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JediMasterDraco

HE Pen Chart

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Currently I'm in a bit of a pickle. I'm currently trying to determine what ships it is worth taking IFHE on and which it is not. I figured I'd toss out a bit of a challenge for the wiki crew if they have the time:

On the page detailing HE penetration, maybe you guys could include a chart that lists the extremity armor for ships at that tier and give size requirements (without and with IFHE) that would be required to penetrate it.

@RivertheRoyal@mrmariokartguy what do you think?

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Here are ones I have looked up recently. They are all not detailed, but I did check the MM spread for these first ones.

 

Kiev has 130mm guns. Without IFHE, 130mm guns can pen 21mm of armor. With IFHE, 130mm guns can pen 27mm of armor. So you don't need IFHE vs DDs, but IFHE on Kiev comes in handy vs cruisers and T6 & T7 BB bows.

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The 130mm guns on the Bogatyr pen 20mm of armor without IFHE and pen 27mm of armor with IFHE.

The Umikaze has 25mm of side plating, so IFHE helps with 1 DD in the T2-T4 range. None of the rest of the DDs can withstand 130mm HE.

The Svietlana has 25mm side plating, so IFHE helps with that, but the citadel armor on all of these cruisers is too tough for IFHE; St Louis, Phoenix, Svietlana, Caledon, and Danae. The rest can be penned without IFHE.

The Kawachi, Myogi, South Carolina and Nassau all have 25mm of deck plating, so IFHE will help with that. The Kaiser has 25mm of Torpedo bulges, so IFHE will help with that.

The Mikasa, Kawachi, Myogi, Ishizuchi, South Carolina, Wyoming, Nikolai I, Kaiser, Bellerophon, Orion, Turenne, and Courbet all can be penned fore and aft without IFHE.  

Looking at this, I'm not so sure that IFHE is all that great for Bogatyr, until you have a 14+pt captain, if then. AFT and CE seem more useful for 4 point skills. YMMV

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Orion has 102mm secondaries and 343mm main guns. 

Without IFHE, the 102mm guns can pen 16mm of armor and the main guns can pen 56mm of armor.

With IFHE, the 102mm guns can pen 21mm of armor and the main guns can pen 73mm of armor.

The armor on T3-T5 DDs is mostly 6mm to 15mm thick, so IFHE isn't needed for most DDs. The Okhotnik and T-22 have 16mm of side armor (less fore and aft) so IFHE will help with those two.

There are only 2 CLs that have citadel belt armor that IFHE will help the main guns with and they are; Tenryu has 63mm citadel belt armor (6mm fore and aft) and Karlsruhe has 60mm of belt armor (10mm plating).

All of these CL/CAs have thick enough citadel belt armor that IFHE still won't penetrate with the main guns, Furutaka, St Louis, Phoenix, Marblehead, Omaha, Murmansk, Svietlana, Krasny Krym, Caledon, Danae and Emerald. Everything else can be penned in the belt without IFHE. 

IFHE on the 102mm secondary guns can pen the fore and aft of the Myogi, Ishizuchi, Kongos, Wyoming, Texas, New York, Nikolai I, Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya, Kaiser, Konig, Orion, Iron Duke, Courbet, Bretagne, and Giulio Cesare. The main guns don't have a difference on BB armor with or without IFHE as the armor is either under 56mm or over 73mm.

Now, since the Orion secondaries have a 3.5km range (4.2km with AFT), I don't think it would be worth it to put IFHE on the Orion, but YMMV.

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Here are some more general IFHE items.

100mm IJN guns, primaries and secondaries can pen 24mm of armor without IFHE. With IFHE IJN 100mm guns can pen 32mm of armor.

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127mm guns can pen 20mm of armor without IFHE. With IFHE 127mm guns can pen 27mm of armor.

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The 150mm to 152mm shells can pen 24mm of plate. A lot of BBs get 25mm plate in the mid tiers, so IFHE, which pens 32mm of armor for a 150-152mm, is helpful then. The 155mm shells can pen 25mm of armor, but IFHE gives them 33mm of pen, so it is helpful when seeing 32mm of armor at the higher tiers.

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The 180mm shells can pen 29mm of armor, but IFHE can give 38mm of pen. So for ships seeing armor of 32mm, IFHE is helpful for 180mm guns.

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150mm German T4+ cruiser guns can pen 36mm of armor without IFHE. With IFHE 150mm German T4+ cruiser guns can pen 48mm of armor.

203mm guns can pen 32mm of armor without IFHE.  With IFHE 203mm guns can pen 42mm of armor. The usual jump is from 32mm to 50mm, so IFHE doesn't help regular 203mm guns much at all.

German 203mm guns on T8+ cruisers can pen 49mm of armor without IFHE. German 203mm guns on T8+ cruisers can pen 64mm of armor, so can cross that 50mm threshold.

German 210mm guns on the Yorck can pen 51mm of armor without IFHE. The Yorck's 210mm guns with IFHE can pen 67mm of armor.

The 283mm guns on the Graf Spee's and the Scharnhorst can pen 69mm of armor without IFHE. With IFHE those 283mm guns can pen 91mm of armor. I think there might be some cruisers with belts less than 91mm, but hitting them with AP would be better IMO.

 

 

Here is the wiki to the HE pen and how IFHE is calculated. Basically, look at the gun(s) you want to see if IFHE can help with. Calculate the HE pen and IFHE pen. Then check the MM spread to see if you need IFHE or if it is a toss up depending on what you can pen.

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

 

Here is the MM spread for a ship in a particular tier.

T1 sees T1

T2 sees T2 & T3

T3 sees T2-T4

T4 sees T3-T5

T5 sees T4-T7

T6 sees T5-T8

T7 sees T5-T9

T8 sees T6-T10

T9 sees T7-T10

T10 sees T8-T10

 

P.S. Everyone complains about T5, but why does no one complain about T2? T5 can be top tier over T4s, but T2 only sees same tier or is bottom tier. :)

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1 hour ago, JediMasterDraco said:

Currently I'm in a bit of a pickle. I'm currently trying to determine what ships it is worth taking IFHE on and which it is not. I figured I'd toss out a bit of a challenge for the wiki crew if they have the time:

On the page detailing HE penetration, maybe you guys could include a chart that lists the extremity armor for ships at that tier and give size requirements (without and with IFHE) that would be required to penetrate it.

@RivertheRoyal@mrmariokartguy what do you think?

Much work needed to design that. From my point of view it would be easier to find info here http://proships.ru/stat/na/ships for every ship.

Here is how it looks like for Worcester (GREEN - penetrate without IFHE, ORANGE - with IFHE, RED - does not penetrate with IFHE):

Spoiler

9vgl3wMoh0g.jpg

 

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Yeah you really don't need IFHE on Yorck, DE if anything. On Scharnhorst, IFHE is a waste of a skill. However, long ago I tested IFHE on Scharnhorst and got citadels on Omaha and other light cruisers. (or anything with an exposed citadel) Excellent damage for HE, it wasn't nearly as strong as AP cits but was funny nonetheless because....."Oh he's just firing HE, I don't need to turn"

Also of note, the Karlsruhe HE shell has .01 ' Projectile detonator' vs .001 for other HE shells. Idk if this means anything.
Karl also has slightly higher HE alpha than Konigsberg. Poor Karlsruhe needs range buff though to be any fun for me.

Edited by Marine_Diesel

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To pen high tier BB Bow armor, 32mm, you need a minimum caliber of 192mm with all but German. For Germans you need 128mm. To penetrate 50mm (the side of a khaba or Yammy deck armor) you need to be the Hindy, or the Henri IV with IFHE. So to go over the rules here, most ships follow the 1/6 rule for HE pen. Take the caliber, divide by 6 to get your pen without HE. From there you can add 30% to find your new pen with IFHE. German cruisers tier 4+ as well as the newly buffed Japanese 100mm guns follow a 1/4 rule. Which is why the 203mm guns from the Hindy can pen 50mm of armor - 203/4=50.75. To decide whether or not to use IFHE, it might be better to work backwards. What armor values do you want to pen? 19mm? 25mm? 27mm? 32mm? 50mm? You can multiply those numbers by 6 or 4 depending on your ship so see what caliber is needed to pen, if your guns are just shy, add IFHE. It's good to know what your pen benchmarks are moving forward. The significance of the armor values mentioned are as follows: 19mm - (High tier DD armor and most ship's superstructure armor), 25mm - (Mid tier Cruiser bow armor) 27 - (high tier Cruiser bow armor and mid tier to tier 8 BB bow armor) 32mm - (High tier BB armor) 50mm - (Khaba side armor, Yammy deck armor and Moskva bow armor)

2 hours ago, Marine_Diesel said:

Also of note, the Karlsruhe HE shell has .01 ' Projectile detonator' vs .001 for other HE shells. Idk if this means anything.

This is because the Karlsruhe follows the 1/4 HE pen rule.. The longer delay between contact and detonation means it can pen more.

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3 hours ago, SnipeySnipes said:

To pen high tier BB Bow armor, 32mm, you need a minimum caliber of 192mm with all but German. For Germans you need 128mm. To penetrate 50mm (the side of a khaba or Yammy deck armor) you need to be the Hindy, or the Henri IV with IFHE. So to go over the rules here, most ships follow the 1/6 rule for HE pen. Take the caliber, divide by 6 to get your pen without HE. From there you can add 30% to find your new pen with IFHE. German cruisers tier 4+ as well as the newly buffed Japanese 100mm guns follow a 1/4 rule. Which is why the 203mm guns from the Hindy can pen 50mm of armor - 203/4=50.75. To decide whether or not to use IFHE, it might be better to work backwards. What armor values do you want to pen? 19mm? 25mm? 27mm? 32mm? 50mm? You can multiply those numbers by 6 or 4 depending on your ship so see what caliber is needed to pen, if your guns are just shy, add IFHE. It's good to know what your pen benchmarks are moving forward. The significance of the armor values mentioned are as follows: 19mm - (High tier DD armor and most ship's superstructure armor), 25mm - (Mid tier Cruiser bow armor) 27 - (high tier Cruiser bow armor and mid tier to tier 8 BB bow armor) 32mm - (High tier BB armor) 50mm - (Khaba side armor, Yammy deck armor and Moskva bow armor)

This is because the Karlsruhe follows the 1/4 HE pen rule.. The longer delay between contact and detonation means it can pen more.

 

That is slightly incorrect. Here are the rules per the wiki HE pen.  http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

1. Take your caliber and divide by 6.

2. Round the resulting figure down if it is .5 or below. Round up if it is above .5.

3. The resulting figure is the shatter threshold. HE rounds will shatter on armor this thick or thicker. Armor less thick will be penned.

        ex. 127mm gun divided by 6 is 21.167mm. Round the .167 down to result in 21mm. 127mm HE shatters on 21mm or more of armor and pens 20mm or below.

       ex. 130mm gun divided by 6 is 21.667mm. Round the .667 up to result in 22mm. 127mm HE shatters on 22mm or more of armor and pens 21mm or below. 

       (Yes, sometimes your method reveals the right number, but can mess up the IFHE number if you do not round properly.)

4. For IFHE, take the rounded shatter number and multiple by 1.3. Do not round this number. If the number has a remainder, then it pens the rounded down armor.

     ex. 127mm gun divided by 6 is 21.167mm. Round the .167 down to result in 21mm.  21mm times 1.3 is 27.3mm, so 127 IFHE pens 27mm of armor.

     ex. 130mm gun divided by 6 is 21.667mm. Round the .667 up to result in 22mm.  22mm times 1.3 is 28.6mm, so 130mm IFHE pens 28mm of armor.

     ex. 152mm gun divided by 6 is 25.33mm. Round the .33 down to 25mm and the gun pens 24mm of armor. 25mm times 1.3 is 32.5, which would in the first step, be rounded down. But the IFHE step does not round, so 152mm IFHE pens 32mm of armor.

    ex 180mm gun divide by 6 is 30mm, so it can pen 29mm of armor. 30mm times 1.3 is 39mm, so 180mm IFHE can pen 38mm of armor.

 

So your Hindy example is technically correct, but by accident. It would be wrong for IFHE though.

    203mm divided by 4 is 50.75mm, rounded to 51mm. So 51mm shatters HE, but pens 50mm or below. 51mm times 1.3 is 66.3mm meaning it can pen 66mm armor. 50.75mm times 1.3 is 65.975mm, so by your method it would pen 65mm which is wrong.

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I omitted details yes, but never quoted "65mm" however, the concept does still remain. And unless you're a mental math wiz (maybe you are), most can't figure out most of this in their head on the fly which is why I noted specific armor values which are significant to the game without specific caliber-pen values. Further, adding 30% to something is the same as multiplying it by 1.3

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3 minutes ago, SnipeySnipes said:

I omitted details yes, but never quoted "65mm" however, the concept does still remain. And unless you're a mental math wiz (maybe you are), most can't figure out most of this in their head on the fly which is why I noted specific armor values which are significant to the game without specific caliber-pen values. Further, adding 30% to something is the same as multiplying it by 1.3

I never said that you quoted 65mm. Just that by the method you were using, it would come out to the wrong value. I was doing the same thing until I took a closer look at the wiki and saw the rounding on the regular HE pen. That rounding can make a difference over just multiplying by the 1/6 or 1/4 by 1.3.

 

Yep, that is why I multiplied by 1.3 for the +30%.

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15 hours ago, turbo07 said:

Much work needed to design that. From my point of view it would be easier to find info here http://proships.ru/stat/na/ships for every ship.

Here is how it looks like for Worcester (GREEN - penetrate without IFHE, ORANGE - with IFHE, RED - does not penetrate with IFHE):

  Reveal hidden contents

9vgl3wMoh0g.jpg

 

Is there a language switch button on that site?? 

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Yes, rounding would make a difference. Which is why I find it easier to work "backwards" from the target armor thickness than work from the shell caliber and divide. 25mm x 6 is 150mm, so my 152mm HE will not pen 25mm unless I use IFHE - makes the decision a bit more black and white.

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18 hours ago, turbo07 said:

Much work needed to design that. From my point of view it would be easier to find info here http://proships.ru/stat/na/ships for every ship.

Here is how it looks like for Worcester (GREEN - penetrate without IFHE, ORANGE - with IFHE, RED - does not penetrate with IFHE):

  Reveal hidden contents

9vgl3wMoh0g.jpg

 

what is b/s , s, d, etc?

 

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18 hours ago, turbo07 said:

Much work needed to design that. From my point of view it would be easier to find info here http://proships.ru/stat/na/ships for every ship.

Here is how it looks like for Worcester (GREEN - penetrate without IFHE, ORANGE - with IFHE, RED - does not penetrate with IFHE):

  Reveal hidden contents

9vgl3wMoh0g.jpg

 

 

6 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

what is b/s , s, d, etc?

 

 

I'm thinking the following as these match the numbers in the chart Turbo07 provided for the armor values for those locations on the DM.

b/s would be bow/stern

s would be side, above the armor belt

d would be deck

ss would be superstructure

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4 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

what is b/s , s, d, etc?

4 hours ago, Kizarvexis said:

I'm thinking the following as these match the numbers in the chart Turbo07 provided for the armor values for those locations on the DM.

b/s would be bow/stern

s would be side, above the armor belt

d would be deck

ss would be superstructure

Thank you, that's right. Use mouse for tips, there are some. 

7 hours ago, Ducky_shot said:

Is there a language switch button on that site?? 

It may appear in the future. There is only duplication now. 

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