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The_Invisible_Swordsman

Has This Radar Change Been Previously Suggested?

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I apologize in advance for continuing to beat to death (and beyond) the horse that is radar...and for missing any prior posting of my suggested revision. I've read a lot of posts on radar but there are too many to read them all, so I might have missed someone else making this suggestion. 

SUGGESTED REVISION: Splitting Radar Detection into 2 Detection Ranges: (a) Mini-Map Detection and (b) map draw detection

Right now, when radar detects a ship, it simultaneously detects it for mini-map purposes AND makes the ship appear on the regular map. The suggested change would split radar detection in two. Devs would look at radar ships and ADD 1-2km of detection range to existing radars for purposes of putting an in-range ship on the mini map...so the radar ship and its team would know there was a DD there and could start making taking actions based on that (start evasive dodging, decide to send ships to actively hunt the DD, etc.). They could even take some pot shots based on the mini-map location. On the other hand, all existing radars would have 1-2km in REDUCTION to the range that  they completely draw a detected ship onto the map. 

EXAMPLE: A 9.45 km range radar now could be revised to draw ships up to 10.95 km away on the mini-map, but only puts them on the regular map at 7.95 or closer. 

WHY I THINK THIS WOULD BE BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE: Even as someone who plays DDs more than cruisers, I concede that radar should exist in some form at higher tiers, as both a nod to historical accuracy and to mitigate against a catastrophic level of ninja torp walls. That said, radar as it exists right now doesn't seem focused on rewarding skill and judgment in a game that generally appeals more to older players who like to focus on us of skill and judgement in their games. Additionally, even though I'm still focused more on tier 8 than 9-10, even at that lower tier it seems that heavy radar tends to make the game more passive (and dull IMHO). Conversely, the concerns that Cruiser and BB players have about not being able to use skill to counterplay ninja torp walls aren't without merit. Finally, the situation of cruisers radaring entire caps from behind a solid island where they can't be hit is both frustrating and silly. I remember hearing a dev giving an interview on The Warships Podcast to say it was too difficult and time consuming to fix easily, and I concede that they would know more than me on that, but it's still frustrating and silly.

In any case, I think split radar would make the above issues at least less bad, and would be easier to implement than some other suggested solutions. Most importantly, I think the change would result in more skill and judgment being exercised on all sides. If a DD is detected on a mini map, they have to think and make a decision about whether they want to press-in still, hoping to either stay out of map draw range or that the radar duration will run by then, or to play it safe and sail away.  BBs and CA/CLs will know that a DD exists and generally where it is pretty far out, so they'll be able to start taking evasive action. If they choose not to, they have no more excuse for their own death by torps than a DD who sits still in smoke. Once a DD is detected, under the new radar model, the "destroyer hunter" role of cruisers would be more heavily emphasized, as they'd be the ones who would have to decide if, based on the mini-map detection, if they are going to actively try to chase down and kill the detected destroyer or not. Finally, a radar ship has to decide whether it wants to focus on detecting ships further-out on the mini map so their team can react to them (at the cost of warning-away DDs outside killing range or the duration expiring before a close-in kill is achieved) OR hording the radar for close-in killing of DDs at knife-fighting range. 

While radar would still go through solid land, pending a future fix by WG, the shorter range of radar capable of drawing a ship on the regular map would make radar ships less able to sit behind an island and dominate a cap with radar. Yes, they'd be even more likely to be able to generally detect an enemy ship on a cap, but it should be harder to just push a button to completely reveal a DD and instantly have other ships around the cap destroy any capping DDs while the radar ship faces no risk. 

Finally, I think this is a more "cinematic" feel for radar than currently exists, as it echos how radar and sonar acts like in popular military fiction. At longer ranges, with an initial contact, an operator will usually only have general information for their captain...that something have been detected, generally where it is, generally how big it is, etc. Only as ranges close and the contact persists does the operator fill-in more details about what they are facing. The current in-game radar...where you go instantly from no knowledge at all to knowing every possible piece of info, seems less realistic/cinematic to me. 

In any case, seems like radar is something that draws a lot of heated comments and would benefit from some sort of revision. Wanted to offer a constructive idea with the hope that, even if not viewed as a good route for revision, may spur other useful ideas. 

NOTE: Feel free to delete this post if it deemed duplicative, or more if it would be better suited to a different sub-forum.

-TIS

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't think your ideas bad

 I think if there is a buffer zone between mini map reference and hard target lock might give destroyers a chance to break off an attack instead of just getting instant deleted, so I like it:cap_like:

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It’s a good idea.  WW2 radar for early detection is very different than the “satellite targeting and fire control” we have now, which relays exact positioning and targeting information to all ships of the fleet.

Edited by n00bot

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48 minutes ago, The_Invisible_Swordsman said:

Finally, a radar ship has to decide whether it wants to focus on detecting ships further-out on the mini map so their team can react to them (at the cost of warning-away DDs outside killing range or the duration expiring before a close-in kill is achieved) OR hording the radar for close-in killing of DDs at knife-fighting range. 

This is an interesting idea.  With the longer range radar will cover more ground, even if its just the mini map detection.  What I foresee happening is DDs counter each other more aggressively.  I see it playing out like this.  Radar is popped because the cap starts to turn, and a DD is spotted (maybe on the mini map only) and the friendly gun boat DD(s) close in for the kill.  It's possible overall DD survival rates wouldn't get any better, maybe even drop slightly.  Still, I think many DD players would rather go down slugging it out with other DDs than playing the super passive DD game we have now.    

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21 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

This is an interesting idea.  With the longer range radar will cover more ground, even if its just the mini map detection.  What I foresee happening is DDs counter each other more aggressively.  I see it playing out like this.  Radar is popped because the cap starts to turn, and a DD is spotted (maybe on the mini map only) and the friendly gun boat DD(s) close in for the kill.  It's possible overall DD survival rates wouldn't get any better, maybe even drop slightly.  Still, I think many DD players would rather go down slugging it out with other DDs than playing the super passive DD game we have now.    

That's a good point. I think I'd prefer that though because it puts more emphasis on decisions made and actions taken by several different players, rather than just one person  pushing a button. It could actually encourage some good synergistic team play, with a radar cruiser working closely with a gun DD to fight for a cap. Cruiser mini-map spots the enemy DD on the mini-map but has to send the ally DD in close to ferret it out.

Let me know if my experience is atypical, but what I usually see now, by contrast, is a DD radar being spotted by a cruiser standing-off 8-10 km away, a bunch of other cruisers and BBs about that far off just swiveling their guns to blast the DD for 50-100% of its hp, then (if it lives) the DD that was hit running away and playing very passive the rest of the game (and that's if you can find a DD that's willing to be non-passive at all until radar ships are thinned-out).

Personally, I think the Cruiser/DD hunter killer combo would be a lot more interesting and dynamic than what usually happens right now when a DD is radar-spotted on a cap, which basically just makes the DDs damage pinatas for whoever happens to be nearby.

-TIS

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53 minutes ago, n00bot said:

It’s a good idea.  WW2 radar for early detection is very different than the “satellite targeting and fire control” we have now, which relays exact positioning and targeting information to all ships of the fleet.

Which is also how the game portrays other spotting... Should it also happen that way for ships that are spotted by other players? 

So if a dd spots a ship, it will only show it on the mini map? Or do you want realistic spotting on one form of spotting and not the other? 

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OP, this is the best radar fix I've seen yet. Would be really interested in seeing it tested. I don't know if it's workable with the current vision mechanics/engine though. 

What do you think @Pigeon_of_War?

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Your idea has some merit. You could limit who gets to see the ship to teamates close to you. Say 5 km of you and no one else. Because as it stands now it seems no matter how your detected in a DD the amount of ships targeting you goes from zero to 5 before you can even get your rudder turned to half in either direction. 

But the more limitations you place on radar the more code they have to write. Placing a higher strain on the systems running it. 

A different change could be done to the maps themselves by pulling the islands back from cap points so radar cruisers would have to pop from cover to radar the entire cap to find the DD. 

But I think the easier solution would be for WG to bite the bullet and just make radar not see through islands. Even if it took them 6 months to write the code and make it work. 

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36 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

This is an interesting idea.  With the longer range radar will cover more ground, even if its just the mini map detection.  What I foresee happening is DDs counter each other more aggressively.  I see it playing out like this.  Radar is popped because the cap starts to turn, and a DD is spotted (maybe on the mini map only) and the friendly gun boat DD(s) close in for the kill.  It's possible overall DD survival rates wouldn't get any better, maybe even drop slightly.  Still, I think many DD players would rather go down slugging it out with other DDs than playing the super passive DD game we have now.    

Because DDs can generally pick and choose their fights, they can manage their risk themselves via adjusting their play style. The problem with radar is it makes the risks of playing close to the enemy outweigh the rewards, resulting in the passive play we see. DDs being a low survivability class isn't a problem if the rewards are worth the risk.

As for the radar suggestion, while I like the mini map spotting, doesn't the render range make hydro somewhat redundant? Though to be fair current radar already does this.

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I'm afraid to read what you wrote, last thing I need is to hope for something cool and not get it. 

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