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Edgecase

Reflecting on Go Navy! ship type balance

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TL;DR: The Go Navy! event in patch 0.7.7.0 is imbalanced in favor of certain ship types. DDs got screwed. Unbalanced availability of achievements is the root cause.

I'll keep this one short. The Go Navy! event heavily favors damage-dealing and HP regeneration thanks to the selection of Heroic Achievements currently in the game. There are no heroic achievements available related to scouting, capping, or avoiding (rather than healing) damage, so ship types that are oriented toward those types of behaviors are disfavored.

Here's some supporting info:

Spoiler
Heroic Achievements by ship type
  BB CA/CL DD CV
High Caliber (30% of team HP, 4 ships hit) Easy Easy Moderate Easy
Confederate (6 ships hit for 20%+) Easy Moderate Hard Easy
Witherer (60k DOT) Hard* Easy** Moderate Easy
Dreadnought (120% HP and live) Easy Moderate Impossible Impossible
Kraken Unleashed (KS 5 times) Moderate Moderate Hard Moderate
Solo Warrior (yeah right) - - - -

* Easy if you spam HE or play Conqueror
** Hard if you play British CL

As you can see, ships that can do high damage to multiple targets over the course of a game are favored for both High Caliber and Confederate. Ships with reliable fire damage are favored for Witherer, since everyone repairs flooding as a top priority. Kraken Unleashed relies on being able to land last-hits at will, which in turn favors large burst damage that can be selectively timed. Dreadnought requires the ability to heal damage; the larger a percent you can heal, the better. In short, Conqueror rules all, followed by DOT-based CVs that farm battleships, HE spamming cruisers, and destroyers are basically out of the running unless the other team has derpy battleships that happen to eat torps before they give the rest of your team broadside.

The other method of earning points in the match, killing blows on ships, is easy to do with high alpha salvos, but difficult to do with slow-moving torpedoes, slow-traveling shells, or low-damage shells (because you can easily get KS'ed by someone who blaps the last 10% off in one shot). Again, this favors battleships and cruisers.

Core gameplay behaviors for which there are no heroic achievements:

  • Spotting
  • Capping
  • Evasion tanking
  • Air defense

Core gameplay behaviors that get no credit whatsoever:

  • Partial caps
  • Smoking allies
  • Intangibles (e.g., "threat", "zoning")

It's fairly clear that teamplay behaviors and light ship gameplay (which relies on cap play and avoiding damage rather than repairing it) are not being adequately rewarded in terms of heroic achievements.

 

My suggestion to WG is that it's time to revisit the achievements in game and probably reallocate one or more of them to better suit the variety of roles, gameplay mechanics, and tactics that have evolved since the game was first designed. We don't really need two damage-dealing medals (High Caliber and Confederate), but there are a whole slew of important roles that aren't being recognized right now.

Edited by Edgecase
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That board is wrong you can get dreadnought with a DD as long you got a heal I get it in my khab frequently, just play a BB problem solve

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32 minutes ago, dad003 said:

That board is wrong you can get dreadnought with a DD as long you got a heal I get it in my khab frequently, just play a BB problem solve

Insert decrepit old joke here about Khab being a cruiser without a citadel.

Yes, I know there are exceptions. They don't ummake the rule.

As for "play a BB problem solve"... that's not solving the problem, it's stepping awkwardly around it.

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Those bonuses might get your daily go navy crates quicker. That's it.  Or maybe it is indeed a huge anti-DD conspiracy relegating them to play a few more games to get a somewhat meh reward.  

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To clarify, you made a chart where you made up values for how hard it is to get achievements, and said the mission was biased because dds cant get dreadnoughts?

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I don’t disagree with the majority of your argument, but I feel like there are heroic achievements for which DDs are more apt to complete, such as first blood and dev strike, particularly on other DDs in initial cap skirmishes.  But those are really their only hope outside of the random straight lining battleship/cruiser dev strike.  

Edited by RightYouAreKen

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2 minutes ago, RightYouAreKen said:

I don’t disagree with the majority of your argument, but I feel like there are heroic achievements for which DDs are more apt to complete, such as first blood and dev strike, particularly on other DDs in initial cap skirmishes.  But those are really their only hope outside of the random straight lining battleship/cruiser dev strike.  

Those aren't heroic achievements.

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2 minutes ago, intixw said:

Those aren't heroic achievements.

So you’re right.  Don’t understand why, but thanks for the correction.  

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Are not the Heroic Achievements called as such because they are difficult to achieve?

 

If they were easy they would just be standard achievements.

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11 minutes ago, RightYouAreKen said:

I don’t disagree with the majority of your argument, but I feel like there are heroic achievements for which DDs are more apt to complete, such as first blood and dev strike, particularly on other DDs in initial cap skirmishes.  But those are really their only hope outside of the random straight lining battleship/cruiser dev strike.  

As you get up higher in tiers the DD Dev Strikes become much rarer simply due to HP pools, torp damage scaling, better players, TDS, ect.

 

And yes, they could do more to reward DD centric "achievements".

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1 hour ago, Lord_Slayer said:

Are not the Heroic Achievements called as such because they are difficult to achieve?

If they were easy they would just be standard achievements.

I don't think that's really true.  They seem to be a strange random collection to me, with a few exceptions.  I tallied up all of the Standard and Heroic achievements I've earned, and I've collected more instances of each Heroic achievement, on average, than the Standard ones.

Standard  
Arsonist 51
CQE 207
Dev Strike 647
Die Hard 3
Double Strike 53
Fireproof 93
First Blood 488
Flesh Wound 168
Liquidator 7
Unsinkable 5
Average 172.2
   
Heroic  
Confederate 517
Dreadnought 252
High Caliber 313
Kraken 116
Solo Warrior 0
Witherer 26
Average 204

Confederate, in particular, seems to be pretty poorly classified as a Heroic achievement.  It is not really all that uncommon.  I'd argue that double strike would be a better Heroic achievement, in it's rarity and difficulty

Edited by RightYouAreKen

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7 hours ago, Edgecase said:

 

Well written post Edgecase . You would think this type of logic and thought processes would of been done prior to implementation such an event.. 

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I like the idea of new medals related to capping, potential damage, spotting and spotting damage mechanics, these have been made transparent to the player for some time now and the achievements could do with a little more variety

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RN CL really aren't the ships for this, the in-game mini-mission 'destroy 15 modules' is a 2-shot for most HE capable cruisers, but far harder with AP only. You can get Dreadnought, but are more likely to just go pop.

My bugbears with this competition otherwise are about the in-game missions -

  • '3 Defended Ribbons' - this is utter rubbish on Standard Battle
  • 'Use 5 consumables' - purely skill-less, I've played well and avoided damage and been unable to do it, and played poorly (spammed DFAA on cooldown when no CV) to get it other times - instawin in Haida though...
  • '15 secondary battery hits' - rubbish on some BB, also encourages over-pushing just to get it at the expense of the game, especially as it's worth twice as much as a win
  • '3 Citadels' - pretty reasonable
  • 'Spot 9 torpedoes' - way too matchmaking dependent and no-skill, a 1-2 DD game makes this an automatic fail, being torpedoed is not skillful

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26 minutes ago, mofton said:

'3 Defended Ribbons' - this is utter rubbish on Standard Battle

Unless something goes terribly, terribly wrong. At least you don't have to win the battle.

26 minutes ago, mofton said:

instawin in Haida though...

Also run of the mill for any eligible British cruiser.

27 minutes ago, mofton said:

'Spot 9 torpedoes' - way too matchmaking dependent and no-skill, a 1-2 DD game makes this an automatic fail, being torpedoed is not skillful

That depends on the tier. Also, it says SPOT 9 torpedoes, not EAT 9 torpedoes. :Smile_teethhappy: I have on occasion been able to dodge the Shimakaze wall of skill when discharged into my smoke, and that's that mission done right there.

8 hours ago, Edgecase said:

The Go Navy! event in patch 0.7.7.0 is imbalanced in favor of certain ship types. DDs got screwed.

I've got "land 5 torpedo hits" in my Gallant a few times now. If that's not what destroyers are for, I don't know what is.

On a more general note, I agree that there are things destroyers do which are not well rewarded with shiny badges. Taking all the caps that weren't yours at the start of the match (e.g. A, B, D on Two Brothers) with at least one solo, or taking all the capture points acquired by your entire team, should get some sort of recognition.

 

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I think you guys are missing the point, this recent even highlights the discrepancy in how heroic achievements are obtained (mostly damage focused) compared to how many other roles there are in the game (potential damage, spotting damage, capping, etc..). In my opinion it also underlies a major flaw in the scoring system which doesn't account for a lot of supporting roles.

Honestly, if WG implemented a much more fleshed out scoring system it would make things like ranked amazing, because you could advance on your own merit.

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23 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I've got "land 5 torpedo hits" in my Gallant a few times now. If that's not what destroyers are for, I don't know what is.

Oof yeah, I only ever get that in ahem, sub-optimal destroyer choices (once in Khaba, twice in Haida, once in Akizuki).

Then I get '50 ribbons' in freaking Shinonome and am driven to over-gunboat, while '50 ribbons' in Khaba is about 2 minutes into the game...

I also don't really like that there's no scaling with tier. 15 modules at T5 isn't many, but at T10 is one BB HE salvo.

3 minutes ago, Kevs02Accord said:

I think you guys are missing the point, this recent even highlights the discrepancy in how heroic achievements are obtained (mostly damage focused) compared to how many other roles there are in the game (potential damage, spotting damage, capping, etc..). In my opinion it also underlies a major flaw in the scoring system which doesn't account for a lot of supporting roles.

This isn't the first time it's been remarked upon, Edgecase is correct but what can you do?

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16 minutes ago, mofton said:

 also don't really like that there's no scaling with tier. 15 modules at T5 isn't many, but at T10 is one BB HE salvo.

This isn't the first time it's been remarked upon, Edgecase is correct but what can you do?

nothing really, until WG decides to put forth the time and effort to correct it. for now we just have to deal and call [edited] when we see it.

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29 minutes ago, mofton said:

I also don't really like that there's no scaling with tier. 15 modules at T5 isn't many, but at T10 is one BB HE salvo.

Agreed, it doesn't take ship or tier into account.   Get "Spot 9 torpedoes" *checks enemy team lineup* only enemy ship with torps is a Khaba..... :cap_book:

11 minutes ago, Kevs02Accord said:

I think you guys are missing the point, this recent even highlights the discrepancy in how heroic achievements are obtained (mostly damage focused) compared to how many other roles there are in the game (potential damage, spotting damage, capping, etc..). In my opinion it also underlies a major flaw in the scoring system which doesn't account for a lot of supporting roles

Valid points you and Edgcase have.

 

Probably would have been better if it was any achievement or special ribbon based (kill, citadel, torp hit, cap defense, cap capture, etc.

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was going to make a post like this after the event, as a summary,   it's a very poorly thought out event, as usual.  It caters to Damage dealing, sit in the back sniping  WG constantly keeps promoting over team play.   Play for the team earn very little in the way of experience and event credit.   be a selfish non team player, earn lots of XP, cash and Event standing.    

 

DD's were really hit hard on this one, you were left with just foregoing the caps. trying to farm Kills and Heroics.

 

I have come to expect nothing less from Wargaming events,  they are always poorly thought out and implemented.  the ONLY thing they did right was, Just be loyal and you get the top item, but that says little to the creativity and overall sense that these people have with this game and it's direction.

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8 hours ago, DouglasMacAwful said:

Those bonuses might get your daily go navy crates quicker. That's it.  Or maybe it is indeed a huge anti-DD conspiracy relegating them to play a few more games to get a somewhat meh reward.  

That may be how it works for single-ship-type players, but for people who play several, it incentivizes picking non-destroyers for the duration of the event.

The ratio of earnings is not small either. Heroic achievements are worth 2 kills or 1 win apiece. It's entirely possible to be looking at regular 400+ point games in Conqueror (HC, Confed, DN, Win, 2 kills = 400). DDs are looking at maybe one torp nuke in a typical game, and a win if you're influential (total: 120 points). That doesn't add up to "a few more games". It's three times as many.

As for rewards, I guess you can consider 1800+ coal/day "meh", but I doubt most people do. It more than doubles your normal coal earning potential (1200 from containers, 400 from daily missions).

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