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CaptainStevieX

Speculation on future Pan-American ships video

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So, with the Nueve de Julio at least, I was curious as to what else the Pan-American branch could hold. It turns out, quite a lot, as I've documented here, and later when I talk about a Pan-American destroyer line. Hope you enjoy it and let me know what you think!

 

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it's actually funny to hear portuguese and spanish words with english accent.

i think i was debating with one guy here about minas gerais,in my opinion,she might fit at tier5 with some artificial changes and her refit.

rio de janeiro is a tough one,the teaboos wouldn't like for the agincourt to become the rio de janeiro,they will give you a lot of reasons like "she went to ww1 as a british ship" but ignore the part where they stole from the ottomans and built it for us in the first place,i have no patience anymore to argue about pixel ships and their owners.if she comes to us,good, 7x1 to us,if not,we are used to bad news here anyway.

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I can imagine it was hilarious to hear your language being butchered like that lol. I can see the reasoning that the Minas Gerais could work at Tier 5, since there are ships like the Konig and Bretagne that are fairly similar to it. depends on other factors going in the ship's favor. And it's very true that I likely see Rio de Janerio as the Agincourt, but I think it would be pretty cool to see such a unique ship in this line. gives it something unique to the player not seen in a typical nation tree. Either way, should be interesting, but I'm holding out hope that Rio de Janerio will be in game as a Pan-American.

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my question... is Why? 

if there are just simply...former US ships, that basically already in the game, that were just renamed?  

why the redundancy ? 

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1 minute ago, Shinnidan said:

my question... is Why? 

if there are just simply...former US ships, that basically already in the game, that were just renamed?  

why the redundancy ? 

Looking at the Nueve de Julio, the main differences would be minor performance differences with a similar overall play style. Sort of similar to Pan-Asian DDS come to think of it. But from a business perspective, it also makes a lot of sense. WoWS definitely has a notable player base in Latin American countries, so this is a great way to appeal to them, either with designs unique to their countries (Minas Geraes, Almirante Brown, La Argentina, etc.), or those from other countries either already featured (all of the ex U.S. and British ships), or from those that could possibly appear in other trees from their home countries (Sweden, Netherlands, etc.). I see it as business oriented, and trying to give a shoutout to lesser known navies to appeal to those markets. A good idea if you ask me, even if some of the designs may well be familiar ones with some differences between them.

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7 minutes ago, CaptainStevieX said:

Looking at the Nueve de Julio, the main differences would be minor performance differences with a similar overall play style. Sort of similar to Pan-Asian DDS come to think of it. But from a business perspective, it also makes a lot of sense. WoWS definitely has a notable player base in Latin American countries, so this is a great way to appeal to them, either with designs unique to their countries (Minas Geraes, Almirante Brown, La Argentina, etc.), or those from other countries either already featured (all of the ex U.S. and British ships), or from those that could possibly appear in other trees from their home countries (Sweden, Netherlands, etc.). I see it as business oriented, and trying to give a shoutout to lesser known navies to appeal to those markets. A good idea if you ask me, even if some of the designs may well be familiar ones with some differences between them.

i agree that they have a market here in south american,can't speak for the other countries,but here in brazil,wargaming items are "expensive" since our govmin loves to flood foreign products with taxes,thankfully they "lowered" the prices here a little i think.

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3 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

i agree that they have a market here in south american,can't speak for the other countries,but here in brazil,wargaming items are "expensive" since our govmin loves to flood foreign products with taxes,thankfully they "lowered" the prices here a little i think.

indeed, and given the fact that I often see players in the ARA clan at least once or twice every night when I play, Argentina definitely has an active player base. Chile, Peru and other countries, not too sure. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a decent sized player base in Mexico, but can't confirm or deny for sure. 

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Just now, CaptainStevieX said:

indeed, and given the fact that I often see players in the ARA clan at least once or twice every night when I play, Argentina definitely has an active player base. Chile, Peru and other countries, not too sure. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a decent sized player base in Mexico, but can't confirm or deny for sure. 

mexico is "north america" to us,i don't even think they like to get lumped together with us "southerners".ironic since they are very similar to us.

i'm sure argentina have a active player base here since they have a naval tradition like us too.

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7 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

mexico is "north america" to us,i don't even think they like to get lumped together with us "southerners".ironic since they are very similar to us.

i'm sure argentina have a active player base here since they have a naval tradition like us too.

Yeah, technically Mexico is North America to us, though historically they're more linked to South America of course lol. Given that having a naval tradition is obviously important to having a player base in a game like this, having a good number of Chilean and Peruvian players wouldn't surprise me, though I don't have any data on me for that off hand lol.

Edited by CaptainStevieX

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This is a time to put in a shameless plug for the Swedish cruiser's sister ship Chile. (More details are in my sig below.) lol

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28 minutes ago, Merlox said:

This is a time to put in a shameless plug for the Swedish cruiser's sister ship Chile. (More details are in my sig below.) lol

lol makes sense to me. be a cool ship to have in game in any form. (Pan-European, a proper Swedish tree or the Chilean one)

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1 hour ago, Cruxdei said:

mexico is "north america" to us,i don't even think they like to get lumped together with us "southerners".ironic since they are very similar to us.

i'm sure argentina have a active player base here since they have a naval tradition like us too.

I worked for a large company and in Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, Chile, Argentina and Brazil. Collectively known as Latam. Latinoamerica; that's the official term actually. Not sure why they went with Pan America.   

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Nice vid @CaptainStevieX +1 for you!

Also, I want to show you this, to help you in your work:

 

 

 

 

My fellow friends @COLDOWN and @Talleyrand did a great work and I want to share with you they excelent info, take a look OP!

And, a few more things:

Spoiler

gm6kO6s.png

The Rivadavia-class is not just a "US build ship", is a US+British+German frankestein battleship, and with that turtle armor, she could end not in Tier IV, but Tier V, even more if she can get into the game with her proposed rebuild in germany to carry 12 x 356mm main guns and becoming something like the Bayern in game at some point (in term of rebuild).

This Argentine Nikolai I:

Spoiler

7AsdI2A.jpg

People want uniqueness? I have uniqueness for they!! Just look at that proposed battleship from Ansaldo for Argentina, called Project Ansaldo 1908, a battleship with 15 mains guns of 305mm. She could be put in Tier IV with out problems (maybe)

And finally, this one:

Spoiler

v61RpWS.png

Design 1124A, a cruiser designed be Vickers for Argentina, she could end in the Tier IX or X.

 

Hope this help you in future vids about ships for the new PanAmerican line.

 

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On 8/2/2018 at 6:45 PM, Shinnidan said:

my question... is Why? 

if there are just simply...former US ships, that basically already in the game, that were just renamed?  

why the redundancy ? 

 

There are way more unique ships than clones, and even most of the clones have been refitted with weapons systems that dramatically change how they play.

Do not judge the line on the Nueve de Julio/Boise abomination. That is WG taking the easy way out, and I still haven't forgiven them for it, since it makes everyone believe a Pan-Am line would be another copy-paste junk line.

 

If you stick with steel ships, the DD line can go from 2-10 with ONE semi-clone, at T9 (Which could be either Daring, Gearing, or Somners class, with only one torp launcher and massively improved AA.)

T2: Alexandrino Dealenca, Brazil. It's a heavily refitted WWI K-class British boat, doubtful WG would include the base K class in the RN line.

T3: Catamarca, Argentina. Custom designed, built in Germany, with 4 USN 102mm guns and 4 533mm torpedo tubes and speeds up to 37 knots (depending on which sister they use)

T3 Premium : Almirante Lynch, Chile. 34 knots, bristling with 6 RN 102mm guns and torpedo tubes and a boatload of hitpoints.      Originally built for Chile, some of the class served in the RN after being refit with a different gun suite.

T4: Serrano, Chile  3x1 120mm RN style guns, 2x3 533mm torps

T5: Antioquia, Colombia. 4x1 120mm RN style guns, 2x4 533mm torp tubes, 36 knots and decent AA.

T6 Premium: Mendoza, Argentina. A semi-clone. It's the T5 Jianwei, with Gallant guns, regular torps, and 40 knots of speed.

T6: Greenhalgh, Brazil. A highly modified,Brazilian built,  Mahan, 4x1 127mm 1x4 533mm torpedo tubes, and the beginning of the Pan-Am flavor of epic AA

T7: Acre, Brazil. American father, British mother, conceived and built in Brazil, it's got American weapons on an essentially British hull. 4x1 127mm/38s, either 2x3 or 2x4 torpedo tubes, AA takes a slight hit but only compared to USN or other Pan-Am DD's.

T7(or 8) Premium: Almirante Riveros, Chile. 4 102mm guns, autoloading at 50RPM, face melting AA, and 4 torpedo tubes.

T8: Nueva Esparta, Venezuela. Custom built in Britain, it's half Daring, and half Battle, with a Texas style AA suite. 8 twin Bofors mounts, half of them are the T9 STAAG guns. 3x2 114mm RN guns with 360 rotation, it pays for the AA with a miserable torpedo armament of 1x3 533mm tubes.

T9: You've got many choices here. In steel, slightly nerfed Darings, Gearings, or Somner class DD's with 1x5 torpedo tubes and even better AA than their stock examples. In paper, proposals for Brazil and several other countries, mainly based around a 3x2 114mm RN gun armament and 1x5 torpedo tubes.

T10: 20 de Julio, Colombia: 3x2 120mm Bofors guns firing up to 42 rounds a minute (I'd nerf to 30 for balance) and 4 torpedo tubes. Get close and Chuck Norris them in the face until someone dies.

@CaptainStevieX

You missed a very good T2 cruiser, Chile's Ministro Zenteno. It's basically an Albany B hull, drop the secondaries for 2 more main battery guns. Also worth mentioning that the USN's New Orleans class was originally built for Brazil.

300px-USS_New_Orleans_(CA-32)_underway_i

No, not THAT one.

This one:

300px-USS_New_Orleans_(1898-1929).jpg

 

Early New Orleans and Albany were basically sister-ships to Ministro Zenteno, which made sense, they were build in the same yards in England and sold to opposite sides of the simmering conflict between Brazil and Chile, before the US and UK helped mediate.

O'Higgins would be a real struggle to balance. The design only allows for a 3 gun broadside, ROF for the Pattern "T" gun is about 2 rounds a minute, and the shell traveled 744 m/s...

 

 

Matt

 

 

 

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Hello @CaptainStevieX

As a latinamerican I'm extremly happy that you are introducing the posssible panamerican ships to the wide english speaking community. While there are a lot of ships and designs, they are now well known for the public. 

I had done a lot or research in the past few years. So, If you don't mind I would like to suggest a few "never build" designs that may be part of an hipothetical Panam tree. Also I would suggest a possible tree.

 

Cruisers:   

Vickers design for Venezuela

In the 50' Venezuela begun an ambitious naval programme. They  made the clemente escort , the Nueva Esparta destroyers and they would have also included a modern light cruiser.

lGLm2oy.png
 

Desplazamiento: 8000 (normal)
Velocidad:

Armamento:
9 cañones de 152mm /mk 24 (3x3)
9 cañones duales de 102mm mk N
4 bofors de 40mm /70
8 Lanzadores de torpedos (2x4)

Blindaje:
Cinturón: 76 mm
cubierta: 25 mm
mamparos transversales: 37 mm

Lightweight, poorly armored, but wit immpressive firepower. May be tier 8? Venezuela was pushing to get 3  mk26 turrets that we now see on the minotaur. There will be less guns but with better rate of fire. In the end it willl improve slightly the damage per minute.

A coup d' etat end the venezuela naval program

 

Vickers 1024A 

Late 40' design for Argentina. Roughly similar to "Neptune". Another lightweight with impressive rate of fire. An important thing to notice is the good secondarie with the amazing Bofors 120mm. 
Tier 9 probably

v61RpWS.png

 

Características

Desplazamiento: 15.500 (estimate)
Velocidad: 32¿?

Armamento:
12 cañones de 152mm /mk 24 ()
12 cañones duales de 114mm mk 5 (6x2)
8 bofors de 40mm /70

Blindaje:
Cinturón: 81 mm + 12mm
cubierta: 50 mm
mamparos transversales: 50 mm

Uk and Argentina never agreed in the payment method and USA offered the Brooklins to all the southamerican power to avoid anothe naval race. So that seal the fate of  this ship 


 

So an hipotetical cruiser line 

t1: DURANGO or HUMAITA or ANSALDO
t2: ZENTENO or MONTEVIDEO
t3: BAHIA or O'HIGGINS (speed or armour your choice)
t4: some of the early 20's design
t5:  ALMIRANTE BROWN (25demayo) as you suggested. only six guns, but those are rails guns :)
t6: LA ARGENTINA as you suggested
t7: the trekronnor, the sevenprovincien or thenewfoundland. (I have to go to secondhand in these tier sadly)
t8: VICKERS VENEZUELA 
t9: VICKERS 1124A
 
 

This line is pretty cohesive, most of them are lightweith ships armed with 6' guns with high rate of fire. I'm missing the tier 10 yet

 





 BATTLESHIPs:   
 

I can't think in a complete battleship line. But if we check designs there are a lot to work on. And they are very unique, and in some cases they are some very strange ideas (I'm looking to you Argentina)

As @BrunoSchezer there is that strange Ansaldo design. with that strange design. With so many guns I think it would lack armor. But i don't have the data yet. 
7AsdI2A.jpg

You already know Minas Gerais, Rivadavia and Latorre. But there is a small mistake in you apretiation of the Rivadavia. The think is not so akin to the american battleships. It have actually a lot of german english and italian features. Thats because of the scam the argentine goverment made to get those blueprints. 

The Rivadavia has a 75mm turtleback behind the armored belt. These will make a very tought ship to citadel. Like the germans. Anyway I agree with you that tier 4 is a good place to her. 
gm6kO6s.png

 

Riachuelo:

Brazil opted for a design similar to the Queen Elizabeth. but more heavily armored (343mm armored belt) but with less torpedo protection. An obvious tier 6

Rm2e54D.png

Yet there a few designs that could made a good tier 7 or even 8.

7AtlRXU.pngArmstron 687. Those are 16' guns. 

So this half branch could go 

t3:Minas Geais
t4: RIVADAVIA or ANSALDO 15 guns
t5: Latorre
t6: RIACHUELO
t7: Some of the 15', designs
t8: Armstrong 687

 


 

Regarding the DDs and Cvs design i will add later because the wife is demanding i take her out . but let me congratulate you one more time abouth the video. 
Keep up the good work!

 

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@Talleyrand @mobryan @BrunoSchezer Very interesting stuff! Thank you so much for that insight on the topic! I also have to say that I recall seeing Talleyrand posting a Pan-American DD proposal that I'd base a lot of my own findings on the topic off of (obviously crediting you for the initial inspiration, of course) but the cruisers and battleships you found are also really cool, and it sucks that I missed them initially. All told, I think I might need to make a follow-up video on the topic in the near future!  Already getting to work on the DD video, but definitely going to follow up this one with these findings! Many thanks. Only makes me happier to see this new nation branch in the game, since there's so much that can be done with it.

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57 minutes ago, CaptainStevieX said:

I think I might need to make a follow-up video on the topic in the near future! 

"Panamerican tree 3: the weird stuff"

 

1 hour ago, CaptainStevieX said:

also have to say that I recall seeing Talleyrand posting a Pan-American DD proposal that I'd base a lot of my own findings on the topic

Thank you so much. i got to said I should modified the original line. I agree now with @mofton line more

Mi DD line would be: 
t2: Maranhao
t3: La Plata
t4: Linch or Serrano
t5: Antioquia / Cervantez
t6: Amazonas (the  bastard son of a brazilian night of pation between the Galland and the Sims)  or Buenos Aires or Jarua
t7: Greenhalgh
t8: Nueva Esparta or Williams
t9: Thornicroft for Brasil or may be the mexican Fletcher
t10: 20 de julio or Peru Daring or some of the Sommers or Gearings

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Look forward to the DD vid.  Thanks for sharing.

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10 minutes ago, Talleyrand said:

"Panamerican tree 3: the weird stuff"

 

Thank you so much. i got to said I should modified the original line. I agree now with @mofton line more

Mi DD line would be: 
t2: Maranhao
t3: La Plata
t4: Linch or Serrano
t5: Antioquia / Cervantez
t6: Amazonas (the  bastard son of a brazilian night of pation between the Galland and the Sims)  or Buenos Aires or Jarua
t7: Greenhalgh
t8: Nueva Esparta or Williams
t9: Thornicroft for Brasil or may be the mexican Fletcher
t10: 20 de julio or Peru Daring or some of the Sommers or Gearings

Just a note for those following along at home

T2 Maranhoa is the renamed Dealenca, nee HMS Porpoise, which despite the name, is a K class boat...

T3 La Plata is a sister ship to Catamarca, Argentina had several yards building near identical DD's for their program.

T6 Amazonas is a sister ship to Acre

I think Amazonas/Acre and Greenhalgh can be argued for either T6 or T7, the A's have more HP, the Greenhalgh has more torpedoes.

South American naming conventions sometimes make it hard to keep track of which boat is being referred to, a great many boats carried 2 or more names, which were often recycled, List of Honor style.

Peru has had 5 separate ships named Almirante Grau. The first was commissioned in 1907, the second is the former HMS Newfoundland, which was renamed to the Capitan Quinones when a new Almirante Grau (De Zeven Provinecein) was purchased from the Netherlands, along with her sistership the Aguirre (De Ruyter) The third Grau is also the fifth Grau, as the name was reassigned to the other cruiser (formerly known as Aguirre)  while the third/fifth Grau was being fully modernised for 3 years in the Netherlands. There is now a sixth Grau, in the form of a fully modern frigate.

Confused yet???

latest.png

 

 

Matt

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1 minute ago, mobryan said:

Peru has had 5 separate ships named Almirante Grau. The first was commissioned in 1907, the second is the former HMS Newfoundland, which was renamed to the Capitan Quinones when a new Almirante Grau (De Zeven Provinecein) was purchased from the Netherlands, along with her sistership the Aguirre (De Ruyter) The third Grau is also the fifth Grau, as the name was reassigned to the other cruiser (formerly known as Aguirre)  while the third/fifth Grau was being fully modernised for 3 years in the Netherlands. There is now a sixth Grau, in the form of a fully modern frigate.

Peru was going for the entire cruiser branch of ships named "Grau". :cap_haloween:

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1 hour ago, Talleyrand said:

"Panamerican tree 3: the weird stuff"

 

Thank you so much. i got to said I should modified the original line. I agree now with @mofton line more

Mi DD line would be: 
t2: Maranhao
t3: La Plata
t4: Linch or Serrano
t5: Antioquia / Cervantez
t6: Amazonas (the  bastard son of a brazilian night of pation between the Galland and the Sims)  or Buenos Aires or Jarua
t7: Greenhalgh
t8: Nueva Esparta or Williams
t9: Thornicroft for Brasil or may be the mexican Fletcher
t10: 20 de julio or Peru Daring or some of the Sommers or Gearings

I am glad to see someone else mention the Daring class that Peru had. My mother is from Peru, so I have been most interested in seeing which ships are used for the Pan-Am lines. I'm crossing my fingers for a heal gimmick for the DD or CL/CA lines. Since the first cruiser was given a heal (thankfully not radar), maybe this could be the specialty. I know the top tier Soviet DD's already have heals as their thing, but they aren't traditional destroyers. Just for goodness sake don't give them any radar or hydro.

Just imagine a tier 9 Fletcher class (from almost any of the countries) with a heal. Take away the long duration USN smoke and the defensive fire in exchange for the heal. Maybe even give it a little bit slower 10.5km torps for further balancing. Would be like a non premium Kidd at tier 9.

Then imagine a Daring class from Peru without the hydro and single launch torps, in exchange for the heal.

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27 minutes ago, WinterSoIdier said:

I am glad to see someone else mention the Daring class that Peru had. My mother is from Peru, so I have been most interested in seeing which ships are used for the Pan-Am lines. I'm crossing my fingers for a heal gimmick for the DD or CL/CA lines. Since the first cruiser was given a heal (thankfully not radar), maybe this could be the specialty. I know the top tier Soviet DD's already have heals as their thing, but they aren't traditional destroyers. Just for goodness sake don't give them any radar or hydro.

Just imagine a tier 9 Fletcher class (from almost any of the countries) with a heal. Take away the long duration USN smoke and the defensive fire in exchange for the heal. Maybe even give it a little bit slower 10.5km torps for further balancing. Would be like a non premium Kidd at tier 9.

Then imagine a Daring class from Peru without the hydro and single launch torps, in exchange for the heal.

Those are very intresting possibilitys. As most of the PanAm fleets use small calibers with hight rate of fire @mofton was suggesting the new rate of fire booster as consumable. It could work also.

If I recall correctly Peru had these possible ships
Cruiser:
A seven provincien class (tier 7 ?)
A ceylon subclass of the Crowncolony cruisers (tier 6?)
A variation of the early XX's scout cruiser (tier 2?)

Destroyers:
The forementioned Daring (tier 10)
A russian Izyaslav class (tier 4)
A russian Orfey class (tier 3 o 4)

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7 minutes ago, Talleyrand said:

Those are very intresting possibilitys. As most of the PanAm fleets use small calibers with hight rate of fire @mofton was suggesting the new rate of fire booster as consumable. It could work also.

If I recall correctly Peru had these possible ships
Cruiser:
A seven provincien class (tier 7 ?)
A ceylon subclass of the Crowncolony cruisers (tier 6?)
A variation of the early XX's scout cruiser (tier 2?)

Destroyers:
The forementioned Daring (tier 10)
A russian Izyaslav class (tier 4)
A russian Orfey class (tier 3 o 4)

There are some good mentions there. The Ceylon subclass (one of the many Almirante Grau ships too lol) I always wondered about, because it has one less turret than the Fiji class. Slightly better than a Leander, or worse than a Fiji. Maybe tier 6 without the single launch torps and a Soviet style smoke, or a tier 7 with HE to make the difference in it's lack of a fourth turret.

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That variant of Almirante Grau didn't have any torpedoes at all, exchanging them for even more improved AA. 5 twin Bofors and up to 8 additional single Bofors will do an excellent job of making planes go away. Without delving deep into the box o' gimmicks, I think T6 is a stretch, and they might even fit a T5 in fully vanilla form.

I particularly like how Peru rebuilt their Fletchers (Villar & Almirante Guise). They stripped the Bofors, 20mm guns, one bank of torpedo tubes and one main gun in exchange for 3 of the twin 76mm autoloadering AA guns from the Des Moines. It will even out AA a Kidd, especially since I'd only place it at T7, due to the loss of main battery firepower.

Matt

Edited by mobryan
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I'm very excited about the Pan-American tree. I would very much like to see which ships WG will choose to represent Brazil.

As for the video, about the aircraft carrier NAe São Paulo (A-12), I think it does not make much sense to be hypothetically quoted for the game. He served in the French Navy in the 1960s and Brazil bought it only in 2000.

The aircraft carrier closest to the reality of the game would be the NAeL Minas Gerais (A-11) Colossus-Class that was launched on January 15 1945, by the Royal Navy as HMS Vengeance, which was later commissioned by the Royal Australian Navy in 1952 as HMAS Vengeance. Only in 1960, Vengeance was purchased by the Brazilian Navy and named Minas Gerais.

The NAeL Minas Gerais generates some difficulties for the game: (1) Same name of the battleship Minas Geraes (name with the old spelling, 1908); (2) while an aircraft carrier of the Brazilian Navy, it is fifteen years after the World War II; and (3) by 1960, it had the modern characteristics of a post-war carrier.

I would very much like to see the Battleship Rio de Janeiro in the game, but I find this very unlikely due to a possible British lobby. As for the Battleship Minas Geraes, I think it should be a tier 3.

I was left with a doubt (excuse my ignorance on the subject), but what's the difficulty of finding a tier 4 cruiser? Is there a shortage of naval means that fill this niche?

Do you know the Acre-class destroyers? They were built at the Arsenal de Marinha do Rio de Janeiro (Navy Arsenal of Rio de Janeiro), during the 1940s.

Edited by DemetriusDF79
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