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tm63au

Gimmicks gimmicks Gimmicks

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Hi

Well WG have brought out a new toy for certain ships Main Gun Reload Booster, yes that's right folks there testing it on the French ships right now but don't worry I'm certain they will end on your favourite ship in the not to distant future knowing WG.

What is going on at Lesta  cant they design ships without gimmicks, I don't know about the  wider community thinks of this new gimmick  and it may be that I'm in the minority hear but i think this new module is horse manure. I would say something else  but the automatic THOUGHT POLICE would censer my writing and I might get a warning.

What happened to just plain old ships with guns and torpedoes and maybe some hydro and repair, to many gimmicks will cause system overload WG.  

So lets just take a look at the French ships first and form most they already have speed boost and giving them another gimmick  :Smile_facepalm: they go faster in reverse now without speed boost.

Jean Bart a battleship launched in 1940 but incomplete  but will be in game soon, nice lots of people salivating over the ship however there giving this module which technical in real life terms would probable be say 60's or 70's technology to a 1940's ships then have them face possible lower tiers ships from a even earlier time period is ludicrous.

French ships from what i gather are considered well designed  and don't need  any more gimmicks.

lets take a look at some ships WG designed that really dont have gimmicks.

Giulio Cesare a tier 5 Battleship that can face and a defeat a tier 7  battleship, it does not even have a float plane let alone any gimmick.

 Scharnhorst a 11 inch gun Battleship that can sink 16 inch gun Battleships  all it has is torpedoes and there not gimmicks that was its historical armament.

Fiji tech tree cruiser and considered better than its premium sister Belfast, Fiji has no HE  its smoke is now more or less redundant because of radar so no more gimmick there. 

Bismarck back in the day was considered OP I read LittleWhiteMouse's review  of her she has hydro which they NERFED so that counts that out now and her secondaries which were also NERFED some time back. 

There is probable  a long list of other ships I could mention but i will leave at that for that now.

So the fact is WG can produce great ships that don't need gimmicks so I am mystified why they are bringing out this new module, the way this game is heading is troubling.

I remember reading a post about WG trend towards Gimmicks last year by @Lert  and how he had concerns about it, things have not changed since then and it seems that the gimmicks keep rolling out.

regards

   

 

 

 

Edited by tm63au
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These new gimmicks also have me concerned!

As you mentioned, can't Wargaming just produce quality ships without the need for gimmicks?

I guess we'll have to see how this will balance out, Notser brings up the issue in the video below.

 

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It's a difficult balancing act to try and make new lines and ships different and interesting without simply being gimmicky. So far they had been doing okay, a little stumble here and there, but nothing too egregious. Then we start seeing MBRB being tested on, of all things, the French ships. A tree which, I would like to remind everyone, already has a decent gimmick in the form of "SPEED BOOST FOR EVERYONE!" that actually pairs quite nicely with their ships' stats and makes them fun to play. Now I'm not sure at this point if the Brennus, Jean Bart, and Bourgogne are anything more that test articles and, if they aren't, what the heck they plan on doing with them. I mean Jean Bart makes sense as a free XP boat, and Brennus or Bourgogne could be the French answer to Stalingrad and Salem, but not both of them. Something fishy is going on here and I don't like it. Are they just using these ships to test out the mod in the wild? If so, why have the Dev Blogs about the ships, and why these in particular? I can't see them all being released, but I can't see them not being released either. It's a paradox!

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That's always kind of the difficulty of doing a bunch of ships with different factions.  How do you get people to try them all if they're all the same?

On the other hand, too many gimmicks can result in haphazard balancing and (at worst) power creep.

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The main Battery reload isn't a 'gimmick' as such, it seems to be a nice extra layer of play that will allow skilled players the chance to get the most out of a ship. I think it's a good addition, certainly better than slapping another radar module on an under-performing and under-used ship to give it greater utility

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Here's the thing, and where I have an issue with MBRB. At one point, almost all of these gimmicks had a small scale test on the live server by us general players, where data was obtained, looked at, etc. I'll go through a few.

Smoke on Cruisers - That was UK's brand new gimmick on these ships that were like oversized DD's with citadel's right? Well, actually, it first appeared on a little ship called Iwaki Alpha. So, when they put smoke on those cruisers, they had some numbers and all to look at already. 

Additional modules when maybe low tiered or lacking something - Ark Beta showed that.

Torpedoes on BB's - Tirpitz.

AP bombs as we all know Big E.

Non uniform squadron numbers and different plane tiers - Saipan. 

Duke would have been great if her original plan gave an option for healing instead of DF AA (or better yet just remove DF AA cause we don't need yet more super AA BB's in game, or just have toned it down similar to CV DF AA that has a lower multiplier)

And plenty of others. 

A lot of the "gimmicks" started out tested on a premium ship, at the time one offs that paid for development by being sold unless they were given away. You look at a lot of them some random premium possibly of another nation had that gimmick. You gained real world data from more users, not just closed in supertest or internal testing. Cause there are things in those smaller tests that just aren't going to get spotted or found out.

Which is where my issue with MBRB is. This is the kind of thing that should go on a standalone premium first. Preferably trading out speed boost for the MBRB. Some paper design maybe that no one cares about or a lower tier ship that had 5 other sisters. 

Gimmicks themselves aren't bad, they keep things interesting and different - it's the gimmicky gimmicks that become issues if not handledright (torp reload, radar, etc)

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The reason I heard regarding MBRB was because French CA weren't popular. Then they decided to extend it to Jean Bart and Bougogne.

 

I can understand WG trying to implement new gimmick, especially nowadays.

If WG wants to introduce CA with really good AP pen ---> People will complain there the line will be a better /similar / worse US CA line.

If WG wants to introduce CA with really good HE --> People will complain the line will be a better / similar / worse IJN or French CA (On a side note, when WG introduce French CA I saw many people asking why should people play French CA as HE spammer when Zao is a better HE spammer )

If WG introduce CA with high AP velocity --> People will complain the line is similar / worse than Russian CA.

When WG first introduced Prinz Eugen, people said it was just a copy paste of Hipper. The ship has no gimmick or whatsoever, people weren't happy. Now they just added heal for this ship and everyone suddently love her ( And I must say she feels really comfortable to play with heal).

 

People will always find something to complain. If you add a broken gimmick, people will complain it's broken (obviously it's game breaking). If you add no gimmick, people will complain there is exactly NO GIMMICK and it is just a copy past of a ship. Also it depends on your definition of gimmick because if I take your example :

-GC is a pretty broken BB for her tier but yes she has no gimmick.

-Sharnhorst has 283mm guns which is probably her real life setting but remember this is a game, and for a BB, this is a low caliber gun. She also have torps which is once again unusual for a BB. In the end you can consider it as a gimmick.

-Fiji is a cruiser with smoke. That alone is a gimmick.

-Bismarck have hydro. It's a gimmick.

All those ship have their own tools and gimmick but they are balanced which is why no one really complain about them and just enjoy them as they are. And I'll add another one to the list of ship with good gimmick : Graf Spee. 

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I mind these gimmicks (reload booster, speed boost) less than the over simplified hard edged magic aura gimmicks (AA, smoke, radar, hydro) that are too passive rather than encouraging greater player input. In fact, I have become a fan of speed boost.

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I am summoned ...

While I do still have the same concerns regarding gimmicks and I'd rather they balance a ship on merits of the ship itself, I have less of a problem with things like speed boost, MBRB and similar than with, as @DarthZeppelin calls them, 'magic aura' type consumables. At east speed boost and MBRB rely on player skill to use effectively.

I'm following this trend with concern as well.

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I'm no fan of the 'gimmick' either.  I remember reading/hearing somewhere that in exchange for the MBRB, the French ships will get a small DPM nerf.  This I'm not in favor of.  I like the French cruisers as they tend to be well balanced (good AP, good HE, serviceable torps, good maneuverability).  Now this gimmick will likely upset that balance.  I'd rather keep the good DPM and eschew the highly situational gimmick.  

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6 minutes ago, ZARDOZ_II said:

I'm no fan of the 'gimmick' either.  I remember reading/hearing somewhere that in exchange for the MBRB, the French ships will get a small DPM nerf.  This I'm not in favor of.  I like the French cruisers as they tend to be well balanced (good AP, good HE, serviceable torps, good maneuverability).  Now this gimmick will likely upset that balance.  I'd rather keep the good DPM and eschew the highly situational gimmick.  

    This one has me torn, I didn't find French cruisers a hard line to grind, but by nerfing ROF some and adding the consumable they actually are rewarding players who can position or play better with those burst rates and they are punishing people who either over extend (because we need more passive play) or can't juggle consumables right or don't position right and open themselves up to AP. I would always prefer a balanced line and soft stat adjustment over a consumable generally speaking, but this one is not so bad IMO. The trend as a whole and what sometimes comes off as an unoriginal and possibly heavy handed fixes for some things in the form of 'gimmick' I don't particularly like. But that's honestly me just saying I don't like ships that aren't balanced, be it via stats or consumables or the combination. 

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Eventually the new gimmick will be removing gimmicks - like no speed boost for RN DD....

"What's the gimmick?

"It has none!"

"Oooh, so excited to try it!"

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53 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

I mind these gimmicks (reload booster, speed boost) less than the over simplified hard edged magic aura gimmicks (AA, smoke, radar, hydro) that are too passive rather than encouraging greater player input. In fact, I have become a fan of speed boost.

    The RADAR part I can somewhat understand as its generally easy enough to use on most maps without exposing ones self if you try. Hydro though? You are almost always exposed in some way when you use it offensively by either being in a smoke cloud which people will no doubt lob torps at mercilessly or they will RADAR you or some bigger fish with a better hydro will come for you. If nothing you are forced to be within the relatively close confines of its reach to use it, which in itself tends to put you at risk. Though I will say I think its one of the more under utilized consumables that if used correctly in the defensive setting can be quite the 'don't torp me' security blanket … and who doesn't like a nice blanket.

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In my "opinion", AlcatrazNC has said it well. There are "always" people complaining no matter what they do and it usually ends up being nothing at all (Asashio - people freaked out, but it fizzled out, no one cares about Asashio being OP or not). No one is perfect but I think WG works hard to make money with this game and they can't make money if they break it. "In my opinion", just sit back and watch and enjoy the show, everything will be alright. ;)

But hey, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Peace! :)

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I would like to see all the gimmicks available to every ship. DD's and CV's get 1, Cruisers 2 and BB's get 2. Certain combinations wont be available, like smoke and radar on the same ship. This would introduce some variables, there would be no way of knowing what a player had on their ship, it would allow players some extra customization of their ship.

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14 minutes ago, Alabamastan said:

    The RADAR part I can somewhat understand as its generally easy enough to use on most maps without exposing ones self if you try. Hydro though? You are almost always exposed in some way when you use it offensively by either being in a smoke cloud which people will no doubt lob torps at mercilessly or they will RADAR you or some bigger fish with a better hydro will come for you. If nothing you are forced to be within the relatively close confines of its reach to use it, which in itself tends to put you at risk. Though I will say I think its one of the more under utilized consumables that if used correctly in the defensive setting can be quite the 'don't torp me' security blanket … and who doesn't like a nice blanket.

Hydro really isn't an offensive ability on most ships. The only boats that can say they use it offensively are Greman DD because of the detection/range mix. 

There is basically no real way to turn say Brit DD or Haida hydro into truly offensive hydro applications, its just too short range.

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4 minutes ago, Canadatron said:

Hydro really isn't an offensive ability on most ships. The only boats that can say they use it offensively are Greman DD because of the detection/range mix. 

There is basically no real way to turn say Brit DD or Haida hydro into truly offensive hydro applications, its just too short range.

Yeah, I play German DD's, Loyang would be another.

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@tm63au if you don't like the new consumables that were tested in PT 7.8 then don't use them! I tried the gun and the torp reload booster and was not at all impressed by either.

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1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

I would like to see all the gimmicks available to every ship. DD's and CV's get 1, Cruisers 2 and BB's get 2. Certain combinations wont be available, like smoke and radar on the same ship. This would introduce some variables, there would be no way of knowing what a player had on their ship, it would allow players some extra customization of their ship.

 

I actually like this idea. I'd add that certain consumables wouldn't be available on certain classes. BBs not getting hydro for example, given amount of machinery noise on a BB, hydro would barely work anyway. (see certain USN CV's that had sonar installations, later removed, in RL) Smoke on a BB would be handy if you really needed to go dark to repair or were getting seriously focused. MBRB on a BB.. uh, no. You can't just throw hoist equipment into overdrive when handling 2klbs of payload, thats flippin STUPID.

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I dislike the gimmicks as well but they do serve a purpose. Right now with all these ships having gimmicks which one is "best" is very subjective & situational. Strip them away & the "best" ship becomes empirical & before you know it everyone will be in a Zao or Hindy or what have you losing allot of the color & flavor of WoWs. 

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This should be deja vu to many of you....  Think WoTs.

Gimmicks are sales engines towards a pure arcade game....  WG realizes that "history" has limitations based on reality.  Now, that works to start a new game but there's no room to expand the player base to newer generations that haven't even studied the early 20th century, let alone WW2....  All of their grand or great grand parents are gone now.....  The baby boomers are left and they are either in WoWs for historical reasons or the want the meta excitement of the gimmicks....

WoTs lost the former en masse and courted the later.....  I worked there and it is working here.............so, get ready because radar is a marketing gimmick for an era expansion into the 1950's and 1960's as WG is looking for some Blue Ocean and newer, younger players.  Be prepared to suspend everything historic you value because if it increases the arcade sale projections, so shall it be done....   And, as before, all of us that "value" WG's original "Value Proposition" will have to make a choice: stay and play a lot less or, as in WoTs......leave.

It's that simple.                 

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Eugen's release version proved that name recognition and historical model differences weren't enough to sell a ship. They need to bring new gameplay with them. And those differences need to be large enough that people notice them... and as you may know, people are really bad at noticing things. So the differences need to be big. By the 4th or 5th time they have to come up with something, it tends to end up involving some kind of push-button ability.

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5 hours ago, Lert said:

I am summoned ...

While I do still have the same concerns regarding gimmicks and I'd rather they balance a ship on merits of the ship itself, I have less of a problem with things like speed boost, MBRB and similar than with, as @DarthZeppelin calls them, 'magic aura' type consumables. At east speed boost and MBRB rely on player skill to use effectively.

I'm following this trend with concern as well.

Kind of like adding a LoS ignoring hard counter "gimmick" to cruisers to make them more playable instead of nerfing the actual "sniper tank" ship that made them unplayable in the first place.

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7 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

Kind of like adding a LoS ignoring hard counter "gimmick" to cruisers to make them more playable instead of nerfing the actual "sniper tank" ship that made them unplayable in the first place.

No, it's better you have this to complain about. If it wasn't radar Los, you'd find something else in a hurry. 

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