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Does WOW purposely screw over DDs?

Does WOW screw over DDs?  

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  1. 1. Does WOW screw over DDs with nerfs and/or meta changes?

    • Yes
      45
    • No
      45

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WOW has known about the "broken" BB AP damage which has screwed DDs for over a year.  Won't fix it.  (Today, I took at 95% single volley through the stern AND a 60% single volley broadside.  There is no right move to make.)

WOW added MASSIVE radar to the game screwing DDs.  (I was lit up 7 times in a T8 game last week and my whole game was running around and/or away.  Reminded me why I stopped playing stealth/cap/torp DDs T8 and up.)

WOW removed stealth fire screwing DDs.

WOW increased spotting when firing from smoke screwing DDs.

WOW's proposed the "fix" to the aforementioned "broken" AP is to reduce DD armor thereby allowing ALL OTHER SHIPS to cause more even damage to DDs screwing DDs even more then WOW already has.

If BBs had a single nerf even remotely close it would be anarchy.  If WOW proposed, for example, to reduce the fire chance on a BB, something BBs whine incessantly about, by increasing the AP damage to a BB there would be anarchy.  But, screw DDs over and over and over and over and over again and that's just peachy.

/rant

Edited by nhf
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These are all reasons why I play fire-sprewing CL's almost exclusively.  Not just to screw DD's but to burn BB's down to the water line.  The tears; oh, the tears.

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OWSF was removed because Cruisers where effectively Hard-Countering BBs which they're supposed to be countered by. 

OWSF removal vs DDs was a side effect; at these ranges the TTT was so high it was easily avoidable when being spammed by a DD spec'ed for OWSF. 

The smoke spotting Nerf was because BBs and Cruisers were getting massive concealment buffs when in a smoke cloud. 

It's affect on DDs is almost o different then if a ship was running TASM1 and pressin to Assured Detectability Range (3.0km w/TASM1). 

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23 minutes ago, nhf said:

WOW has known about the "broken" BB AP damage which has screwed DDs for over a year.  Won't fix it.  (Today, I took at 95% single volley through stern AND a 60% single volley broadside.  There is no right move to make.) 

Yeah, that can be a bit annoying... although the "double dipping" is more troublesome IMO. 

23 minutes ago, nhf said:

WOW added MASSIVE radar to the game to screw DDs.  (I was lit up 7 times in a T8 game last week and my whole game was running around and/or away.  Reminded me why stopped playing stealth/cap/trop DDs T8 and up.)

Radar saturation can be a problem, particularly with new line releases like the USN CA/CL split. 1-3 radars per team is perfectly manageable. 

23 minutes ago, nhf said:

WOW removed stealth fire to screw DDs.

There were only a couple DDs that actively abused OWSF. Gremyashchy and Blyskawica. It was a larger nerf to cruisers.

23 minutes ago, nhf said:

WOW increased spotting when firing from smoke to screw DDs.

That actually screws over big ships, not DDs. Battleships and cruisers can no longer spam away with impunity from smoke. DDs still can for the most part. 

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT
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29 minutes ago, nhf said:

WOW has known about the "broken" BB AP damage which has screwed DDs for over a year.  Won't fix it.  (Today, I took at 95% single volley through stern AND a 60% single volley broadside.  There is no right move to make.)

WOW added MASSIVE radar to the game to screw DDs.  (I was lit up 7 times in a T8 game last week and my whole game was running around and/or away.  Reminded me why stopped playing stealth/cap/trop DDs T8 and up.)

WOW removed stealth fire to screw DDs.

WOW increased spotting when firing from smoke to screw DDs.

WOW's proposed the "fix" to the aforementioned "broken" AP is to reduce DD armor thereby allowing ALL OTHER SHIPS to cause more even damage to DDs to screw DDs even more than WOW already has.

If BBs had a single nerf even remotely close it would be anarchy.  If WOW proposed, for example, to reduce the fire chance on a BB, something BBs whine incessantly about, by increasing the AP damage to a BB there would be anarchy.  But, screw DDs over and over and over and over and over again and that's just peachy.

/rant

For your own safety, please take off the tin foil hat and step back from the keyboard.  

 

 

1. "Broken" BB AP: They're trying to fix it.  Be patient, for crying out loud.

2. Radar:  For crying out loud.  They add a USN CL line, and radar is supposed to be one thing that USN cruisers mount.  People play the ships in a new line pretty heavily after the release, so what the heck do you expect to happen?  JEEEZ.

3. Removal of stealth fire.  And a damned good thing this removal was.

4. Increased spotted when firing from smoke?  You're wrong here.  It's not DDs that were hurt.  It's  BBs that were hit hardest, followed by cruisers.  Get your facts straight!

5. Fixing "broken" AP by reducing DD armor?  The idea was to increase the number of overpens by BB AP, but apparently it had some undesired side effect.  Honestly, IMO, this was a really stupid idea.  They should not have had to spend a minute of development time to figure out these undesired effects.  Regardless, they ARE trying to deal with the BB AP issue.  This is proof of idea, even if the idea was a fail.  Be PATIENT!!!

 

God, this whining is embarrassing. :Smile_facepalm:

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55 minutes ago, nhf said:

WOW has known about the "broken" BB AP damage which has screwed DDs for over a year.  Won't fix it.  (Today, I took at 95% single volley through stern AND a 60% single volley broadside.  There is no right move to make.)

WOW added MASSIVE radar to the game to screw DDs.  (I was lit up 7 times in a T8 game last week and my whole game was running around and/or away.  Reminded me why stopped playing stealth/cap/trop DDs T8 and up.)

WOW removed stealth fire to screw DDs.

WOW increased spotting when firing from smoke to screw DDs.

WOW's proposed the "fix" to the aforementioned "broken" AP is to reduce DD armor thereby allowing ALL OTHER SHIPS to cause more even damage to DDs to screw DDs even more than WOW already has.

If BBs had a single nerf even remotely close it would be anarchy.  If WOW proposed, for example, to reduce the fire chance on a BB, something BBs whine incessantly about, by increasing the AP damage to a BB there would be anarchy.  But, screw DDs over and over and over and over and over again and that's just peachy.

/rant

In before the lock. 

The answer is yes, yes they do.  It was in the very very very fine print of the contract you signed when you dared to enter the game.  You also gave them rights to your car, house, lawn care services, your collection of fluffy rabbit keys and your immortal soul.

They just haven't show up to collect those other items yet. :cap_win: 

What?  You didn't read the fine print?    

 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel

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20 minutes ago, Crucis said:

For your own safety, please take off the tin foil hat and step back from the keyboard.  

 

 

1. "Broken" BB AP: They're trying to fix it.  Be patient, for crying out loud.

2. Radar:  For crying out loud.  They add a USN CL line, and radar is supposed to be one thing that USN cruisers mount.  People play the ships in a new line pretty heavily after the release, so what the heck do you expect to happen?  JEEEZ.

3. Removal of stealth fire.  And a damned good thing this removal was.

4. Increased spotted when firing from smoke?  You're wrong here.  It's not DDs that were hurt.  It's  BBs that were hit hardest, followed by cruisers.  Get your facts straight!

5. Fixing "broken" AP by reducing DD armor?  The idea was to increase the number of overpens by BB AP, but apparently it had some undesired side effect.  Honestly, IMO, this was a really stupid idea.  They should not have had to spend a minute of development time to figure out these undesired effects.  Regardless, they ARE trying to deal with the BB AP issue.  This is proof of idea, even if the idea was a fail.  Be PATIENT!!!

 

God, this whining is embarrassing. :Smile_facepalm:

I totally agree with your last statement however, I think he needs more tin foil to protect his head now once he realizes how far off he was with this rant.

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You know, I just realized that those frowny thumbs down thingees actually improve my Community Contributor score!!!

Who knew?  :Smile_great:

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19 hours ago, Crucis said:

For your own safety, please take off the tin foil hat and step back from the keyboard.  

 

 

1. "Broken" BB AP: They're trying to fix it.  Be patient, for crying out loud.

2. Radar:  For crying out loud.  They add a USN CL line, and radar is supposed to be one thing that USN cruisers mount.  People play the ships in a new line pretty heavily after the release, so what the heck do you expect to happen?  JEEEZ.

3. Removal of stealth fire.  And a damned good thing this removal was.

4. Increased spotted when firing from smoke?  You're wrong here.  It's not DDs that were hurt.  It's  BBs that were hit hardest, followed by cruisers.  Get your facts straight!

5. Fixing "broken" AP by reducing DD armor?  The idea was to increase the number of overpens by BB AP, but apparently it had some undesired side effect.  Honestly, IMO, this was a really stupid idea.  They should not have had to spend a minute of development time to figure out these undesired effects.  Regardless, they ARE trying to deal with the BB AP issue.  This is proof of idea, even if the idea was a fail.  Be PATIENT!!!

 

God, this whining is embarrassing. :Smile_facepalm:

This also impacts DD spotting damage, as there's no longer a point to smoking them up and being their "eyes".

As for being patient...sure. It's just DD players, after all. We sure were in a hurry to add those radar cruisers, nerf the IJNs, nerf smoke, etc. Tends to make one cynical about intent.

When someone advocates for something you approve of, it's a "logical argument". If you don't approve, it's "whining".

FTFY.

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20 hours ago, Kombat_W0MBAT said:

Yeah, that can be a bit annoying... although the "double dipping" is more troublesome IMO. 

Radar saturation can be a problem, particularly with new line releases like the USN CA/CL split. 1-3 radars per team is perfectly manageable. 

There were only a couple DDs that actively abused OWSF. Gremyashchy and Blyskawica. It was a larger nerf to cruisers.

That actually screws over big ships, not DDs. Battleships and cruisers can no longer spam away with impunity from smoke. DDs still can for the most part. 

I know this hit the Zao really hard. What was the other? I don't remember...

Also, they did take the opportunity to change it for all ships thought to your point, yes, those two ships were the most heavily impacted. Was it really necessary to make every ship's gun bloom go out to max range, and stay for 20 seconds? The impact of that decision is not uniform across all classes.

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1 hour ago, Thornir said:

I know this hit the Zao really hard. What was the other? I don't remember...

Also, they did take the opportunity to change it for all ships thought to your point, yes, those two ships were the most heavily impacted. Was it really necessary to make every ship's gun bloom go out to max range, and stay for 20 seconds? The impact of that decision is not uniform across all classes.

 

Chapayev and all high tier IJN cruisers. Almost all DDs had the ability to OWSF, but it was only situationally useful. Besides Gremy and Blys, it was only cruisers that ACTIVELY used OWSF as a means of dealing damage. 

The statement from WG was that OWSF was not a mechanic they thought belonged in the game, regardless the ship type using it. 

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT

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2 hours ago, Thornir said:

This also impacts DD spotting damage, as there's no longer a point to smoking them up and being their "eyes".

As for being patient...sure. It's just DD players, after all. We sure were in a hurry to add those radar cruisers, nerf the IJNs, nerf smoke, etc. Tends to make one cynical about intent.

When someone advocates for something you approve of, it's a "logical argument". If you don't approve, it's "whining".

FTFY.

You should know that I'm primarily a DD player.  And yet I don't see any of these things as serious problems.  I manage to do just fine in my DDs, even with all these radar ships.  I manage to do just fine when it comes to occasionally smoke shooting. 

IJN torp boat DDs?  Yes, they got hit hard.  I have no argument there.  I've agreed with this one for a long time.  And even moderately recently, I've made some observations and suggestions about how to improve the IJN DD line.  First, an observation.  Isn't it odd that the nation whose DDs are most heavily torpedo focused seem to also be so difficult to do well with those torpedoes?  It seems to me that IJN torp boat DDs should have a major rework along these lines.

Make IJN torp boats into DDs that rely more on good rate of fire and lowish torp detectability, but with only moderately strong damage, instead of bad RoF and highly damaging torpedoes.  On the flip side, USN DD torpedoes should have their torps reload more slowly but be more damaging and perhaps a little easier to detect.  The thing with USN DDs is that they are good gunboats and can afford to have torps that are a bit more all or nothing, whereas the IJN torp boat DDs aren't such good gunboats and should have more reliable, quicker loading torps though at the expense of not being quite as damaging as they currently are.

If this is too complex (or whatever) a solution, just make the IJN torpedoes generate more moderate (middle of the road) damage, be quicker loading and have very good detectability.  And leave it at that.

I think that the loudest complainers are the weakest players of the ship type who are simply unwilling to adapt to the changing environment.

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2 hours ago, Thornir said:

I know this hit the Zao really hard. What was the other? I don't remember...

Also, they did take the opportunity to change it for all ships thought to your point, yes, those two ships were the most heavily impacted. Was it really necessary to make every ship's gun bloom go out to max range, and stay for 20 seconds? The impact of that decision is not uniform across all classes.

Frankly, yes, I do think that it was necessary to do this.  The idea was to remove OWSF from the game … entirely!  The game is much better off for this decision.

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Frankly, yes, I do think that it was necessary to do this.  The idea was to remove OWSF from the game … entirely!  The game is much better off for this decision.

...a matter of perspective. 

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27 minutes ago, Thornir said:

...a matter of perspective. 

People whine and complain about stuff that has the ability of shooting at you without being able to shoot at them, whether it's OWSF ships or carriers, or artillery in WoT.  Getting rid of OWSF gets rid of at least one source of these complaints.  And that's good enough for me.

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3 hours ago, Crucis said:

People whine and complain about stuff that has the ability of shooting at you without being able to shoot at them, whether it's OWSF ships or carriers, or artillery in WoT.  Getting rid of OWSF gets rid of at least one source of these complaints.  And that's good enough for me.

These things can do this because it's how the game is intended. That people complain is natural. People will always complain when something works against their self interest. When that self interest is knowingly pursued at the expense of others, it's called "selfishness". Is that good enough for you, too?

Edited by Thornir

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4 hours ago, Crucis said:

You should know that I'm primarily a DD player.  And yet I don't see any of these things as serious problems.  I manage to do just fine in my DDs, even with all these radar ships.  I manage to do just fine when it comes to occasionally smoke shooting. 

IJN torp boat DDs?  Yes, they got hit hard.  I have no argument there.  I've agreed with this one for a long time.  And even moderately recently, I've made some observations and suggestions about how to improve the IJN DD line.  First, an observation.  Isn't it odd that the nation whose DDs are most heavily torpedo focused seem to also be so difficult to do well with those torpedoes?  It seems to me that IJN torp boat DDs should have a major rework along these lines.

Make IJN torp boats into DDs that rely more on good rate of fire and lowish torp detectability, but with only moderately strong damage, instead of bad RoF and highly damaging torpedoes.  On the flip side, USN DD torpedoes should have their torps reload more slowly but be more damaging and perhaps a little easier to detect.  The thing with USN DDs is that they are good gunboats and can afford to have torps that are a bit more all or nothing, whereas the IJN torp boat DDs aren't such good gunboats and should have more reliable, quicker loading torps though at the expense of not being quite as damaging as they currently are.

If this is too complex (or whatever) a solution, just make the IJN torpedoes generate more moderate (middle of the road) damage, be quicker loading and have very good detectability.  And leave it at that.

I think that the loudest complainers are the weakest players of the ship type who are simply unwilling to adapt to the changing environment.

There are a lot of possible solutions, nothing wrong with yours.

The easiest solution? Don't let radar go through rock, and don't let its information be shared.

I may be the loudest complainer. Not the weakest player, either. Looking for balance. Not supremacy, don't want to rule the world. Just balance.

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20 hours ago, Thornir said:

There are a lot of possible solutions, nothing wrong with yours.

The easiest solution? Don't let radar go through rock, and don't let its information be shared.

I may be the loudest complainer. Not the weakest player, either. Looking for balance. Not supremacy, don't want to rule the world. Just balance.

Heck, I've said for a while that I think that the ships spotted by radar should only be seen by the ship mounting that radar.  It seems to me that this would have a tremendous balancing effect, because suddenly it would be a lot less important whether there was an imbalance in the numbers of radars per team when radar could only "spot" for the ship mounting it.

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On 8/3/2018 at 3:34 PM, nhf said:

WOW has known about the "broken" BB AP damage which has screwed DDs for over a year.  Won't fix it.  (Today, I took at 95% single volley through the stern AND a 60% single volley broadside.  There is no right move to make.)

WOW added MASSIVE radar to the game screwing DDs.  (I was lit up 7 times in a T8 game last week and my whole game was running around and/or away.  Reminded me why I stopped playing stealth/cap/torp DDs T8 and up.)

WOW removed stealth fire screwing DDs.

WOW increased spotting when firing from smoke screwing DDs.

WOW's proposed the "fix" to the aforementioned "broken" AP is to reduce DD armor thereby allowing ALL OTHER SHIPS to cause more even damage to DDs screwing DDs even more then WOW already has.

If BBs had a single nerf even remotely close it would be anarchy.  If WOW proposed, for example, to reduce the fire chance on a BB, something BBs whine incessantly about, by increasing the AP damage to a BB there would be anarchy.  But, screw DDs over and over and over and over and over again and that's just peachy.

/rant

The DD's in this game are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over modeled in this game to begin with. If you took 60% damage from a broad side you got what you deserved. In the real world you should have blown up, or been crippled . Most of the time even with out a smoke screen you guys are invisible to most ships......If you don't think your getting a fair shake.......take another class of ships. Historically your DD were use for Sub Warfare....and not taking on BB's .....because you were Tin Cans and were real easy to sink.......but not in this game. Think about it a 14 in HE round hit a DD, it should be blown in half  so quit your whinning your already over modeled in this game to begin with.

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On ‎2018‎-‎08‎-‎04 at 12:36 PM, Crucis said:

You should know that I'm primarily a DD player.  And yet I don't see any of these things as serious problems.  I manage to do just fine in my DDs, even with all these radar ships.  I manage to do just fine when it comes to occasionally smoke shooting. 

IJN torp boat DDs?  Yes, they got hit hard.  I have no argument there.  I've agreed with this one for a long time.  And even moderately recently, I've made some observations and suggestions about how to improve the IJN DD line.  First, an observation.  Isn't it odd that the nation whose DDs are most heavily torpedo focused seem to also be so difficult to do well with those torpedoes?  It seems to me that IJN torp boat DDs should have a major rework along these lines.

Make IJN torp boats into DDs that rely more on good rate of fire and lowish torp detectability, but with only moderately strong damage, instead of bad RoF and highly damaging torpedoes.  On the flip side, USN DD torpedoes should have their torps reload more slowly but be more damaging and perhaps a little easier to detect.  The thing with USN DDs is that they are good gunboats and can afford to have torps that are a bit more all or nothing, whereas the IJN torp boat DDs aren't such good gunboats and should have more reliable, quicker loading torps though at the expense of not being quite as damaging as they currently are.

If this is too complex (or whatever) a solution, just make the IJN torpedoes generate more moderate (middle of the road) damage, be quicker loading and have very good detectability.  And leave it at that.

I think that the loudest complainers are the weakest players of the ship type who are simply unwilling to adapt to the changing environment.

Something to make IJN destroyers actually fun to play would be nice.  Waiting a minute and a half to reload your torpedoes which mostly miss and generally only hit when someone screws up would be acceptable (because that becomes your secondary weapon) except IJN DDs are complete dogs in a gunfight so they don't have the option of effectively fighting between torpedo volleys.  Their primary weapon's effectiveness is more dependent on the other guy's skill, or just as often sheer dumb luck.

Heaven forbid you end up on the wrong side of the map where the enemy ships are moving away from you and taking the battle with them; effectively your entire weapon loadout is now worthless and you're doing nothing all game.

This only gets worse at higher tiers because ships are faster (both in absolute terms and relative to DDs), torpedoes reload much slower and until you hit the Shima you don't actually really get particularly more to fling.

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13 hours ago, MAJ_DUNDEE said:

The DD's in this game are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over modeled in this game to begin with. If you took 60% damage from a broad side you got what you deserved. In the real world you should have blown up, or been crippled . Most of the time even with out a smoke screen you guys are invisible to most ships......If you don't think your getting a fair shake.......take another class of ships. Historically your DD were use for Sub Warfare....and not taking on BB's .....because you were Tin Cans and were real easy to sink.......but not in this game. Think about it a 14 in HE round hit a DD, it should be blown in half  so quit your whinning your already over modeled in this game to begin with.

Fair enough, but if we're on this topic of historical accuracy, what about your gun accuracy? It should be much lower in game since it was in real life. Also radar should not be able to go through islands. There should be both more DDs and more Planes in games since that is what WW2 era navies used. In fact if this were the case we would have games with two CVs and 6+ DDs per team as the norm. Destroyers in the real world made up for their tin can nature with the fact that I can build a lot more DDs than BBs for less and those DDs working together are far more effective. The game is not supposed to be historically accurate. It takes stuff from history and twists it to the game's needs. A DD in this game effectively plays the role of DDs and Subs with spotting/skirmishing and torping, while the extra durability (laughs at describing DDs as durable) allows a single DD to make up for the lack of other DDs since the strong suit was really just mass production. And yes your 14 in HE round does blow my ship HP in half provided that you take the trouble to switch from AP and manage to hit me which you normally do not.

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On 8/3/2018 at 1:34 PM, nhf said:

WOW has known about the "broken" BB AP damage which has screwed DDs for over a year.  Won't fix it.  (Today, I took at 95% single volley through the stern AND a 60% single volley broadside.  There is no right move to make.)

WOW added MASSIVE radar to the game screwing DDs.  (I was lit up 7 times in a T8 game last week and my whole game was running around and/or away.  Reminded me why I stopped playing stealth/cap/torp DDs T8 and up.)

WOW removed stealth fire screwing DDs.

WOW increased spotting when firing from smoke screwing DDs.

WOW's proposed the "fix" to the aforementioned "broken" AP is to reduce DD armor thereby allowing ALL OTHER SHIPS to cause more even damage to DDs screwing DDs even more then WOW already has.

If BBs had a single nerf even remotely close it would be anarchy.  If WOW proposed, for example, to reduce the fire chance on a BB, something BBs whine incessantly about, by increasing the AP damage to a BB there would be anarchy.  But, screw DDs over and over and over and over and over again and that's just peachy.

/rant

You may not know this because it’s ancient history but there was a fire reducing nerf specifically for BBS.. I call the BIG CRUISER NERF by removing the Captain skill AFT for all Cruisers guns bigger than 139 mm which gave you a 20% range increase to your main guns plus a redo of your Modules,it upset a lot of Cruiser players like me .. I nearly quit..and many stopped playing certain Cruisers,Wows does not do that kinda big stuff anymore

all game adjustments by Wows are done because there Data shows an imbalance, every shot every turn every hit is recorded on every player, that is why after patches you will see sometimes on certain ships see things like armor thickness changes or tweaking this or that

With game mechanics occasionally they do a biggy like becoming visable when firing your guns for a certain period or smoke changes

Radar in my humble opinion was added to address a host of issues and it has changed how I play my Yueyang DD  and in time we may see some changes to Radar or a counter to it, but there is a gameplay that works for DDs it’s just a lot less aggressive at the beginning of the game, knowing radar ranges and giving yourself an escape route if lit up, Adapt- Improvise- Overcome... be flexible in your gameplay or die

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