad behavior is impossible doesn't mean other bad behaviors are impossible. You're talking specifically about gaming the system, and that's something I can agree with.

 

But it'll still be used as ammunition by slimy elitists who need to find any reason to assume they're better than others, and also used as ammunition to claim other players are sub-human scum that don't deserve to exist, much less play the same game. Unless stats are universally hidden and only available to the one player they matter to, as suggested by @crzyhawk, this is still something that can be abused and can still be the source of toxic behavior. Same as any other publicly view-able stat.

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55 minutes ago, VGLance said:

You contradicted yourself.  You said he racked up a lot of potential damage which means even though he sucked, he was an incredibly valuable distraction to the even suckier enemy team.  If he truly is a bad player, he won't repeatedly get games like this and his average over time will fall in line as it should.

I have a screenshot in IJN dd section, where I was the only person on my team to touch the cap, I spotted enemies, had 2 caps solo, sunk almost full hp enemy yamato and torped some other ships,  and almost got 3rd solo cap before enemy CV killed me. And for all my effort only got 4th place on a loss. While one of my teams BBs was sitting and sniping the whole game in a far corner, probably farmed some good damage and placed first, but was useless in winning the game, did not tank nor sunk ships of importance. Damage is king in this game, sinking 2 potato BBs places you far ahead of a dd that got 3 solo caps and spotted for the whole game.

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44 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Eh, just because the specifically defined bad behavior is impossible doesn't mean other bad behaviors are impossible. You're talking specifically about gaming the system, and that's something I can agree with.

 

But it'll still be used as ammunition by slimy elitists who need to find any reason to assume they're better than others, and also used as ammunition to claim other players are sub-human scum that don't deserve to exist, much less play the same game. Unless stats are universally hidden and only available to the one player they matter to, as suggested by @crzyhawk, this is still something that can be abused and can still be the source of toxic behavior. Same as any other publicly view-able stat.

There are always going to be those select few bullies.  But guess what.  9/10 you and others claim bullying and stat shaming when it's not.  If person A makes a false claim or accuses others of poor play or otherwise points the finger at anyone but themselves and person B shows clearly how the performance metrics of Person A proves Person A is the real problem, that is not stat shaming or bullying or anything at all.  Person A by making false claims and failing to take personal accountability has waived their ability to play the victim card.

The overwhelming majority if toxicity in this game stems from bad players making bad decisions and not owning up to them.  I can't have a simple three game session without some suicidal maniac derping themselves in less than 3 minutes and then proceeds to spend the rest of the match trolling the entire team blaming them for no support and being cowards.  Yet I never hear you support any effort to squelch their toxicity.  The real people who start it.  And the only way they are going to stop being toxic is to wake up to reality.  That's the beauty of what objective performance data does, because I cannot hack into their account or WG's servers and sabotage those numbers.  That's why the worse a player is, generally the more hostile they are when it comes to trying to discredit their relevance or hide them.

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I think this would be a good thing, and at least something you should be able to see for your own stats.

Understanding your current place helps motivation to improve.

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1 hour ago, KiyoSenkan said:

This feels like you're trying to insult me, but it's just coming off as kinda sad.

Not really, just having fun while noting your dedication to the forums.

But expertise does come from doing an activity rather than talking about it, so I don't really think it's a good metric

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I don't really know what difference it would make.  Match making is still random.  You're still going to be on the same or opposing team against people that average low on the results screen.  

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I think the biggest problem is that people talk too much.  Mind your own business, keep your mouth shut and your head down, and hope that you don't royally screw up.  If you do, hope no one notices.

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