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awildseaking

Udaloi Buff?

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I wanted to explore this subject and see how others feel because as I near Grozovoi, Udaloi is starting to feel a bit power creeped.

Udaloi made sense in the old tree (T6 Ognevoi, T7 Kiev, T8 Tashkent, T10 Khabarovsk) but the connection to Ognevoi and Grozovoi is limited. Ognevoi has competitive concealment, good torpedo range and DPM, and Stalinium rounds, albeit limited by 2x2. Grozovoi shares most of these characteristics with Ognevoi except it has better gunnery, dedicated DFAA (Ognevoi and Udaloi trade EB for DFAA), and RP. Grozovoi can imitate Khabarovsk and do its own thing as needed.

What can Udaloi do? You have Khabarovsk's guns (which Tashkent didn't have but does now), but nothing else fits with the new tree. You have 8km torps instead of 10 and the torpedo reload is insane relative to T8 and T10. Your concealment is through the roof unless you play the A hull. In exchange, you lose 2.8k HP, 2.5 sec of rudder shift time, and you still have poor concealment (8.6km base, 7.5 with typical Udaloi build, 6.75 with full stealth).

Since the tree split, Udaloi gained DFAA, but it has to lose EB and sacrifice the mini-Khabarovsk playstyle (fast gunboat at ~14km) to use it. Since then, Grozovoi has received repeated buffs, most notably the addition of RP in a separate consumable slot. With Tashkent receiving Khabarovsk's guns, the only difference between Udaloi and Tashkent now is a minor concealment increase, smoke, and a larger torpedo broadside in exchange for a substantial loss of health, RP, range, speed, torpedo DPM, and utility in general.

I feel like Udaloi still belongs in the main tree. I'd take Tashkent over it any day now that it has Khabarovsk guns, but Udaloi has become the Neptune of Soviet DDs. It doesn't fit the playstyle of any part of the line and is a dramatic departure from both the previous and successive tier.

I don't think WG can arbitrarily take 1-2km concealment off the Udaloi and dedicated DFAA and RP wouldn't change how it plays (DL like Khabarovsk and Tashkent), so I'm convinced this ship needs to be replaced entirely with something more akin to the playstyle of Ognevoi and Grozovoi.

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It's a pay wall. Some people like it, I am not one of them.

I found it to be useless, and frankly I didn't care to learn it because I don't feel like I should have to. It's the company's fault for sticking it in the "torp boat" line or whatever the heck you want to call it. 10km torps are barely competitive at high tiers, 8km torps AFTER a ship with 10km torps and BEFORE a ship with 10km torps is just stupid beyond belief.... It would be like sticking the Akizuki in the Kagero's place, makes no freakin sense...

Concealment is horrid, can't do anything without being perma-spotted, which I was all. the. time.... try to play near your fleet and basically just get pew pew chip damage. Fun...

For Udaloi to work right it needs a captain spec'd like a gunboat and renders the any torp focus from the T8 useless.

Safe to say you touched on a pet-peeve. The ship is idiotic at it's current spot. It doesn't belong there in any way shape or form.

Edited by HeathenForay

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Yeah, because the one thing the game needs is another Russian ship buffed the hell out.

Edited by SavageTactical

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2 hours ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Udaloi does not need a buff.

Take AFT. Dont take CE. Run double rudder. Gunboat everything. Prepare for Grozovoi.

I don’t think it needs a direct “buff” but it would be nice to see the gameplay changed to fit the line a little bit. OP had good points and it is part of what is annoying me and making the grind through it more painful. You go from meh concealment to poor concealment and lose torpedo range. Imagine a USN line where the Fletcher had 6.6 concealment and 8km torps. You’d have the Benson and the Gearing which play one way and the Fletcher which is an oddball. It would be nice to see a more fitting detection, longer range torps, longer reload torps, and maybe add .3s to the reload or something like it to balance out the concealment buff.

59 minutes ago, SavageTactical said:

Yeah, because the one thing the game needs is another Russian ship buffed the hellbout.

See above. Not a buff but a change. 

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2 hours ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Udaloi does not need a buff.

Take AFT. Dont take CE. Run double rudder. Gunboat everything. Prepare for Grozovoi.

Yep.  Udaloi is fine.....a great hybrid boat, actually.  Learn and adapt.

1 hour ago, SavageTactical said:

Yeah, because the one thing the game needs is another Russian ship buffed the hellbout.

Any buffs to Udaloi would make her dangerously close to being too strong.

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Whaaaaaat? Udaloi is currently more OP than Khabarovsk IMHO. My winrate is higher in Udaloi than Khabarovsk.

Run consealment mod, but not CE. 8k detection with 8k torps allows stealth torping advancing enemies. Yes the reload is long but you have FIFTEEN torpedoes. Charging smoke I launch center and one side into the smoke, then flip with the 3rd launcher in reserve. 

Run AFT and RPF. Murder anything stealthier than you. 

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i dont think udaloi need a buff

plus you can always pick engine boost in the Y slot instead of DFAA

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5 hours ago, HeathenForay said:

It's a pay wall. Some people like it, I am not one of them.

I found it to be useless, and frankly I didn't care to learn it because I don't feel like I should have to. It's the company's fault for sticking it in the "torp boat" line or whatever the heck you want to call it. 10km torps are barely competitive at high tiers, 8km torps AFTER a ship with 10km torps and BEFORE a ship with 10km torps is just stupid beyond belief.... It would be like sticking the Akizuki in the Kagero's place, makes no freakin sense...

Concealment is horrid, can't do anything without being perma-spotted, which I was all. the. time.... try to play near your fleet and basically just get pew pew chip damage. Fun...

For Udaloi to work right it needs a captain spec'd like a gunboat and renders the any torp focus from the T8 useless.

Safe to say you touched on a pet-peeve. The ship is idiotic at it's current spot. It doesn't belong there in any way shape or form.

I could stealth torpedo in mine.

I could outgun most destroyers 

I could burn battleships down.

I could get frustrated and free exp 95k for Groz.....

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55 minutes ago, Kombat_W0MBAT said:

Groz was over-buffed. Doesn't mean Udaloi should be too. 

It was a fantastic DD even before the buffs. People were just playing it like a T10 Udaloi and getting their face caved in.

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36 minutes ago, jason199506 said:

i dont think udaloi need a buff

plus you can always pick engine boost in the Y slot instead of DFAA

I always run engine boost with special engine mod. If a CV wants to sink you they will no matter what. 

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3 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

Yep.  Udaloi is fine.....a great hybrid boat, actually.  Learn and adapt.

Any buffs to Udaloi would make her dangerously close to being too strong.

Agreed.  This ship was designed for full Open water gun boating.  You can play the groz the exact same way.  This ship DOES NOT need a buff.  It's one of the easiest ships in the game to farm witherer, and arsonist awards.  It's also far more nimble than Tashkent. (Which was over buffed)

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1 minute ago, bfk_ferlyfe said:

Agreed.  This ship was designed for full Open water gun boating.  You can play the groz the exact same way.  This ship DOES NOT need a buff.  It's one of the easiest ships in the game to farm witherer, and arsonist awards.  It's also far more nimble than Tashkent. (Which was over buffed)

And actually has serviceable torpedoes.  In my mind, probably the most balanced and fun ship in the Russian DD line(s).  Would rather play Udaloi any day over Khab.

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5 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

And actually has serviceable torpedoes.  In my mind, probably the most balanced and fun ship in the Russian DD line(s).  Would rather play Udaloi any day over Khab.

I agree 100% far more thrilling than khab.

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While I agree that the Udaloi is fine as it is, the original post does make a couple main points.

1) The Tashkent receiving Khabarovsk guns while nice erased the turret turn advantage Udaloi had over it making the two tier nines more similar. This does in a way sometimes makes the two play very similarly, especially with the lack of aircraft carriers, unless you are purposely divisioning with an aircraft carrier.

2) Average players probably struggle a little with the disparity going from Ognevoi (balanced normal destroyer) to Udaloi (gunboat hybrid) to Grozovoi (balanced gunboat).
 

While a buff or two will make the Udaloi stronger, I don't necessarily feel it will become overpowered. Changes they can do include the following: (not necessarily all of them, just these are possible options)

1) Torpedoes: Boost the torpedo range up to 10 km like the Ognevoi and Grozovoi. This would likely just be a minor buff because of all the radar proliferation and you still get caught by Soviet radar (11.7 km) when trying to stealth torpedo.

2) Consumables: Split the Defensive Fire and Engine Boost into their own slots. They already did this with the Grozovoi and will make it easier to perform in the newer AA destroyer role and at the same time destroyer hunter role that it always has had. Without adding a heal like Grozovoi, this likely will be a minor buff as well.

3) Concealment: Give the A Hull concealment (8.6 km) to the B hull (currently 9.2 km). This will lower the minimum detection down to 6.76 km which means it still gets outspotted by other line destroyers which will still have better concealment, and makes for better ease of play for average players. This will likely also be a minor buff as well because the detection still doesn't match same tier destroyers in other lines.


Whether the game developers want to implement anything like this is up to them of course but for ease of use for average players, these could be options for minor buffs to the Udaloi to make it match more with the Ognevoi before it and the Grozovoi after it. Whether they do want to buff and how they implement it is of course a totally different matter.

Edited by Lightninger

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3 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

I could stealth torpedo in mine.

I could outgun most destroyers 

I could burn battleships down.

I could get frustrated and free exp 95k for Groz.....

I did free XP to Grozovoi.

All the other points I could do as well if I wanted. Gunboats aren't my strongest ships but to me it's all irrelevant. Being where it is makes no sense and it doesn't belong there. It's just stupid, that bothered me more than anything.

The only "paywall" I admit to actually paying for was the Izumo during a conversion discount and already had a ton of doubloons. I ground out free xp specifically to skip Udaloi because playing it was so unpleasant for me. I also do not have an abundance of high skill Soviet commanders laying around so I refused to use commander XP on ONE ship that is out of place, better to spend it on the Kiev.

Edited by HeathenForay

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It surprises me that folks find Udaloi to be a difficult boat to play - I find her to be a rather strong, rather versatile vessel.  That said - if I've noted anything in my time on these forums, its that not every boat is going to work for every player.  Play-styles vary - and luckily for us, so do the relative strengths and weaknesses of the boats in the game - so there is - literally - something for everyone.

I spec for full concealment, using a Skipper shared with Grem and Lenin - as well as rudder shift and guns.

Udaloi is all about speed - so taking DFAA over SB wouldn't be my choice - and this boat is a great choice for a special speed boost module.

She is a great boat for spamming HE - but when spec'ed for full concealment, she is actually pretty good at capping (especially middle/late match) and using the stealth to close in for torp ambushes, or to finish off low health DDs at close range.  You're not going to out-spot many other DDs - but using cover to advantage, - it can be enough.

Don't be afraid to go dark in Udaloi, if you think repositioning will earn you a DS, or an unguarded cap - which is exactly what Groz is so proficient at.  In that respect, she is a perfect trainer for the next-in-line.  I think lots of folks play her like Khab - running around firing and spotted the entire match - but she is so much more versatile than that.  Don't get me wrong - when you find yourself in the open on the red-push flank, she can do that just fine - but if you aren't looking for opportunities to play her more strategically, in regard match objectives - then you aren't playing her to full advantage.  High damage in a DD is only rarely a factor in a match win.  Killing (or hurting badly) red DDs in early-match - then stealing caps in mid/late stages is a better recipe, imho.

InSr3Xy.png

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2 minutes ago, ddoubletapp1 said:

It surprises me that folks find Udaloi to be a difficult boat to play - I find her to be a rather strong, rather versatile vessel.  That said - if I've noted anything in my time on these forums, its that not every boat is going to work for every player.  Play-styles vary - and luckily for us, so do the relative strengths and weaknesses of the boats in the game - so there is - literally - something for everyone.

I spec for full concealment, using a Skipper shared with Grem and Lenin - as well as rudder shift and guns.

Udaloi is all about speed - so taking DFAA over SB wouldn't be my choice - and this boat is a great choice for a special speed boost module.

She is a great boat for spamming HE - but when spec'ed for full concealment, she is actually pretty good at capping (especially middle/late match) and using the stealth to close in for torp ambushes, or to finish off low health DDs at close range.  You're not going to out-spot many other DDs - but using cover to advantage, - it can be enough.

Don't be afraid to go dark in Udaloi, if you think repositioning will earn you a DS, or an unguarded cap - which is exactly what Groz is so proficient at.  In that respect, she is a perfect trainer for the next-in-line.  I think lots of folks play her like Khab - running around firing and spotted the entire match - but she is so much more versatile than that.  Don't get me wrong - when you find yourself in the open on the red-push flank, she can do that just fine - but if you aren't looking for opportunities to play her more strategically, in regard match objectives - then you aren't playing her to full advantage.  High damage in a DD is only rarely a factor in a match win.  Killing (or hurting badly) red DDs in early-match - then stealing caps in mid/late stages is a better recipe, imho.

InSr3Xy.png

It's a very flexible ship.  I think most go with a 0 concealment build and play it like a khab.  It's nice to know people also play it as a normal dd as well.

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Perhaps the title implied I thought Udaloi was bad. I do well with it, but I do well with Krasny Krym too. My concern is that I am better off with other DDs, which is why I feel Udaloi is suffering from power creep. It didn't become bad and never was bad; everyone else got better so now it's relatively worse.

I use a similar build as others have recommended. Double rudder with AFT and CE, EB with EBM1 and SM. The ship is fine, but it feels power creeped relative to others and it still feels out of place in its own tree. It has a unique build that doesn't necessarily fit the tree (ex. swapping CE for DE). I likened it to Neptune in this regard because unless you want AA memes, Edinburgh and Minotaur share a build that doesn't help Neptune out much.

I do not consider Udaloi's torpedoes to be great. 15 is misleading. They're broadside launchers, so you really have 10 without doing wasteful maneuvering to fire that third set. Tashkent has centerline and can fire all 9 at once. Tashkent has slower torpedoes, but they're actually harder to dodge because of 1.2km detect instead of Udaloi's 1.4 (7.2sec vs. 7.6 reaction time). Tashkent can fire 18 torpedoes in the time it takes Udaloi to fire 15. Not that these are torp boats, but for the purposes of defensive torping while kiting and situational use, Tashkent is far superior.

I also would not call Udaloi more nimble. It turns better but is a slower ship with less range. When shooting at range, speed helps you dodge more than rudder shift. Many people have difficulty shooting Khabarovsk because it is too fast to hit when fully zoomed. You have to feel comfortable using the second or third zoom and average people never have a reason to practice that. The faster you are, the more ground you can cover. That increases the chances of missing substantially. Turning is nice at close to mid range, but dispersion and large broadside salvos invalidate this approach (especially since good players expect you to turn and never aim at your current path). Plus you cannot heal and have less health to begin with, so the influence you can exert only decreases with time.

In short, when I play Udaloi, I feel like I'm playing a worse Tashkent. Sort of like Izumo vs. Musashi, Neptune vs. Minotaur, Ibuki vs. 155 Mogami and Zao, etc.

WG expressed concern that people sell their T9s immediately. Perhaps that wouldn't be the case if there weren't so many black sheep that don't fit the tech tree and use unique builds that aren't future proof.

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13 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

Perhaps the title implied I thought Udaloi was bad. I do well with it, but I do well with Krasny Krym too. My concern is that I am better off with other DDs, which is why I feel Udaloi is suffering from power creep. It didn't become bad and never was bad; everyone else got better so now it's relatively worse.

I use a similar build as others have recommended. Double rudder with AFT and CE, EB with EBM1 and SM. The ship is fine, but it feels power creeped relative to others and it still feels out of place in its own tree. It has a unique build that doesn't necessarily fit the tree (ex. swapping CE for DE). I likened it to Neptune in this regard because unless you want AA memes, Edinburgh and Minotaur share a build that doesn't help Neptune out much.

I do not consider Udaloi's torpedoes to be great. 15 is misleading. They're broadside launchers, so you really have 10 without doing wasteful maneuvering to fire that third set. Tashkent has centerline and can fire all 9 at once. Tashkent has slower torpedoes, but they're actually harder to dodge because of 1.2km detect instead of Udaloi's 1.4 (7.2sec vs. 7.6 reaction time). Tashkent can fire 18 torpedoes in the time it takes Udaloi to fire 15. Not that these are torp boats, but for the purposes of defensive torping while kiting and situational use, Tashkent is far superior.

I also would not call Udaloi more nimble. It turns better but is a slower ship with less range. When shooting at range, speed helps you dodge more than rudder shift. Many people have difficulty shooting Khabarovsk because it is too fast to hit when fully zoomed. You have to feel comfortable using the second or third zoom and average people never have a reason to practice that. The faster you are, the more ground you can cover. That increases the chances of missing substantially. Turning is nice at close to mid range, but dispersion and large broadside salvos invalidate this approach (especially since good players expect you to turn and never aim at your current path). Plus you cannot heal and have less health to begin with, so the influence you can exert only decreases with time.

In short, when I play Udaloi, I feel like I'm playing a worse Tashkent. Sort of like Izumo vs. Musashi, Neptune vs. Minotaur, Ibuki vs. 155 Mogami and Zao, etc.

WG expressed concern that people sell their T9s immediately. Perhaps that wouldn't be the case if there weren't so many black sheep that don't fit the tech tree and use unique builds that aren't future proof.

What you're saying makes sense.  At the same time, not every ship has to be god tier.  Also, in use the same full gun boat build for my groz, so you can retain the same build if you like.

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11 hours ago, ddoubletapp1 said:

It surprises me that folks find Udaloi to be a difficult boat to play - I find her to be a rather strong, rather versatile vessel.  That said - if I've noted anything in my time on these forums, its that not every boat is going to work for every player.  Play-styles vary - and luckily for us, so do the relative strengths and weaknesses of the boats in the game - so there is - literally - something for everyone.

I spec for full concealment, using a Skipper shared with Grem and Lenin - as well as rudder shift and guns.

Udaloi is all about speed - so taking DFAA over SB wouldn't be my choice - and this boat is a great choice for a special speed boost module.

She is a great boat for spamming HE - but when spec'ed for full concealment, she is actually pretty good at capping (especially middle/late match) and using the stealth to close in for torp ambushes, or to finish off low health DDs at close range.  You're not going to out-spot many other DDs - but using cover to advantage, - it can be enough.

Don't be afraid to go dark in Udaloi, if you think repositioning will earn you a DS, or an unguarded cap - which is exactly what Groz is so proficient at.  In that respect, she is a perfect trainer for the next-in-line.  I think lots of folks play her like Khab - running around firing and spotted the entire match - but she is so much more versatile than that.  Don't get me wrong - when you find yourself in the open on the red-push flank, she can do that just fine - but if you aren't looking for opportunities to play her more strategically, in regard match objectives - then you aren't playing her to full advantage.  High damage in a DD is only rarely a factor in a match win.  Killing (or hurting badly) red DDs in early-match - then stealing caps in mid/late stages is a better recipe, imho.

InSr3Xy.png

Once I started using her as a full concealed torp boat and cap bully,  she started to shine.

I was trying to play her like my Tashkent,  and that is not her strength.

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21 hours ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Udaloi does not need a buff.

Take AFT. Dont take CE. Run double rudder. Gunboat everything. Prepare for Grozovoi.

Doesn't Grozovoi need CE?  IIRC she actually has decent concealment, unlike the other 3 RU DDs from Tier IX-X.  It's kind of weird to spec for no CE in the Tier IX DD and then suddenly require it at Tier X again.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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16 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

I could stealth torpedo in mine.

I could outgun most destroyers 

I could burn battleships down.

I could get frustrated and free exp 95k for Groz.....

Udaloi performs best in a "Light Cruiser but with no Citadel" role.  Give her open water and farm away on some BBs.  Back up a stealthier DD with your guns, PROFIT.

 

But when MM says either of these cases:

"You're the only DD for the team."

or
"You are 1 of 2 DDs for the team and spawned opposite of your only other friendly DD."

These cases are where Udaloi fails.  If she has to do her own spotting, probing at the caps, that's where she gets outspotted and shelled like a M.F.  The opposing, stealthier DD doesn't even need to shoot back.  The concealment disparity is so laughable that they'd be stupid to shoot their guns at Udaloi.  Let everyone beat the sh*t out of her instead, while you rake in Spotting damage and prepare to get the cap after Udaloi is destroyed or beaten to hell by Cruiser / Battleship gunfire.

 

Now, some can say, "Well, Udaloi shouldn't probe the caps anyways."  Which is pretty pointless when Udaloi is in either of these scenarios.  You concede the caps to the stealthy DDs and you may as well write the match off as a loss.

 

Udaloi is great when she does the "Light Crusier but no Citadel" role.  She's great when there's lots of DDs per team as she can back up the stealthier DDs (i.e. Udaloi backing up an IJN or USN DD).  But on her own when caps need to be contested, etc, or when the DD counts are low, this DD spectacularly fails.

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35 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Doesn't Grozovoi need CE?  IIRC she actually has decent concealment, unlike the other 3 RU DDs from Tier IX-X.  It's kind of weird to spec for no CE in the Tier IX DD and then suddenly require it at Tier X again.

Grozovoi can make use of CE, but you do not want to be close range gunning down other DDs. You're fat, slow to turn, and very vulnerable to a lot of return damage.

It does not need it to be competitive.

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