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Bacl

German 105mm HE getting the 1/4 rule

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Well ever since the USN Massachusetts came out i was expecting the forums to shatter under the screams over the " those secondaries are OP please nerf!!!!"

 

Well i been around the forum and searched for threads about it and couldn't find anything, even if the Massachusetts is pretty much over performing everything that was before it (even tho the Germans are supposed to the king in "secondaryness") maybe its time to simply make things simpler and remove the exceptions all together.

Give the Germans all their HE the 1/4 rule, i know the naysayers will scream "OP" but looking at the Massachusetts  there is really no reasons to make that claim because that ship is showing everybody else what a secondary boat is supposed to do.

 

I am not calling for a nerf on the newest ship but considering how poorly the Germans BB's are performing compared to the other nations this could be a step in the right direction to make them a bit more competitive.

 

What do you guys think?

 

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Hmm, you may be on to something, but I think they do ok for their role. However, I think they need to just tone down the fire chance and slightly increase torp protection. Yes the KMS ships are brawlers, but they are tinder boxes that leak a lot also. You are most likely to burn or flood to death than straight pen death. I suggest and would rather see them buff dot protection vice secondary buffs.  Since AP bombs are a thing now, I would also like to see T9 and T10 get a buff to AA. Not a range increase, but a dpm increase.

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10 minutes ago, Bacl said:

Well ever since the USN Massachusetts came out i was expecting the forums to shatter under the screams over the " those secondaries are OP please nerf!!!!"

Because it isn’t.

11 minutes ago, Bacl said:

Give the Germans all their HE the 1/4 rule, i know the naysayers will scream "OP" but looking at the Massachusetts  there is really no reasons to make that claim because that ship is showing everybody else what a secondary boat is supposed to do.

German BBs were nered their fire chance I believe and was replaced with 1/4.  If WG gives the 1/4 I can garuntee you they’ll do the same with the 105mm.

17 minutes ago, Bacl said:

I am not calling for a nerf on the newest ship but considering how poorly the Germans BB's are performing compared to the other nations this could be a step in the right direction to make them a bit more competitive.

Because German BBs are recommended to new players.  Think about that.  You can pretty much put them on auto pilot and watch them go.

 

The only German 105mm I’d like to see buffed is the T-22.  Even with 360 degree turning, it still sucks.

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3 minutes ago, agrims said:

Hmm, you may be on to something, but I think they do ok for their role. However, I think they need to just tone down the fire chance and slightly increase torp protection. Yes the KMS ships are brawlers, but they are tinder boxes that leak a lot also. You are most likely to burn or flood to death than straight pen death. I suggest and would rather see them buff dot protection vice secondary buffs.  Since AP bombs are a thing now, I would also like to see T9 and T10 get a buff to AA. Not a range increase, but a dpm increase.

Well i am not against what you suggest but this is another topic all togheter, even if AP bombs are a huge thing for them and yes they to ignite and flood a lot the subject of this topic is just about secondaries and how they perform overall but yeah i would like a few buffs on in that area too :cap_look:

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Well, fire chance for US secondaries is already garbo, so getting IFHE for free saves US Captains/Admirals 4 skill points.

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Better secondaries should be mandatory on all BBs. If BBs have good secondaries drivers will move up to use them.

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9 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Better secondaries should be mandatory on all BBs. If BBs have good secondaries drivers will move up to use them.

At LEAST decent secondaries.  The Massachusetts was a step in the right direction for what should be base line accuracy for secondaries.  Right now if you don't take skills and modules to buff up their accuracy they are a pretty and completely ineffectual light show.  Even buffing up accuracy on them doesn't solve the problem of low penetration values,  but at least it ensures you have more chances at dealing damage.

Secondary build are already situational as all get out,  at the very least they need to be high effective in those situations and not just mediocre.

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20 minutes ago, Palladia said:

At LEAST decent secondaries.  The Massachusetts was a step in the right direction for what should be base line accuracy for secondaries.  Right now if you don't take skills and modules to buff up their accuracy they are a pretty and completely ineffectual light show.  Even buffing up accuracy on them doesn't solve the problem of low penetration values,  but at least it ensures you have more chances at dealing damage.

Secondary build are already situational as all get out,  at the very least they need to be high effective in those situations and not just mediocre.

The thing is we all know that power creep is a thing in this game but the latest one is actually putting everything else to shame by setting the example of what secondaries should be all about.

Massachusetts has the caliber, fire rate and a lot more accuracy than all the others, its a good ship but there is no point playing any other secondary ship since that thing is eclipsing the competition.

Bringing the others to the same level  for greater diversity: USN got accuracy, French got fire chance and the Germans got the penetration but overall they should be similar with only a few perks bound to their nations.

 

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15 minutes ago, Bacl said:

The thing is we all know that power creep is a thing in this game but the latest one is actually putting everything else to shame by setting the example of what secondaries should be all about.

Massachusetts has the caliber, fire rate and a lot more accuracy than all the others, its a good ship but there is no point playing any other secondary ship since that thing is eclipsing the competition.

Bringing the others to the same level  for greater diversity: USN got accuracy, French got fire chance and the Germans got the penetration but overall they should be similar with only a few perks bound to their nations.

 

I can agree with that.  But...I dunno that French BB's need a buff to that fire chance.  That 12% might not look like a lot on paper,  but when you're slinging nine rounds down every eight seconds or so it really,  really adds up.  Course that's forcing you broadside,  but both the Alsace and the Republic have fore mounted 152's,  the Rep even has TWO of them.  

Anyway,  more on point,  I've brought this up before but secondaries need a decent sized buff to accuracy.  No,  not enough to make them capable of dealing with a DD alone,  but enough to warrant caution when entering into secondary range if you're a less than armored ship.  And for those who go full secondaries,  they need to make up for the fact that you're giving up a lot of main gun accuracy ((And thus,  damage)) for them.  Yes,  those matches where you get three and four hundred secondary hits SOUND nice,  but generally speaking thats not going to account for even a third of your damage if you're doing your job right.  I think that having the capability to stay in secondary range and keep them firing on target while staying alive is a skillset all its own,  and right now even speccing full brawling isn't exactly super rewarding.

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56 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Better secondaries should be mandatory on all BBs. If BBs have good secondaries drivers will move up to use them.

BB's secondaries are nerfed by design for game balance. US BB's secondaries are the same guns as on US DD's. The range should be the same as on a DD and as accurate but it is not.  WG must be careful because better BB secondaries could be far more deadlier to DD's than radar. This would cause a serious unbalancing.

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If small things like IFHE value is the decider of a nation's flavor. WG should recheck their design philosophy.

 

Currently, it seems, quality of life improvements for certain lines simply normalized certain values that were deliberatively gimped, for the sake of "flavor". WG's not going to win re-election to the major of flavor town with that kind of design. This will only get worse as more ships and more nations and more lines coming out.

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Just now, kgh52 said:

BB's secondaries are nerfed by design for game balance. US BB's secondaries are the same guns as on US DD's. The range should be the same as on a DD and as accurate but it is not.  WG must be careful because better BB secondaries could be far more deadlier to DD's than radar. This would cause a serious unbalancing.

Oh god yes,  I don't think anyone with any sense wants the guns to have the range they are supposed to have,  nor the accuracy.   They just need to perform a lot better baseline and a decent chunk better if you specialize in them.  But not...y'know...fifteen km range and laser accurate.

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1 minute ago, NeutralState said:

If small things like IFHE value is the decider of a nation's flavor. WG should recheck their design philosophy.

 

Currently, it seems, quality of life improvements for certain lines simply normalized certain values that were deliberatively gimped, for the sake of "flavor". WG's not going to win re-election to the major of flavor town with that kind of design. This will only get worse as more ships and more nations and more lines coming out.

Well they have more than enough stats to play with if they want to give each nation a perk for their secondaries: US got accuracy, Germany the penetration, France the fire chances, Royal navy could hit a bit harder on the raw damage while INJ could have the fire rate advantage.

Dont quote me on this i m just throwing thing on the wall here but it is possible to play around a bit. People were screaming about how the Bismark and the Tirpitz secondaries were OP but since the Massachusetts  came out not even 1 person as been outraged at how good that thing really is.

9 minutes ago, Palladia said:

I can agree with that.  But...I dunno that French BB's need a buff to that fire chance.  That 12% might not look like a lot on paper,  but when you're slinging nine rounds down every eight seconds or so it really,  really adds up.  Course that's forcing you broadside,  but both the Alsace and the Republic have fore mounted 152's,  the Rep even has TWO of them.  

Anyway,  more on point,  I've brought this up before but secondaries need a decent sized buff to accuracy.  No,  not enough to make them capable of dealing with a DD alone,  but enough to warrant caution when entering into secondary range if you're a less than armored ship.  And for those who go full secondaries,  they need to make up for the fact that you're giving up a lot of main gun accuracy ((And thus,  damage)) for them.  Yes,  those matches where you get three and four hundred secondary hits SOUND nice,  but generally speaking thats not going to account for even a third of your damage if you're doing your job right.  I think that having the capability to stay in secondary range and keep them firing on target while staying alive is a skillset all its own,  and right now even speccing full brawling isn't exactly super rewarding.

French secondaries already have a high fire chance but abyssal damage, Richelieu and Gascogne could use a slight buff in fire rate but appart from that they already have a little less range and next to damage, they are almost balanced compared to the rest but compared to the Alsace they are more than just 1 tier below.

 

Overall howver like it was mentionned before: Massachusetts  is paving the way for what secondaries should be and now its time to raise the others and level things out.

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2 hours ago, Bacl said:

but considering how poorly the Germans BB's are performing

Huh?  Only two are below 50% WR

 

68699D14-03A2-4C8E-AAAF-0DA7F935F948.png

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4 minutes ago, Palladia said:

Oh god yes,  I don't think anyone with any sense wants the guns to have the range they are supposed to have,  nor the accuracy.   They just need to perform a lot better baseline and a decent chunk better if you specialize in them.  But not...y'know...fifteen km range and laser accurate.

The point is game balance is WG's top priority. In any discussion about BB's secondaries we must consider how a change will effect the game balance.

BTW, I sure a lot of BB drivers would love to have the range & accuracy of actual WW2 BB's mains secondaries along with the ability to spot DD's at realistic ranges. But, for the good of the game it ain't gonna happen.

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3 minutes ago, n00bot said:

Huh?  Only two are below 50% WR

 

68699D14-03A2-4C8E-AAAF-0DA7F935F948.png

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9 minutes ago, n00bot said:

Huh?  Only two are below 50% WR

 

68699D14-03A2-4C8E-AAAF-0DA7F935F948.png

Never check the win rate, its a team based game and you can carry as  hard as you want if they let you down you cant win.

 

Check the other stats like damage, survival, etc.  Germans BB are all in the lower ranks on almost every category. They have armor and speed but they lack on everything else, poor AA, terrible accuracy, bad penetration, poor torpedo defense.

Their thing were the secondaries and they had the complementary tools to support it but even that is being taken away by either the French or the Americans.

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Was pretty sure the 1/4 rule applied to all German guns, even secondaries, but I could be wrong. One of those things that had mixed reporting and never figured out who was right.

 

1 hour ago, agrims said:

Since AP bombs are a thing now, I would also like to see T9 and T10 get a buff to AA. Not a range increase, but a dpm increase.

As a German BB player, and a CV player - no. Not counting 20 mm guns that have limited use really, the tier 9 has 400 DPS roughly, 10 has better range but 319. Both are going to have BFT by default in the skill choice of secondary build, that's 20% to 480 and 382. You can get maybe an extra round per minute on secondaries, or, up the AA another 25% - 600 DPS and 477 DPS. You add the flag for it, 660 DPS, 527 DPS. Against the TB's, your talking between 16% on the low end against Essex/Midway (the GK no buffs) and about 34% on the high end (Freddy, max buffs). And for some perspective where that sits, Iowa, a known AA monster, again removing the 20 mm guns, sits at 450 DPS stock top hull. Lion is 527 DPS. And these see tier 7 and 8 ships, with even less HP to their planes, that even buffing Freddy a little puts it closer and closer to the Iowa/Lion no fly zone. 

What they should do is nerf AP bombs. The ones they use in game, the AP bomb has roughly 1/3rd of the explosives as the HE bomb, and bare in mind the max damage of bombs is if the hit the citadel, same as shells, so, between both realism (in terms of destruction ratio) and really balance, they should be hitting about as hard as a light cruiser when they hit the citadel. Meaning that a full USN squadron with AS skill maxes out at 21k damage. The answer have never been simply buff the AA, wargaming has tried that, multiple times, and failed, it's fixing the damn things that need to be fixed. AP damage is too high, I said it when E came out, I say it even more now that I have the tech tree ships with it, and GZ tripled that, Instead of screwing around and trying to fix it by adjusting something else, just nerf the damned AP bombs. 

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59 minutes ago, n00bot said:

Huh?  Only two are below 50% WR

 

68699D14-03A2-4C8E-AAAF-0DA7F935F948.png

Issue is really around tier 8 where the damage, w/r (compared to the other non premium ships), etc really start to drop off and is generally 4th of 5 ships, sometimes by a gap, with only USN usually being consistently worse - another line that needs a bit of stuff to buff a bit. 51% is good, but the others your talking like at times 53, 54%

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No additional buffs needed for a game weapon system that automatically grants damage and kills without even looking at a target.

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12 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

No additional buffs needed for a game weapon system that automatically grants damage and kills without even looking at a target.

Well considering the investment those systems requires in commander points and modules + the fact that even if they are automatic they are not as effective as the regular weapons like main guns or torpedoes. Also the fact they are an option in the game should make them a viable option non the less.

 

Massachusetts is where things should be but since it is blowing all competition out of the water and that there is no outrage on the forums creaming "OP" i don't see why the others secondary shouldn't get some love too.

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23 minutes ago, Bacl said:

Well considering the investment those systems requires in commander points and modules + the fact that even if they are automatic they are not as effective as the regular weapons like main guns or torpedoes. Also the fact they are an option in the game should make them a viable option non the less.

 

Massachusetts is where things should be but since it is blowing all competition out of the water and that there is no outrage on the forums creaming "OP" i don't see why the others secondary shouldn't get some love too.

And they should NEVER reach the effectiveness of primary weapon systems, especially when Secondaries in this game are automatic and get you free damage and kills.

 

Massachusetts isn't blowing the competition out of the water.  Been rather fond of tormenting those things with my Cruisers and Battleships.

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9 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

And they should NEVER reach the effectiveness of primary weapon systems, especially when Secondaries in this game are automatic and get you free damage and kills.

 

Massachusetts isn't blowing the competition out of the water.  Been rather fond of tormenting those things with my Cruisers and Battleships.

By competition i am talking about other ships notorious for their secondaries not all ships, also Massachusetts  secondaries are the best in the game right now but they are not better than the main armaments so there is no problem in bringing all the others to its the level.

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19 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

another line that needs a bit of stuff to buff a bit. 51% is good, but the others your talking like at times 53, 54%

Meaning the others need a nerf!

Only a BB player would think that a 51% WR is underperforming. 

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