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sendit2me30

Minsk revisited

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Recently I acquired the Tashkent and I really love that boat.  Firing at anything that is moving from 14 km (commander with AFT) and setting one after the other on fire.

Now I have been hearing a lot of good things about the Udaloi and Grozovoi that I decided to start that grind and bought my Minsk back. I speced her just like my Tashkent. However she is just the way I remember her when I first played Minsk: very, very disappointing. The only things that start burning are CAs and DDs but battleships - for the most part - seem to be completely immune...? What is wrong?! I play her exactly the same and only get about 10-15K of damage per game.

It is frustrating as hell.

Commander skills (currently 13 points): PT (1), LS (2), DE (3), AFT (4) 

working on an extra point to get the 4 point concealment (probably not very useful but I am planning on keeping her and moving the commander up the ladder).

 

PS - forgot to add ; it is very good at making a lot of gun fire noise.. pffff - my ears hurt after a few battles.

Edited by sendit2me30

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On 8/7/2018 at 11:38 AM, sendit2me30 said:

Recently I acquired the Tashkent and I really love that boat.  Firing at anything that is moving from 14 km (commander with AFT) and setting one after the other on fire.

Now I have been hearing a lot of good things about the Udaloi and Grozovoi that I decided to start that grind and bought my Minsk back. I speced her just like my Tashkent. However she is just the way I remember her when I first played Minsk: very, very disappointing. The only things that start burning are CAs and DDs but battleships - for the most part - seem to be completely immune...? What is wrong?! I play her exactly the same and only get about 10-15K of damage per game.

It is frustrating as hell.

Commander skills (currently 13 points): PT (1), LS (2), DE (3), AFT (4) 

working on an extra point to get the 4 point concealment (probably not very useful but I am planning on keeping her and moving the commander up the ladder).

 

PS - forgot to add ; it is very good at making a lot of gun fire noise.. pffff - my ears hurt after a few battles.

Im the #1 NA Minsk player here is my build.

PT, EM, LS, DE, BFT, AFT and IFHE.

If you don't have IFHE you are missing out on a huge amount of damage. Ships like Fuso with its armor make it almost immune without it.

Also concealment in a Russian DD is for sissies. If you are not putting every available commander point into your guns you're doing it wrong.

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37 minutes ago, IronMike11C4O said:

Im the #1 NA Minsk player here is my build.

PT, EM, LS, DE, BFT, AFT and IFHE.

If you don't have IFHE you are missing out on a huge amount of damage. Ships like Fuso with its armor make it almost immune without it.

Also concealment in a Russian DD is for sissies. If you are not putting every available commander point into your guns you're doing it wrong.

Hey IronMike - yes, eventually it went much better; guess it is also a 'getting used to' experience. Although I always seriously under performed on the high tier (T9) battles. But on T5-T7 and a few T8 all went fine.

Wouldn't you agree that the CE skill is worth having for the torpedo lin: udaloi - grozovoi? Currently at Udaloi with CE mounted.

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3 hours ago, sendit2me30 said:

Hey IronMike - yes, eventually it went much better; guess it is also a 'getting used to' experience. Although I always seriously under performed on the high tier (T9) battles. But on T5-T7 and a few T8 all went fine.

Wouldn't you agree that the CE skill is worth having for the torpedo lin: udaloi - grozovoi? Currently at Udaloi with CE mounted.

CE if you choose to go that route can be good on the Tashkent you get a slight stealth torp window, but honestly I'm all the guns. I ran CE on Tash for awhile but at the end of the day I didn't think the Torp Alpha damage was worth nerfing my guns to get it so now I run without it. 

RDF is a much more valuable skill IMHO as it allows you to hunt other DD's and drive then down and maul them with speed module they can't get away.

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3 hours ago, sendit2me30 said:

Hey IronMike - yes, eventually it went much better; guess it is also a 'getting used to' experience. Although I always seriously under performed on the high tier (T9) battles. But on T5-T7 and a few T8 all went fine.

Wouldn't you agree that the CE skill is worth having for the torpedo lin: udaloi - grozovoi? Currently at Udaloi with CE mounted.

On Groz I would take CE as I think it gets you down to about 6.0 detection which is competitive with other DD's not named Shima.

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On 8/17/2018 at 8:08 PM, Mono_De_Mantequilla said:

Does Minsk really have a faster rudder shift time than Gnevny, or is the Wiki article wrong?

cannot remember anymore how it was on the Gnevny; too long ago.  but it is really pretty good on the Minsk and better than the Kiev/Udaloi that comes after.

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Don't bother with CE on Kiev or Tashkent. They're pure dakkadakka gunboats. You're pretty much always going to be shooting, so you're pretty much always going to be spotted, and your concealment is completely irrelevant. If you absolutely must use your torps, both of them get down to about ~8km, which is the same as their torpedo range, so you -can- launch without giving away the incoming fish if you're kiting, but it's super risky and not reliable.

Leningrad's concealment is okayish with CE compared to most of its tier-mates, but other than that, the only DD you're going to outspot are other Russians. Honestly, even Leningrad isn't as nice concealment-wise as it used to be, since the likes of Gadjah, Z39, and Haida showed up. The tech tree tier 7 destroyer are really not in a very nice place right now, other than the Gadjah.

--Helms

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12 hours ago, thehelmsman said:

Don't bother with CE on Kiev or Tashkent. They're pure dakkadakka gunboats. You're pretty much always going to be shooting, so you're pretty much always going to be spotted, and your concealment is completely irrelevant. If you absolutely must use your torps, both of them get down to about ~8km, which is the same as their torpedo range, so you -can- launch without giving away the incoming fish if you're kiting, but it's super risky and not reliable.

Leningrad's concealment is okayish with CE compared to most of its tier-mates, but other than that, the only DD you're going to outspot are other Russians. Honestly, even Leningrad isn't as nice concealment-wise as it used to be, since the likes of Gadjah, Z39, and Haida showed up. The tech tree tier 7 destroyer are really not in a very nice place right now, other than the Gadjah.

--Helms

You are completely off base on your concealment values. Minimum detection for Leningrad is 6.6 km, same as Sims, better than Blyskwica's at 6.7 km, and better than Maass and Mahan which is even higher. It has a very competitive concealment for a gunboat. Minsk is just about the same as Leningrad, with the same minimum as Blyskawica at 6.7 km. Using CE on a Minsk is just as useful as using it on a Leningrad, which is very useful.

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15 hours ago, Lightninger said:

You are completely off base on your concealment values. Minimum detection for Leningrad is 6.6 km, same as Sims, better than Blyskwica's at 6.7 km, and better than Maass and Mahan which is even higher. It has a very competitive concealment for a gunboat. Minsk is just about the same as Leningrad, with the same minimum as Blyskawica at 6.7 km. Using CE on a Minsk is just as useful as using it on a Leningrad, which is very useful.

Uhhh, I said that it compares okay to most of its tier mates. You then listed a few ships that I already said it compares favorably to, while ignoring the tier 5s, 6s, 8s, 9s, and newer tier 7 premiums that it doesn't. Thus you completely miss the point I was trying to make. Of course CE is useful and pretty nice on Leningrad, but in the current tier 7 DD meta, it's less useful, and less competitive, than it used to be. Leningrad is no longer at the low end of the concealment spectrum among tier 7 DDs. In fact it's not even CLOSE to being at the low end. DD concealment at tier 7 is as follows, with full stealth:

1.) Haida -- 5.7
2.) Shiratsuyu --5.8
3-4.) Gadjah Mada & Z39 -- 6.1
----------------------------------This break marks an important point: All the ships above it are fairly recent additions to the game, and all the ships below are older, with the exception of Akatsuki. Look at the difference.
5.) Akatsuki -- 6.5
6-7.) Sims & Leningrad -- 6.6
8.) Minsk -- 6.7
9-10.) Blyskawica & Maaß -- 6.8
11.) Mahan -- 6.9

As you can see, Leningrad is pretty much in the middle of the pack, now, at least on paper. Below the break point (i.e. before we got into the current era of powercreep), Leningrad's concealment compares very well indeed. Once you look at the whole list, though, it becomes evident that Leningrad is actually closer to the worst (Mahan) in terms of its actual concealment than it is to even the joint 3rd/4th best (Gadjah and Z39). Shiratsuyu, when it was introduced, was a curious outlier that had concealment that rivaled most tier 8s, while its counterpart Akatsuki had a much more 'traditional' tier 7-like concealment that still managed to best all non-IJN DD in the tier at the time. Since then, though, we've gotten the Gadjah, and the two new premiums. And suddenly the former outlier (Shiratsuyu) has company. It's not an outlier anymore.


Concealment Expert made Leningrad an excellent boat for ranked back in the day, because it had one of the best concealment values of any tier 7 DD at that time. These days, however, it's average at best. And it's only going to get worse when the British destroyer line comes out, because Jervis will beat Leningrad as well, by .3km or so, bumping it down the list even further. With the massive powercreep going on, you're never going to outspot most of the other DD in your matchmaking spread even if you take it, so I can see the argument of foregoing concealment entirely and putting all skill points into the guns, per IronMike's suggestion. Even without taking CE, you can still stealth-torp with Leningrad with a fairly comfortable 700m buffer.

And really it's apparent, now that I think on it, that everything below the line probably deserves to have its concealment buffed by .3km at the very least.

--Helms

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23 hours ago, Lightninger said:

It has a very competitive concealment for a gunboat. Minsk is just about the same as Leningrad, with the same minimum as Blyskawica at 6.7 km. Using CE on a Minsk is just as useful as using it on a Leningrad, which is very useful.

You also missed my main point which I put in bold.

9 hours ago, thehelmsman said:

1.) Haida -- 5.7
2.) Shiratsuyu --5.8
3-4.) Gadjah Mada & Z39 -- 6.1
----------------------------------This break marks an important point: All the ships above it are fairly recent additions to the game, and all the ships below are older, with the exception of Akatsuki. Look at the difference.
5.) Akatsuki -- 6.5
6-7.) Sims & Leningrad -- 6.6
8.) Minsk -- 6.7
9-10.) Blyskawica & Maaß -- 6.8
11.) Mahan -- 6.9

Looking at your own list you provided Helms, you can compare the detection of destroyers that are better than a Leningrad/Minsk.

Shiratsuyu and Akatsuki - If you're losing to IJN destroyers in a gunfight with a Leningrad or Minsk consistently, you need significant improvement in your play.

Z-39 - This destroyer is limited to 150 mm guns that have a 7.5 second reload. Any competent gunboat captain should be able to wipe this when playing a Leningrad or Minsk.

Haida & Gadjah Mada - Both of these destroyers use the weak British 120 mm guns with floaty shells and the Gadjah Mada is unable to damage destroyers with torpedoes. Any player who is competent in playing a Leningrad or Minsk will be able to beat these in a gunfight pretty easily.

Hence my point still stands, that both Leningrad & Minsk have competitive concealment for a gunboat. While they may be in the middle compared to all tier 7 destroyers, those with lower detection pose little threat to them (Shira, Akat, Z-39) or can still easily beat them with a competent captain (Haida, Gadjah)

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11 hours ago, Lightninger said:

Shiratsuyu and Akatsuki - If you're losing to IJN destroyers in a gunfight with a Leningrad or Minsk consistently, you need significant improvement in your play.

I didn't say that. Any Leningrad/Minsk driver that can't beat IJN in a gunfight should not be playing this game. For that matter, any IJN (except maybe Akizuki and up) that seeks out a 1v1 gunfight with a healthy enemy DD needs to have their head examined.
 

11 hours ago, Lightninger said:

Z-39 - This destroyer is limited to 150 mm guns that have a 7.5 second reload. Any competent gunboat captain should be able to wipe this when playing a Leningrad or Minsk.

Haida & Gadjah Mada - Both of these destroyers use the weak British 120 mm guns with floaty shells and the Gadjah Mada is unable to damage destroyers with torpedoes. Any player who is competent in playing a Leningrad or Minsk will be able to beat these in a gunfight pretty easily.

I didn't say Z-39 was troublesome either, at least on in a 1v1 gun duel. Haida and Gadjah can be a handful if they're competently played, because they have more guns and either a better toolkit (Haida) or ridiculous forward turret arcs that allow for minimal target profile while still keeping all guns firing (Gadjah). But this isn't the issue I'm getting at. DD fights rarely happen in isolation. It's hardly ever a 1v1 duel. These mythical DD knife-fights where maneuvering and gun handling decides the winner, which so many guys talk about on the forums, hardly ever seem to happen in the actual game. This is because when a DD gets spotted, it usually becomes kill priority number one for the entire enemy team. Getting spotted first is not a desirable trait. Being able to keep an enemy spotted without being spotted yourself is always a desirable trait. This is where the huge concealment advantage of the ships above the line comes into play. It matters in most situations. Usually DD fights are decided by positioning and DPM. Concealment directly factors into this, because if you have an advantage in concealment, you are less likely to get caught out where you're vulnerable. A Z39, Haida, Shiratsuyu, or Gadjah need never fire their guns to beat a Leningrad. They only need to not get counter-spotted by it, so their teammates either kill it or force it to disengage.

Don't assume that I'm poo-poohing the Leningrad's overall combat capability. I'm not. I mentioned no combat parameters other than the concealment, yet you seem to insist that I'm judging it on any (even every) aspect other than that. Leningrad (and Minsk, I guess, despite the worse concealment and much worse torps) is a very strong tier 7 DD. It's hella fast and has good guns and decent torps. It simply lacks the concealment advantage that it USED to enjoy, because of the powercreep. It is objectively less strong in its tier than it was a year or so ago just because of that. Doesn't mean it's a bad ship. It's still one of the best premiums in the game, tier for tier, that isn't named Belfast, Kutuzov, Gremyashchy, or Nikolai. It's just not obviously the strongest DD in the tier any more in almost all situations.

My point is, and always was, that with Leningrad's concealment advantage not really being a thing any more, it is not necessarily a bad practice to ignore concealment entirely and just play it like any other Russian gunboat: NYOOOOOOOM DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA.

--Helms

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