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Carl

British BB Split Proposal

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I'm aware for many obvious reasons that any RNBB split is going to be a ways off, but i had some fun thoughts to throw out that might in the long term address some of the frustration factors of facing RN BB's in the process.

 

What your not going to see is sweeping changes to shell characteristics, i'm gonna suggest a couple, but the majority are based of IRL features of the shells, they're not open to serious modification without give and take. That said as several people, (LWM in another thread was what got this idea ball rolling in fact), have pointed out a lot of RN HE's reputation is genuinely overblown. The real reason you see so many firing it is that on most RN BB's the AP is highly suspect at best, and downright awful at worst. Lion and Conqueror are the only one's that really break that and by then way too many players have been conditioned to fire nothing but HE.

 

 

Global changes for both lines:

 

HE shells lose their 1/4 pen and become 1/6th pen. Honestly some edge cases against cruiser citadels aside the pen change makes no real difference. But it should make a nice placebo effect, (which is why i think it was set to 1/4 in the first place),  to encourage people to fire moe AP.

 

AP Shell have their fuse timers set back to normal BB values. The reduced timers might in theory make them better vs cruisers but the advantage is small and it hurts them more against BB's than it helps vs cruisers IMO, which plays a big factor in pushing down AP usage also.

 

Iron Duke at T5 becomes a Coal premium and is replaced by Repulse in her as sunk configuration. She receives the same quick repair party, (see below), of the A Line. Likely a slightly a-historical reload and high sigma would be required. 54 second turret rotation to match Warspite and the new QE. Main purpose is to put a ship with passabble AP in a bit earlier, (Orion's AP is actually ok for her tier TBH, but you could give her Iron Duke's slightly better AP to push that),

 

Note i am not including post Refit Renown, she's a real dammed oddity with her 35 knot top speed, (Oh to see tat with french cruisers 20% sped boost and RN CL/DD turn speed loss), and torpedoes. 

 

 

A Line: This is the most in line with the current main line. Aside from the global changes the main characteristic of this line is the enhanced repair party. This is the same quick cooldown 1 less charge repair party found on Massachusetts and Jean Bart currently.

 

A Line ships (with any changes noted):

 

T6: Queen Elizabeth, other than the new repair part the only other change is her turret rotation time is reduced from 7 to 54 seconds. This should help bring her performance up on par with her tiermates.

 

T7: Monarch, the current T8. Again only change would be the repair party consumable. The drop in tier and slightly improved repair party should make her AP very viable and she should overall be strongly competitive, though sigma/reload may need tweaking a little for balance.

 

T8: HMS Temeraire, As Lion but with the quick repair instead of super heal and only 406mm Guns, and reduced AAA fit, (like 6 barreled bofors to quads and reduce twins for STAAG to MK V's)

 

T9: HMS Lion, but with 419mm only, Super repair remains from T9+

 

T10: HMS Conqueror, again as current but restricted to 419mm again.

 

 

B Line:

Cruiser Lite type. No repair party till T8, (standard BB repair from their), but cruiser DCP, 45 second fire duration and gets two cruiser like consumables. A long lasting Hydro, (Cruiser range, RNDD duration/cooldown), and a long Llsting, (CV duration/coolodwon), disruption only, (no damage multiplier), defensive fire.

 

T6: KGV. Consumable changes aside the only other changs would likely be tweaking for final balance to sigma/reload. The fact is KGV AP only has the same pen as QE/Mutsu. There no way that's ever going to be workable at T7 to the degree we want with this split so downtiering her is the only option to make her work.

T7: Rebuilt Admiral class with 8x2 4.5" Queen Elizabeth type DP mounts. Fictional upgrade to Mk II 15" guns as found on Monarch. Probably HMS Beatty 

T8: HMS Trafalgar Slightly modified Vanguard design with 15" MK II guns with super charges, (so Monarch guns plus aout 30m/s muzzle velocity), and uniform 373mm belt. Receives a standard BB Repair party. Took the name from the lead vessel of the same class of the post war Nuclear attack subs.

T9: HMS Thunderer 18" Armed Conqueror with standard repair party and DP armament revised to 10x2 4.5" mounts, improved type, same as used on Neptune and Daring.

T10: I'm a bit low on idea's at this point TBH. It's the one gap i couldn't fill. Maybe a stretched COnqueror with 4x3 18" turrets would work, the lower Hp and standard repair compensation for the enormous punch they'd have. Not ure on a name, maybe go with HMS Turbulent to go with my allready established trick of cribbing names off the RN's post war nuclear attack subs.

 

Overall this improves the average penetration and fusing performance of RN BB AP at all tiers in both lines other than 9/10 which receive just the improved fusing and retain all but one of the existing ships.

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Interesting. 

To be honest though, I'm more interested in the lower tier ships which are not yet in the game as well as some of the design studies which are still out there for some of the higher tier ships. 

For a list of the actual missing classes, here they are. 

Battleships: 

HMS Dreadnought:  First Dreadnought ever constructed.  Almost identical to the current T3 Battleships Bellerophon with the exception of her secondary battery which used twenty seven 3 inch guns rather than Bellerophon's 4 inch guns.

HMS St. Vincent 9U0ZND.jpg

HMS St Vincent: Identical layout to Dreadnought and Bellerophon but mounting the more accurate and powerful 50 caliber version of the 12 inch gun rather than the old 45 caliber version carried by her predecessors.

HMS Neptune CfU98x.jpg

The Neptunes featured a revised main battery layout similar to that adopted by several contemporary German battleships with superfiring guns aft, two turrets en echelon amidships and a single turret forward giving the vessel a potential 10 gun broadside rather than the maximum eight gun broadside of earlier vessels.  The protective scheme was  also improved over earlier vessels.

HMS Colossus dYQ4pV.jpg

Similar to the Neptune class, the Colossus's would be the last British Battleships to mount 12 inch guns.  Armored protection was improved in this class as were arrangements for more effective fire control. 

HMS King George V: y66TTw.jpg

This is not the KGV Tier VIII battleship currently in the game but is instead her predecessor which served with the Royal Navy during WWII and which was later scrapped in the 1920's to comply with the terms of the Washington Naval Treaty.   

The King George V's were enlarged and improved versions of the T4 Battleship Orion which is currently in the game.  Main improvements included an more complete and effective armoring scheme as well as enhanced fire control systems. 

HMS Agincourt: LpjK5d.jpg

Agincourt was a battleship originally ordered by the Brazilian government but then sold to Turkey while still under construction.  The vessel was seized by the British in a nearly complete condition and added to the Royal Navy.  

Agincourt was a unique vessel carrying fourteen 12 inch 50 caliber guns in seven twin turrets (the most heavy guns carried by any battleship ever constructed).  She also mounted a heavy secondary battery of 6 inch guns in favor of the 4 inch guns typical of most British Dreadnoughts built before her. 

She was generally faster than the other battleships of the Royal Navy (with the exception of the Queen Elizabeths) but her protective scheme was weaker and used an armoring scheme more reminiscent of battleships of the Pre-Dreadnought era. 

HMS Erin  wwexxY.jpg

Erin was another vessel being built for Turkey which was nearing completion upon the outbreak of WWI which the British siezed and incorporated into the Royal navy.  Her design was based on that of the King George V but incorporated the 6 inch gun secondary battery of the Iron Dukes and featured an improved armoring scheme. 

HMS Canada: PeHajI.jpg

 Originally one of two battleships ordered by Chile, the Canada was purchased by the Royal Navy as she neared completion and incorporated into the Royal Navy.  Unlike the contemporary battleships of the Royal Navy which shipped a 13.5 inch 45 caliber gun, the Canada mounted a more powerful battery of ten 14 inch 45 caliber weapons in five twin turrets. 

Like Agincourt and Erin, the Canada was faster than the other battleships of the Royal Navy at that time, with the exception of the Queen Elizabeths, but carried less armor that her contempories carrying a protective scheme more reminiscent of a Pre-Dreadnought battleship. 

HMS Revenge:  iCorcC.jpg

Similar to the Queen Elizabeths but, with a potential conflict looming with Germany, were designed with speed of construction and costliness in mind. These ships carried the same main battery of the Queen Elizabeth but on a somewhat smaller and better protected hull.  The Revenges also did not dedicate as much space for their engines and propulsion and were therefor a bit slower than the Queen Elizabeths. 

HMS Vanguard: qGlWgZ.jpg

You already have her on your list, but just briefly, the Vanguard as essentially a Lion Class Battleship designed to speed construction by substituting eight 15 inch guns left over from the conversions of HMS Glorious and HMS Courageous into aircraft carriers for the triple 16 inch gun turrets intended for the other Lions. 

Battlecruisers: 

HMS Invincible: L9jq0P.jpg

The First Battlecruiser, the invincibles were essentially fast (25 knot) armored cruisers (6 inch armored belt) but carrying battleship caliber weapons (eight 12 inch 45 caliber guns).   The main battery was mounted in one twin turret forward, one twin turret aft and two amidship turrets arranged en echelon giving the ship a potential eight gun broadside. 

HMS Indefatigable: ULGTYx.jpg

Indefatigable was an enlarged Invincible design with the most significant improvement being the increased separation of the amidships guns giving then better firing arcs to the opposite beam that had been possible with the Invincible.  

HMS Lion : pBNiGT.jpg

A significant step forward over earlier Battlecruisers.  The Lion's were significantly larger than the earlier battlecruisers and could generate a superior top speed of 27.5 knots. The main battery was improved to mount eight of the new 13.5 inch 45 caliber guns used on contemporary battleships.  In addition, the Lions carried enhanced armored protection being similar to what one might have found on a Pre-Dreadnought battleship which was a considerable improvement.

HMS Queen Marry: aNkjpX.jpg

A slightly enlarged and faster (28 knot) version of the earlier Lion class.  

HMS Tiger: WGCgnP.jpg

A follow on improvement of the Queen Mary class with the primary difference being the movement of the amidships twin 13.5 inch gun turret from between the two funnels to the aft of them giving those guns a considerably improved firing arc.  Fire control systems were also substantially improved with this class

HMS Renown: 7m5z8E.jpg

The Renowns returned to the original battlecruiser concept of the earlier Invincibles and Indefatigables, sufficient armor to protect the ship from medium caliber shells (i.e. 6 inch armored belt) in exchange for additional speed (32 knots) which mounting a powerful main battery (six 15 inch guns in three twin turrets).  The class underwent several refits post WWI with a reconstruction in the 1920's bringing her armor up to the standard of HMS Lion.  

Anyway, there's a lot of material about real life British Battleships which are simply not in the game at this point so I would encourage WG to address these ships first before going to any great lengths to rearrange a set of paper and imaginary ships in the upper tiers. 

 

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32 minutes ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

Interesting. 

To be honest though, I'm more interested in the lower tier ships which are not yet in the game as well as some of the design studies which are still out there for some of the higher tier ships. 

For a list of the actual missing classes, here they are. 

Battleships: 

HMS Dreadnought:  First Dreadnought ever constructed.  Almost identical to the current T3 Battleships Bellerophon with the exception of her secondary battery which used twenty seven 3 inch guns rather than Bellerophon's 4 inch guns.

HMS St. Vincent 9U0ZND.jpg

HMS St Vincent: Identical layout to Dreadnought and Bellerophon but mounting the more accurate and powerful 50 caliber version of the 12 inch gun rather than the old 45 caliber version carried by her predecessors.

HMS Neptune CfU98x.jpg

The Neptunes featured a revised main battery layout similar to that adopted by several contemporary German battleships with superfiring guns aft, two turrets en echelon amidships and a single turret forward giving the vessel a potential 10 gun broadside rather than the maximum eight gun broadside of earlier vessels.  The protective scheme was  also improved over earlier vessels.

HMS Colossus dYQ4pV.jpg

Similar to the Neptune class, the Colossus's would be the last British Battleships to mount 12 inch guns.  Armored protection was improved in this class as were arrangements for more effective fire control. 

HMS King George V: y66TTw.jpg

This is not the KGV Tier VIII battleship currently in the game but is instead her predecessor which served with the Royal Navy during WWII and which was later scrapped in the 1920's to comply with the terms of the Washington Naval Treaty.   

The King George V's were enlarged and improved versions of the T4 Battleship Orion which is currently in the game.  Main improvements included an more complete and effective armoring scheme as well as enhanced fire control systems. 

HMS Agincourt: LpjK5d.jpg

Agincourt was a battleship originally ordered by the Brazilian government but then sold to Turkey while still under construction.  The vessel was seized by the British in a nearly complete condition and added to the Royal Navy.  

Agincourt was a unique vessel carrying fourteen 12 inch 50 caliber guns in seven twin turrets (the most heavy guns carried by any battleship ever constructed).  She also mounted a heavy secondary battery of 6 inch guns in favor of the 4 inch guns typical of most British Dreadnoughts built before her. 

She was generally faster than the other battleships of the Royal Navy (with the exception of the Queen Elizabeths) but her protective scheme was weaker and used an armoring scheme more reminiscent of battleships of the Pre-Dreadnought era. 

HMS Erin  wwexxY.jpg

Erin was another vessel being built for Turkey which was nearing completion upon the outbreak of WWI which the British siezed and incorporated into the Royal navy.  Her design was based on that of the King George V but incorporated the 6 inch gun secondary battery of the Iron Dukes and featured an improved armoring scheme. 

HMS Canada: PeHajI.jpg

 Originally one of two battleships ordered by Chile, the Canada was purchased by the Royal Navy as she neared completion and incorporated into the Royal Navy.  Unlike the contemporary battleships of the Royal Navy which shipped a 13.5 inch 45 caliber gun, the Canada mounted a more powerful battery of ten 14 inch 45 caliber weapons in five twin turrets. 

Like Agincourt and Erin, the Canada was faster than the other battleships of the Royal Navy at that time, with the exception of the Queen Elizabeths, but carried less armor that her contempories carrying a protective scheme more reminiscent of a Pre-Dreadnought battleship. 

HMS Revenge:  iCorcC.jpg

Similar to the Queen Elizabeths but, with a potential conflict looming with Germany, were designed with speed of construction and costliness in mind. These ships carried the same main battery of the Queen Elizabeth but on a somewhat smaller and better protected hull.  The Revenges also did not dedicate as much space for their engines and propulsion and were therefor a bit slower than the Queen Elizabeths. 

HMS Vanguard: qGlWgZ.jpg

You already have her on your list, but just briefly, the Vanguard as essentially a Lion Class Battleship designed to speed construction by substituting eight 15 inch guns left over from the conversions of HMS Glorious and HMS Courageous into aircraft carriers for the triple 16 inch gun turrets intended for the other Lions. 

Battlecruisers: 

HMS Invincible: L9jq0P.jpg

The First Battlecruiser, the invincibles were essentially fast (25 knot) armored cruisers (6 inch armored belt) but carrying battleship caliber weapons (eight 12 inch 45 caliber guns).   The main battery was mounted in one twin turret forward, one twin turret aft and two amidship turrets arranged en echelon giving the ship a potential eight gun broadside. 

HMS Indefatigable: ULGTYx.jpg

Indefatigable was an enlarged Invincible design with the most significant improvement being the increased separation of the amidships guns giving then better firing arcs to the opposite beam that had been possible with the Invincible.  

HMS Lion : pBNiGT.jpg

A significant step forward over earlier Battlecruisers.  The Lion's were significantly larger than the earlier battlecruisers and could generate a superior top speed of 27.5 knots. The main battery was improved to mount eight of the new 13.5 inch 45 caliber guns used on contemporary battleships.  In addition, the Lions carried enhanced armored protection being similar to what one might have found on a Pre-Dreadnought battleship which was a considerable improvement.

HMS Queen Marry: aNkjpX.jpg

A slightly enlarged and faster (28 knot) version of the earlier Lion class.  

HMS Tiger: WGCgnP.jpg

A follow on improvement of the Queen Mary class with the primary difference being the movement of the amidships twin 13.5 inch gun turret from between the two funnels to the aft of them giving those guns a considerably improved firing arc.  Fire control systems were also substantially improved with this class

HMS Renown: 7m5z8E.jpg

The Renowns returned to the original battlecruiser concept of the earlier Invincibles and Indefatigables, sufficient armor to protect the ship from medium caliber shells (i.e. 6 inch armored belt) in exchange for additional speed (32 knots) which mounting a powerful main battery (six 15 inch guns in three twin turrets).  The class underwent several refits post WWI with a reconstruction in the 1920's bringing her armor up to the standard of HMS Lion.  

Anyway, there's a lot of material about real life British Battleships which are simply not in the game at this point so I would encourage WG to address these ships first before going to any great lengths to rearrange a set of paper and imaginary ships in the upper tiers. 

 

 

The whole focus of the proposal was about getting RN BB's out of their HE only meta, that requires doing something about the very lackluster AP performance at tiers 5, 7, and 8, and tweaking 6, 9 and 10. Hence the focus on a re-arrange there.I left the BC's out specifically because i think there's room to build an entire line out of them separately. Also WG;ing have come out and said if they put another line in it MUST go to T10. Ergo your going to have to have some paper in any new line proposal no mater what, with the possibble exception of a BC line thats brought in as cruisers.


EDIT: Hit post too soon :(.

 

Nice list though and there's several on there besides the BC's that i'm certain we'll get as premiums at some point or other, the main problem for many is that they're just a slight variant on an existing ship so outside of HMS Dreadnought who's a very famous ship they're not going to be justifiable.

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24 minutes ago, Carl said:

Also WG;ing have come out and said if they put another line in it MUST go to T10. Ergo your going to have to have some paper in any new line proposal no mater what, with the possibble exception of a BC line thats brought in as cruisers.

I don't see this happening. The last battlecruiser designs ever produced by the British to anything other than a concept study level were the G3 class, which were fast battleships in every way that mattered. There's nothing after 1922, unless you count the modernised Renown or Repulse, leaving the other one to take a lower slot in her as-built configuration.

Given that there aren't even any built-in-steel heavy cruisers to fill in for the British at top tier, a battlecruiser line for the Royal Navy is going to be almost as paper as the Russian battleships. A similar problem occurs at higher tiers, because the number of classes actually built in later years was minimal; the design studies that resulted in the G3's and eventually in Rodney and Nelson turned out a huge volume of work, but most of it is either 16 inch gunned which is already covered by Nelson (though G3 could fit in at Tier 9 given her design speed), or 18 inch gunned (e.g. N3, L2) requiring a shift to Tier 9 or 10 and a re-imagining of their secondary and AA armaments as for Conqueror.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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48 minutes ago, Carl said:

 

The whole focus of the proposal was about getting RN BB's out of their HE only meta, that requires doing something about the very lackluster AP performance at tiers 5, 7, and 8, and tweaking 6, 9 and 10. Hence the focus on a re-arrange there.I left the BC's out specifically because i think there's room to build an entire line out of them separately. Also WG;ing have come out and said if they put another line in it MUST go to T10. Ergo your going to have to have some paper in any new line proposal no mater what, with the possibble exception of a BC line thats brought in as cruisers.


EDIT: Hit post too soon :(.

 

Nice list though and there's several on there besides the BC's that i'm certain we'll get as premiums at some point or other, the main problem for many is that they're just a slight variant on an existing ship so outside of HMS Dreadnought who's a very famous ship they're not going to be justifiable.

Well, the British Meta is the gimmick.  HE shells that set fire to everything at their merest touch, Battleships which have no actually "stealth" features in rl being almost invisible in game, armor which was truly exceptional being nerfed at higher tiers making the ships exceedingly fragile, super heal, x-ray vision, can leap tall buildings in a single bound ... stuffs like that. 

The way to change the meta is to give them the qualities these ships had in real life rather than to make them what they are currently ingame, just a series of on huge perpetual gimmicks run wild. 

That, however, is not going to happen.  WG has committed itself to the gimmick with this entire national branch and they aren't going to do anything to change it significantly because they want each national line to have a distinct "flavor" and they've already established what that flavor is with the British lines. 

I certainly understand the need for some paper at the higher tiers of this line if you were going to create a split line, however there is quite a few designs out there which were considered by the Royal Navy both before and after both the Washington and London Naval Treaties, like an enlarged Hood but mounting 18 inch guns rather than 15 inchers, a few battleship and battlecruiser proposals with resemble Dunkerque and Richelieu but with 16 inch and 18 inch guns receptively. There are also some designs which it was intended to mount a more powerful 15 inch/50 caliber gun than the 15 inch 42 caliber gun currently seen in the game. If someone was looking for mid to upper tier paper, there's actually a lot to choose from with these designs.  

As far as the rest, well certainly Agincourt  and Canada are significantly different from other battleships currently in game.  Neptune is certainly a good deal different from either the Orions or the Bellerophons and the difference between the 12 inch 50 caliber guns of St. Vincent as opposed to Bellerophon is actually fairly substantial   Erin is like a faster less well protected version of Iron Duke and in fact there is probably more differentiation between these two ships than there is between Orion and Iron Duke which are already on the tech tree.  You can certainly fairly easily find RL ships between the Battleships and Battlecruisers which are not in game to build a disctinctive base of a second tech tree from Tier III up to at least Tier VI or so and some decent paper designs which are very dissimilar from those already in the tree to build beyond that.   

I do understand where you are coming from though as I too would like to see the reign of fire that is UK BB's come to an end. 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel

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How about they just redo the line with fixed citadels, decent AP and realistic concealment. 

That line would be far more enjoyable and far less bullsnot!

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I'm for it!
The Royal Navy is really in a weird place when it comes to ship configurations. A lot of them are more battlecruisers than purebred battleships but since we don't have a battlecruiser line WG is just stuffing them into the mainline battleship and there we go. 
A split would be more reflective of the navy's ship design philosophy. 

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1 hour ago, LancasterOne said:

I'm for it!
The Royal Navy is really in a weird place when it comes to ship configurations. A lot of them are more battlecruisers than purebred battleships but since we don't have a battlecruiser line WG is just stuffing them into the mainline battleship and there we go. 
A split would be more reflective of the navy's ship design philosophy. 

Just one note. 

The current British Battleship line contains no Battlecruisers, just Battleships.  The only exception would be the Hood which is a premium ship.  However by the time all the alterations were made to her armor during construction, when she finally went into service she would have battleship quality armor and this would be improved during her various refits over her life. 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel

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I can't really countenance any line that retains Monarch, it's just... eww.

I think a Nelson with toned down HE would still be a viable T7. AP overmatch takes care of a lot of penetration woes at that tier and she's very good and at 'only' 1.9 sigma (Nagato still gets 2.0).

Nerfing the HE and giving the AP some plus points - such as DoY's improved angles without the (I agree net negative) short fuses is also a possibility, and one I'd strongly prefer to rather forcing a T5 Repulse into the line or either of them. You can also 'just add krupp' if you want, heck it's done on the IJN 16.1in, Des Moines' AP etc. etc. I also think Queen Elizabeth is too poor to be saved by 3.3'/s traverse instead of 2.5'/s.

The 'B' line is unattractive compared to a battlecruiser line.

 

2 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I don't see this happening. The last battlecruiser designs ever produced by the British to anything other than a concept study level were the G3 class, which were fast battleships in every way that mattered. There's nothing after 1922, unless you count the modernised Renown or Repulse, leaving the other one to take a lower slot in her as-built configuration.

Given that there aren't even any built-in-steel heavy cruisers to fill in for the British at top tier, a battlecruiser line for the Royal Navy is going to be almost as paper as the Russian battleships.

Well, didn't stop them on French cruisers, or more recently the Japanese Paperkaze and Fantagumo.

The RN BC line could readily include an Indefatigable, Queen Mary, Tiger, Repulse and Hood vs. er. a Gangut? as built ships.

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6 hours ago, Dr_Venture said:

How about they just redo the line with fixed citadels, decent AP and realistic concealment. 

That line would be far more enjoyable and far less bullsnot!

 

There is no way to give them decent AP though, their statistics are historical and WG'ing hasn't changed that since the closed beta days, (AFAIK the last examples put in game where the US 14" early guns found on NY/Texas/Arizona and the IJN 14" guns found on Kongo/Fuso, neitheir opf which would actually be all that terrible with realistic numbers).

 

The only way your going to get decent AP is to downtier things to tiers where their AP has the right pen level to compete.

 

6 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I don't see this happening. The last battlecruiser designs ever produced by the British to anything other than a concept study level were the G3 class, which were fast battleships in every way that mattered. There's nothing after 1922, unless you count the modernised Renown or Repulse, leaving the other one to take a lower slot in her as-built configuration.

Given that there aren't even any built-in-steel heavy cruisers to fill in for the British at top tier, a battlecruiser line for the Royal Navy is going to be almost as paper as the Russian battleships. A similar problem occurs at higher tiers, because the number of classes actually built in later years was minimal; the design studies that resulted in the G3's and eventually in Rodney and Nelson turned out a huge volume of work, but most of it is either 16 inch gunned which is already covered by Nelson (though G3 could fit in at Tier 9 given her design speed), or 18 inch gunned (e.g. N3, L2) requiring a shift to Tier 9 or 10 and a re-imagining of their secondary and AA armaments as for Conqueror.

 

Depends how they go about it. I mean let me throw a really extreme example out there for T9/10 in an Rn BC line. Lets call this cruiser line C, (i'm assuming the B line will be heavy cruisers, with the churchill supercruiser's at 8-9-10), Their gimmick would be receiving MBRM cruiser lite consumables, (including a copy of french 20% cruiser speed boost and RN CL/DD turning speed retention), and the quick heal. Quick heal becomes criser super heal at T9 and MBRM changes from recently changed JB model to an improved model with lowered cooldown and -75% reload reduction for 40 seconds.

 

That means Renown at T9 has 77k health, cruiser DCP/Fire duration Half cruiser dispersion, (similar to Spee but halfway between RN BB and RN Cruiser), 6x15" BL MkI guns with 30 second base reload, (26.4 with MBM3, going to 7.5/6.6 with MBRB up), Super Repair, french Cruiser speed boost on 35 knots base top speed (42 knots with speed boost up), Rn CL/DD turning with a choice of Long lasting cruiser Hydro or disruption only DF in the final slot.

 

T10 would be an L2 variant, basically a slightly stretched admiral fitted with twin 16" turrets in AB-XY arrangement, and in line with conqueror modernised to have 4.5" 10x2 Neptune secondaries, multiple Minotaur type 76mm light AA, and the 16" guns off the lion base config, with the same 35 knot top speed and consumables as Renown.

 

4 hours ago, mofton said:

I can't really countenance any line that retains Monarch, it's just... eww.

I think a Nelson with toned down HE would still be a viable T7. AP overmatch takes care of a lot of penetration woes at that tier and she's very good and at 'only' 1.9 sigma (Nagato still gets 2.0).

Nerfing the HE and giving the AP some plus points - such as DoY's improved angles without the (I agree net negative) short fuses is also a possibility, and one I'd strongly prefer to rather forcing a T5 Repulse into the line or either of them. You can also 'just add krupp' if you want, heck it's done on the IJN 16.1in, Des Moines' AP etc. etc. I also think Queen Elizabeth is too poor to be saved by 3.3'/s traverse instead of 2.5'/s.

The 'B' line is unattractive compared to a battlecruiser line.

 

Well, didn't stop them on French cruisers, or more recently the Japanese Paperkaze and Fantagumo.

The RN BC line could readily include an Indefatigable, Queen Mary, Tiger, Repulse and Hood vs. er. a Gangut? as built ships.

 

Hit post too soon again :(>

 

Neither DM nor Izumo have buffed Krupp compared to other ships.

 

As far as repulse goes, well if you can suggest an alternative T5 i'd go for it, only option i can see is the revenge class, but shoehorning them in would be a real headache balance wise. But messing with the angles isn't really gonna help, the reason people shoto HE at BB's so much in many RN BB''s is they fla out lack the penetration at realistic combat ranges to penetrate the main belt for even a lightly angled BB. All better fuze angles do is let them spank cruisers harder than they allready do with impunity. If you want to get people firing lots of AP you've got to help the performance vs BB's, not cruisers, and penetration and normal fuzes are the only ways to do that.

 

I kept Monarch because WG'ing aren't going to just throw her away, so i had to find a way to use her. Give Rodney the proposed US refit with the seconders replaced with 6x2 5"/38 cal mounts and at the same time refit her hoist to handle the proposed but never built heavier 16" AP and she'd make a fine tough line BB would be fine, (Mv/Mass/drag are/should all be equivalent to Nagato AP). Also I agree a rotation change probably won't fix QE, but he quick heal very well might, she's not in a good place though i admit.

 

The B lien is not meant to be a BC line, it;s meant to be a minimum modeling work split that give two different more AP centric BB lines, a full BC line would be either a C Battleship line or C Cruiser line with a lot more brand new ships dropped in. The only reason to go with two lines is that to make it work you've got to downtier KGV, do that and you have to find a way to use QE and balance KGV a tier lower. I wanted the minimum of ships moved to premium status, and then once i;d done that i had to get everything into a full top T10 line. If they were willing to throw KGV into a premium slot they could dispense with the B line eitierly. it only exists because KGV has to be radically different to follow on BB's to work at T6.

 

 

6 hours ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

Well, the British Meta is the gimmick.  HE shells that set fire to everything at their merest touch, Battleships which have no actually "stealth" features in rl being almost invisible in game, armor which was truly exceptional being nerfed at higher tiers making the ships exceedingly fragile, super heal, x-ray vision, can leap tall buildings in a single bound ... stuffs like that. 

The way to change the meta is to give them the qualities these ships had in real life rather than to make them what they are currently ingame, just a series of on huge perpetual gimmicks run wild. 

That, however, is not going to happen.  WG has committed itself to the gimmick with this entire national branch and they aren't going to do anything to change it significantly because they want each national line to have a distinct "flavor" and they've already established what that flavor is with the British lines. 

I certainly understand the need for some paper at the higher tiers of this line if you were going to create a split line, however there is quite a few designs out there which were considered by the Royal Navy both before and after both the Washington and London Naval Treaties, like an enlarged Hood but mounting 18 inch guns rather than 15 inchers, a few battleship and battlecruiser proposals with resemble Dunkerque and Richelieu but with 16 inch and 18 inch guns receptively. There are also some designs which it was intended to mount a more powerful 15 inch/50 caliber gun than the 15 inch 42 caliber gun currently seen in the game. If someone was looking for mid to upper tier paper, there's actually a lot to choose from with these designs.  

As far as the rest, well certainly Agincourt  and Canada are significantly different from other battleships currently in game.  Neptune is certainly a good deal different from either the Orions or the Bellerophons and the difference between the 12 inch 50 caliber guns of St. Vincent as opposed to Bellerophon is actually fairly substantial   Erin is like a faster less well protected version of Iron Duke and in fact there is probably more differentiation between these two ships than there is between Orion and Iron Duke which are already on the tech tree.  You can certainly fairly easily find RL ships between the Battleships and Battlecruisers which are not in game to build a disctinctive base of a second tech tree from Tier III up to at least Tier VI or so and some decent paper designs which are very dissimilar from those already in the tree to build beyond that.   

I do understand where you are coming from though as I too would like to see the reign of fire that is UK BB's come to an end. 

 

They have the qualities they had IRL, thats the reason they;re gimmicky. in real life they had terrible AP and amazing HE. The only unrealistic things are the repair party and the lowered citadels, neither of which is unique to RN BB's.

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Certainly a unique proposal, but I can't see the advantages of it to just straight out editing the existing line, especially considering how much would go into it. 

Removing the 1/4 HE and restoring the AP to normal standard is certainly the right start, taking one of the trifecta of the powerful HE away, while giving the AP more use. If you want to go all in, remove the 1,000 alpha buff to the HE or add better bounce angles to the AP (sort of akin to Duke of York the cruiser like BB things). 

However, after that, the line changes don't really make much sense. Why add a faster Repulse inbetween the 22.5kn Iron Duke and 23.5kn QE? A sudden chop and change for the line at T5, before reverting to more familiar QE seems very odd. The 15" AP is certainly excellent for the tier, but the 13.5 on Iron Duke is nothing to sniff at really. If the AP needs to be propped up, then do it via bounce angles preferably. Plus, I would seem to think a T5 premium Repulse is more likely.

As for the changes to the rest of the main line, (or as I would call it, Fast BB), QE can get that much needed turret traverse buff. Monarch doesn't need a downtier, she needs to be sent back through the gates of hell to where she belongs and was created (smelted together in spark and flame from KGV,/DoY Belfast & Nelson). A model she may be, but by model standards, she is bad. Maybe try and pass her off as a premium with a better rendition of Design 15C. Personally, I see the T7 spot open for the autumn 1915 Admiral class preliminary, BB Design A. Essentially a larger, longer, faster QE. As planned, 31,000 tons, 26.5/27 knot speed, and a 5" secondary battery being the main differences. I would imagine it would inherit the rebuild of QE, the gunnery, and it would probably be an excuse to use the Mk.II turret for the 15"/42 outside of Hood and the Admirals. This ship, potentially named 'Devastation', plays into the line quite well.

Of course I'm not budging from the opinion of KGV being the T8. Currently, she and Lyon are locked in a 2 horse race to see which can outperform the other, surpassing many T7 premiums. I won't go over the details, but KGV would make a fine T8 once WG fix her ammunition, and give her a few comfort buffs. A nerfed Lion at T8 would also do the job, but is the more boring and uninspired choice. Perhaps the WG version of Lion 1939 can be replaced by Lion 1942 design under the name Temeraire, as tougher T9. I would prefer for Conqueror to not be cloned and split between 457 and 419. Ideally, the 419s would just be removed from her altogether. The 457s aren't bad guns afterall. 

 

The B line you suggest doesn't look like a viable alternative to me. Just a single real ship with KGV, and then followed by 1 what if Admiral and 3 fakes. This single line would equal the nation with the most fake ships in game currently (that being Germany), say nothing for the retention of Mongrel and Coloniser. Maybe it isn't a priority for everyone, but stocking up on high tier fake WG designed RN BBs is not exactly my idea of good game design. The cruiser type BBs a la 1st iteration Duke of York can be saved for a different line or branch, one where differentiation may be more difficult, perhaps RN BCs with added main gun reload booster. 

Spoiler

BC line:

III: Invincible
IV: Lion
V: Tiger
VI: Renown
VII: 'Howe' aka. Admiral with rebuilt hull
VIII: 'Magnificent' aka. J3
IX: 'Trafalgar' aka. G3
X: 'Triumph' aka. K3/H3/I3

Traits of the line would be the lack of the repair party until T8, the lower tiers receive a main gun reload booster instead, while the higher tiers get it in addition. DCP can be like Warspite. Hydro is added in from T5, but I am not exactly a fan of def AA making an appearance. 

Speed and lack of staying power mostly define the line. Firepower is good, but the HE has no specialities, and hopefully with decent AP performance (accuracy, reload, bounce angles), relying on the reload booster and fire chance is ineffective. 

 

Ideally, the RN BB line can be fixed or rebalanced with just one new model and Mongrel being sidelined. It could be done even without that, but I'll take any chance to bash the Frankenstein's monster. A proposed split could come from a different line though, BCs, or slow RN BBs, which focus more on being able to take a beating, with good armament proportionately for the tier. However, they are inflexible and not especially stubborn to sink, with some portions of above water citadel. 

 

Spoiler

Slow BB line 'Battlewagons':

III: St Vincent
IV: Orion (Colossus takes current slot)
V: Centurion
VI: Revenge
VII: Nelson or Rodney
VIII: 'Ocean' aka. M2
IX: 'Albion' aka. N3
X: 'Vengeance' aka. L3

 

Traits of this line would be having better firepower and guns than the other two lines, and normally thicker armour, although not by much. The high tiers have a citadel height half that of Nelson's currently over the machinery areas, so from T7/8, the RN improved HP repair is introduced to give the ships sticking power. 

The main downside here is that the ships have a proportionately slower speed that tops out at 27 knots with the T10. This gives them something of a flexibility disadvantgage which balances out the superior firepower. I'm undecided for any other consumables, perhaps a modified DCP, or increased extremity armour for better resilience to supplement the HP repair. 

For completions sake, have the regular line as I would edit it:

Spoiler

RN Fast BBs: 

III: Bellerophon
IV: Colossus
V: Iron Duke 
VI: Queen Elizabeth
VII: 'Devastation' aka. modernised design A 1915
VIII: King George V
IX: 'Temeraire' aka. Lion 1939/1942 design
X: ' Conqueror' aka. The mega-Vanguard WG created that we all know and love

 

Bellerophon could be reigned in, nerfed speed to 20.7 knots, or firing range. Turret traverse can be made more friendly.
Colossus is RN Kaiser, less well protected, not much to really say other than that.
Iron Duke, gib historical hull plox. Perhaps small speed buff to 23kn and turret traverse being made comfortable.
QE, again, turret traverse buff. She'll never be Warspite, but at least she won't be anaemic. 
Devastation; Hood x QE.

Apologies if I seem to be forcing ideas, I have tried to combine unique gameplay, progression, and historical merit into fleshing out 3 lines for RN BBs

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1 hour ago, Trainspite said:

Certainly a unique proposal, but I can't see the advantages of it to just straight out editing the existing line, especially considering how much would go into it. 

Removing the 1/4 HE and restoring the AP to normal standard is certainly the right start, taking one of the trifecta of the powerful HE away, while giving the AP more use. If you want to go all in, remove the 1,000 alpha buff to the HE or add better bounce angles to the AP (sort of akin to Duke of York the cruiser like BB things). 

However, after that, the line changes don't really make much sense. Why add a faster Repulse inbetween the 22.5kn Iron Duke and 23.5kn QE? A sudden chop and change for the line at T5, before reverting to more familiar QE seems very odd. The 15" AP is certainly excellent for the tier, but the 13.5 on Iron Duke is nothing to sniff at really. If the AP needs to be propped up, then do it via bounce angles preferably. Plus, I would seem to think a T5 premium Repulse is more likely.

As for the changes to the rest of the main line, (or as I would call it, Fast BB), QE can get that much needed turret traverse buff. Monarch doesn't need a downtier, she needs to be sent back through the gates of hell to where she belongs and was created (smelted together in spark and flame from KGV,/DoY Belfast & Nelson). A model she may be, but by model standards, she is bad. Maybe try and pass her off as a premium with a better rendition of Design 15C. Personally, I see the T7 spot open for the autumn 1915 Admiral class preliminary, BB Design A. Essentially a larger, longer, faster QE. As planned, 31,000 tons, 26.5/27 knot speed, and a 5" secondary battery being the main differences. I would imagine it would inherit the rebuild of QE, the gunnery, and it would probably be an excuse to use the Mk.II turret for the 15"/42 outside of Hood and the Admirals. This ship, potentially named 'Devastation', plays into the line quite well.

Of course I'm not budging from the opinion of KGV being the T8. Currently, she and Lyon are locked in a 2 horse race to see which can outperform the other, surpassing many T7 premiums. I won't go over the details, but KGV would make a fine T8 once WG fix her ammunition, and give her a few comfort buffs. A nerfed Lion at T8 would also do the job, but is the more boring and uninspired choice. Perhaps the WG version of Lion 1939 can be replaced by Lion 1942 design under the name Temeraire, as tougher T9. I would prefer for Conqueror to not be cloned and split between 457 and 419. Ideally, the 419s would just be removed from her altogether. The 457s aren't bad guns afterall. 

 

The B line you suggest doesn't look like a viable alternative to me. Just a single real ship with KGV, and then followed by 1 what if Admiral and 3 fakes. This single line would equal the nation with the most fake ships in game currently (that being Germany), say nothing for the retention of Mongrel and Coloniser. Maybe it isn't a priority for everyone, but stocking up on high tier fake WG designed RN BBs is not exactly my idea of good game design. The cruiser type BBs a la 1st iteration Duke of York can be saved for a different line or branch, one where differentiation may be more difficult, perhaps RN BCs with added main gun reload booster. 

  Reveal hidden contents

BC line:

III: Invincible
IV: Lion
V: Tiger
VI: Renown
VII: 'Howe' aka. Admiral with rebuilt hull
VIII: 'Magnificent' aka. J3
IX: 'Trafalgar' aka. G3
X: 'Triumph' aka. K3/H3/I3

Traits of the line would be the lack of the repair party until T8, the lower tiers receive a main gun reload booster instead, while the higher tiers get it in addition. DCP can be like Warspite. Hydro is added in from T5, but I am not exactly a fan of def AA making an appearance. 

Speed and lack of staying power mostly define the line. Firepower is good, but the HE has no specialities, and hopefully with decent AP performance (accuracy, reload, bounce angles), relying on the reload booster and fire chance is ineffective. 

 

Ideally, the RN BB line can be fixed or rebalanced with just one new model and Mongrel being sidelined. It could be done even without that, but I'll take any chance to bash the Frankenstein's monster. A proposed split could come from a different line though, BCs, or slow RN BBs, which focus more on being able to take a beating, with good armament proportionately for the tier. However, they are inflexible and not especially stubborn to sink, with some portions of above water citadel. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Slow BB line 'Battlewagons':

III: St Vincent
IV: Orion (Colossus takes current slot)
V: Centurion
VI: Revenge
VII: Nelson or Rodney
VIII: 'Ocean' aka. M2
IX: 'Albion' aka. N3
X: 'Vengeance' aka. L3

 

Traits of this line would be having better firepower and guns than the other two lines, and normally thicker armour, although not by much. The high tiers have a citadel height half that of Nelson's currently over the machinery areas, so from T7/8, the RN improved HP repair is introduced to give the ships sticking power. 

The main downside here is that the ships have a proportionately slower speed that tops out at 27 knots with the T10. This gives them something of a flexibility disadvantgage which balances out the superior firepower. I'm undecided for any other consumables, perhaps a modified DCP, or increased extremity armour for better resilience to supplement the HP repair. 

For completions sake, have the regular line as I would edit it:

  Reveal hidden contents

RN Fast BBs: 

III: Bellerophon
IV: Colossus
V: Iron Duke 
VI: Queen Elizabeth
VII: 'Devastation' aka. modernised design A 1915
VIII: King George V
IX: 'Temeraire' aka. Lion 1939/1942 design
X: ' Conqueror' aka. The mega-Vanguard WG created that we all know and love

 

Bellerophon could be reigned in, nerfed speed to 20.7 knots, or firing range. Turret traverse can be made more friendly.
Colossus is RN Kaiser, less well protected, not much to really say other than that.
Iron Duke, gib historical hull plox. Perhaps small speed buff to 23kn and turret traverse being made comfortable.
QE, again, turret traverse buff. She'll never be Warspite, but at least she won't be anaemic. 
Devastation; Hood x QE.

Apologies if I seem to be forcing ideas, I have tried to combine unique gameplay, progression, and historical merit into fleshing out 3 lines for RN BBs

 

You can fiddle with the bounce angles all you want, and fuse timers. KGV will never work above T6 as anything but a HE spammer. She's got the same pen curve (to within such a small margin of error to make no practical difference), as hood. You know the ship that per LWM's tests can;t go through a full broadside iowa at 12km. AP that can;t reliably go through moderately angle BB's at 15km basically isn't worth a fart n a windstorm above T6. That requires either overwatch potential, or around 440mm+ penetration, a full 100mm more than KGV packs.

 

Likewise there's no magical extra 1k HE damage on british BB shells, the values are historically acurratte using the reverse engineered formulae for all shells we have full data for, (and the rest are reasonably bearing in mind the % of shell weight as filler required compared to other BB HE.

 

And yes there would be a lot of paper. Guess what. You can't have viable AP and non-paper for RN above T6. Britain put exactly one gun to sea that does not have poor penetration by T5 standards. The 18" BL MkI aboard HMS Furious in two single mounts. The 15" BL MkI, 16" BL MkI and 14" Bl MkVII all share virtually identical penetration curves which put them on the low side for T5 and T6, thug still viable at those tiers due to the shorter engagement ranges that can and do occur.

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I could see a split involving battlecruisers capped off by some paper projects, and reigning in British HE is a noble goal. That said... KGV at tier 6? Mouse's Thunderer as a tier 9? Uh, no sir. I don't like it.

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