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LancasterOne

Divisions pub-stomping in random battles: Problem and solution

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Problem

A problem with divisions.

In random battles when we have a clan division all on teamspeak vs random pubbies. The game become sloped massively in favour of the team with the clan division and vice versa. If a division is really good, it's basically a free win, if it's crap, then you can just give up and farm damages before it ends. In a team based game, the quality of a division becomes a very reliable indicator of the outcome of a random game before the countdown timer even finishes. 

People want to play with friends, that's understandable but when it becomes kill-box creating pub-stomp, it becomes fun for no one but them. You're then sacrificing the benefit of the majority for the minority.

Pickup basketball as an analogy

Pickup basketball is usually a random grab-bag group of people playing against each other but what divisions are, suddenly 3 Lakers players or your favorite NBA team of choice decided they'll drop in and join one team, the other side is a random group of people. The outcome of that game would be completely lopsided. Vice versa, maybe suddenly we have three drunk frat boys on one team.  Now the other random people either will be doing jack or have to pick up the slack massively.

Solution

That imbalance of gameplay can easily be solved by creating "division battle arena mode" where division gets to play against other divisions who are also cooperating with each other, instead of random lemmings who can't tell the difference between turret and tourettes.

Note

I can imagine a lot of kickback from this idea of course. The same as when people suggest Graff Zepplin maybe broken, Graff Zepplin captains say it's not but I'm floating this out anyway.

Predicted Response:

"well why don't you play with other people then? Join a clan!". That doesn't solve the systemic problem, that just makes me part of the problem. 

Edited by LancasterOne
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Your solution become null and void when the MM can't find another division in the same tier spread. Also the wait times would be too long and I dont think anyone would want to wait just because they are in a division. You are indirectly asking to take away the division option which is not going to happen. 

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or you could just join a division...

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i think thats a problem if you want it to be, just like people saying cv are a problem

i look at it has they are the enemie

division or no division it dont matter they are still the enemy

cv or no cv same thing its just a enemy ship

you can easily get players in random that will play better then a division just like you can get a division that will be better then your team random players

it just comes down to that  tho

division or no division it dont matter

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10 minutes ago, sansfaille said:

Your solution become null and void when the MM can't find another division in the same tier spread. Also the wait times would be too long and I dont think anyone would want to wait just because they are in a division. You are indirectly asking to take away the division option which is not going to happen. 

People on the other side of a random battles probably don't appreciate being pitted against a division cooperating tightly against each other. I don't think it's right to sacrifice the majority for the benefit of the minority who divisions. This is asking division people to sacrifice themselves for general game balance of everyone of course. 

Equally, it's not fair to the general public when a division is drunk and dies within 2 minutes of the game. It's about equality. 

Edited by LancasterOne
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For as many unicom divisions I run into I encounter scrub divisions where dumb follows dumber into oblivion. They balance out in my experience.

The problem isn't divisions. The problem is purple pub stompers almost always team up with notoriously OPd premiums or gift ships. Balance the broken ships and the problem is solved. Trying to remember the last time I saw a division of Nurns or Izumos clean up....oh wait....never.

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don,t always win in divisions but its funner losing in a div than losing alone

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No thanks, I would rather not play queue simulator like every other available game mode. 

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3 hours ago, LancasterOne said:

Problem

A problem with divisions.

In random battles when we have a clan division all on teamspeak vs random pubbies. The game become sloped massively in favour of the team with the clan division and vice versa. If a division is really good, it's basically a free win, if it's crap, then you can just give up and farm damages before it ends. In a team based game, the quality of a division becomes a very reliable indicator of the outcome of a random game before the countdown timer even finishes. 

People want to play with friends, that's understandable but when it becomes kill-box creating pub-stomp, it becomes fun for no one but them. You're then sacrificing the benefit of the majority for the minority.

Solution

That imbalance of gameplay can easily be solved by creating "division battle arena mode" where division gets to play against other divisions who are also cooperating with each other, instead of random lemmings who can't tell the difference between turret and tourettes.

Note

I can imagine a lot of kickback from this idea of course. The same as when people suggest Graff Zepplin maybe broken, Graff Zepplin captains say it's not but I'm floating this out anyway.

Predicted Response:

"well why don't you play with other people then? Join a clan!". That doesn't solve the systemic problem, that just makes me part of the problem. 

I just focus fire on that division first, if possible.  Especially if I know they are good players.  I always target players in a division first if they are in range, just because I know they are likely more coordinated, than the others on their team, even if they aren't better.   I usually play solo, 99% of the time. If I am in a DD, I will challenge myself to sink the whole division, depending on the tiers in the match, and what else is going on. I won't throw a match to chase people around, if we're being capped out, etc.

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I feel the fact that something like this hasn't been deemed necessary, combined with the fact that divisions don't always win, is proof enough that this isn't a terribly big problem.

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17 hours ago, Landsraad said:

I feel the fact that something like this hasn't been deemed necessary, combined with the fact that divisions don't always win, is proof enough that this isn't a terribly big problem.

Earlier this year I collected data to settle that issue -- 175 games in which one side had the advantage in divisions. The team with at least one more division wins over 60% of the time.

I collected another 200 games, same thing, so I discontinued collecting since I was more interested in other data. 

Edited by Taichunger
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7 hours ago, LancasterOne said:

People on the other side of a random battles probably don't appreciate being pitted against a division cooperating tightly against each other. I don't think it's right to sacrifice the majority for the benefit of the minority who divisions. This is asking division people to sacrifice themselves for general game balance of everyone of course. 

Equally, it's not fair to the general public when a division is drunk and dies within 2 minutes of the game. It's about equality. 

Really? A laundry list of issues in game--some major, and some minor--and this is what you focus on?

As has been mentioned...some divs are good, and some are going to drag the team down. Its not like every division is smacking the holy bejesus out of the pubbies every match. When that starts to happen, then you may be on to something.

As has also been mentioned, an easy solution is for pubbies to div up at match start. The game has voice comms built in, so that would nullify somewhat the communication and coordination advantage the clan div has. 

I personally dont see anything fair or unfair about it, but I am one small voice....

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WG has probably come to the conclusion that there is no game mode, or matchmaking program, that would keep people from coming to the forum and complaining about it, so it would just be spending time and money to get a different set of complaints.

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People who argue that divisions are "just having fun with friends" instead of an easy exploit to pad win rate should remember that while going to a park with friends to have fun is generally acceptable, going to a park and briefly kidnapping people (i.e. a form of wasting their time) to have fun is quite illegal for good reason.

Want to play with friends? Go fight others who want to do the same instead of stetpedoing. Don't want to be singled out for using the OP exploit of Some Guaranteed Teamwork? Then don't use the exploit!

Edited by Guardian54
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36 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

People who argue that divisions are "just having fun with friends" instead of an easy exploit to pad win rate should remember that while going to a park with friends to have fun is generally acceptable, going to a park and briefly kidnapping people (i.e. a form of wasting their time) to have fun is quite illegal for good reason.

Want to play with friends? Go fight others who want to do the same instead of stetpedoing. Don't want to be singled out for using the OP exploit of Some Guaranteed Teamwork? Then don't use the exploit!

How is a intended feature by the game designer an exploit!What a melt you are...

Edited by Robinhood_
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I think its more the composition of the division than the division itself, of course the players skill has something to do with it lol.

CV should be excluded from divisions entirely. As much as I enjoy driving a CV (when my connection permits me), there are several problems with this class and a CV divisioned up with an AA bote and a BB spec'd for AA has a severe advantage over a non divisioned CV player.

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OK, here we go again: teams.....  Teams in videogame are a two edged sword: one, they are a way to have fun with friends and two, they create as many problems as they solve.   

We are very lucky, WG has limited Division to three.....   Anything > than 3 historically become toxic............now, toxic does not infer negative behaviors in its use here.....  Toxic means that a 1/4 of any team can contain skill levels that exceed the MM's ability to provide a "balanced game."   Three is a quarter of any team.  So, right up front, a Division becomes a very powerful positive or negative variable.   Add another Division to the match and now on-half of the "team" has brought in significantly more + or- variation.    Toxic means in this example that "gameplay can and is likely to have greater swings positively or negatively because of Division (s) involvement."   Those Division "influence" outcomes and that is what drives solo players nutts........because they have no control of those division and a "quasi-team" just ruined your game or expectations.....  There is no "we" in a FPS......  A FPS with "we" is a huge mess as the corporation straddles the line between what a real FPS is supposed to do and what WoWs really is............ 

Thank God, that Divisions are limited to 3 players......  Other games I've played have imploded because the premise of a meritocracy isn't "we" did this; but rather, it is "I" did this to be the best.....  Screw the rest of you "I are GuD" and "I".......  You can't be GuD when a Division does everything in its power to lose.....eh?!          The paradox of arcade games, yes?

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Doesn't what you're describing already exist in the form of clan battles...? Honestly. Not trolling. That is pretty much exactly what you proposed.

Also, this was tried with another WG property: World of Tanks console. They had a special queue for 7-tank platoons that would match up against others. 

And it was a hot mess, as everyone found a way to abuse it.

We would take 5 TOGs and a pair of T67s (then called T49) to spot and abuse pref MM. No one could out DPM our insane HP pool because we would often face a tier V platoon. Once it was a IV.

And that's assuming we ever got into a battle -- it took for.ev.er.

The same would happen here: folks would find an exploit (hello, CVs!) or take nothing but broken OP botes, all while waiting forever and draining the main queue.

TL,DR: Been there, done that, so no.

 

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Divisions aren't a problem, despite the fact that you apparently can't deal with them. Without the ability to Div, I know for a fact most of the better players in this game would already be gone. We like to win, that is, after having fun, the point of the game. Point of fact, while there can be only one div at times in a match, the MM tries really hard to not have that happen. 

 

Usually there's divs on both teams, so both your point and your argument are invalid.

 

I didn't grow up during the latter-day CoD MM multiplayer, I came of comp game age during the time of dedicated servers for most games, where you always got to play with your friends, and against your friends, so being able to actually play with my clan mates and other friends is very, very important to me.

 

You want to avoid facing a div? Go play Co-op.

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If we consider randomness and balance as social goods - rather than something that we like when it helps us win and dislike when it makes us lose - then it seems to me incontrovertible that divisions adversely affect play for solo players.  This is because they tend to have internal correlations of skill (good or bad) and multiplier effects (good or bad) that reduce the capacity of any given solo player to influence the result of the match relative to a solo-only random environment.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a fact.  The question is, is it worth doing anything about it, and at what cost?  I say this because there are lots of other things that also reduce the ability of a random solo player to influence a match, reduce the expression of his or her skill: carriers and carrier imbalance as well as overpowered premiums (Belfast, Saipan, GZ, Nikolai...T-61?), for starters.  I don't see any of these elements of the game disappearing anytime soon, nor do I really want them to.

If one were to do something about the division issue, rather than a "division only" game mode with long queue times, one could go the other direction and have a "solo-only" random mode that solo players could opt into, or not.  Plenty would not, I'm guessing, and thus would mix with divisions in normal Random like we have at present; queue times in both modes might be OK as a result.

(I can't resist a small dig.  You like to "play with friends"?  Great!  Show some imagination, try it out in a Karlsruhe/Phoenix/Myogi division, or Colorado/New Orleans/Yorck, rather than Gearing/Yueyang/Worcester or Saipan/Atlanta/Belfast, or similar, all the time.  Are your friends any less friends if the ships aren't or comp isn't OP?)

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Just now, Lillehuntrix said:

As far as I'm concerned, this is a fact.  The question is, is it worth doing anything about it, and at what cost? 

I'm glad there are still some people on this forum able to have a reasonable discussion.  

I see it like you do.  I'm a solo player and I don't like when divisions (or carriers) decide the match.  At the same time I'm all for people playing with friends if that's their thing.  

Just now, Lillehuntrix said:

If one were to do something about the division issue, rather than a "division only" game mode with long queue times, one could go the other direction and have a "solo-only" random mode that solo players could opt into, or not. 

A solo only venue would likely be even less populated than a division only one.  I think a division only option could work.  At peak server hours there could be a division only mode.  To keep the queue times down you could limit the tiers.  The tier spread could rotate to keep things fresh, T3 and 4 one day, T5-7 the next, and then T8-10. 

Just now, Lillehuntrix said:

I can't resist a small dig.

:cap_like:    

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1 hour ago, Guardian54 said:

People who argue that divisions are "just having fun with friends" instead of an easy exploit to pad win rate should remember that while going to a park with friends to have fun is generally acceptable, going to a park and briefly kidnapping people (i.e. a form of wasting their time) to have fun is quite illegal for good reason.

And how is divving up with friends comparable to a federal offense? You're making the same poor arguments I've seen you make elsewhere. Explain yourself, or leave.

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