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I found this, and I want to share with you guys this piece of history, a rare footage of a naval exercise of the Argentine Navy on 1936, recorded from a film called "La Muchachada de Abordo" of Luis Sandrini on the same year. Here you will see a few ships from the argentine navy, and they are: the Battleship Rivadavia, Heavy Cruiser 25 de Mayo, and the destroyers Mendoza, Tucumán and La Rioja among others.

 

With the new PanAmerican line becoming a reality (a thing I welcome and want to say thanks WG for that, and I will wait for new ships and another pan-like tree, like a European one, because, more ships, more fun) one of these ships could end in the tech tree, maybe as regular ships or premium ones. Hope you guys can find this interesting.

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My favorite country to play in HoI4.  I always say I am going to invade South Africa for chromium on THIS playthru, but I never do.  By 1948 the US has fallen and turned into my fascist puppet and I am looking at a Russian dominated Europe that I just don't feel like invading.  

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Vienticinco de Mayo needs to be a premium, basically no place to put it on the tree, since it was the only "modern" CA on the continent. It would be an excellent way to pre-test the RM CA's, too, being Italian built and sharing many of the same design cues.

Mendoza is another good premium candidate, especially since most of the modeling has already been done. Jianwei hull, Gallant guns, set the speed to 40 knots and torpedo depth to shallow, and you have a good T6 DD.

I suspect, though, that the next Pan-Am boat will be Brazilian. It's another big market, and it has it's own good list of premium candidates. Perhaps with the success of the Boise/NdJ release, we might get a Rio de Janeiro/HMS Agincourt pair?

 

Matt

 

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10 minutes ago, mobryan said:

Vienticinco de Mayo needs to be a premium, basically no place to put it on the tree, since it was the only "modern" CA on the continent

I think in tier 5. 

 

11 minutes ago, mobryan said:

I suspect, though, that the next Pan-Am boat will be Brazilian. It's another big market, and it has it's own good list of premium candidates

Yeah. While I would love to see more ships from my country I must admit that may be the amazonas are more intresting ship. 

 

12 minutes ago, mobryan said:

Perhaps with the success of the Boise/NdJ release, we might get a Rio de Janeiro/HMS Agincourt pair?

I had'nt thought about that possibility. It could actually be a triple with Turkey.

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1 hour ago, Talleyrand said:

I think in tier 5.

 @Taichunger (Set Nerd Level = 100) :cap_haloween:

I agree that it's probably a natural fit at T5, but in the current MM, no one is going to buy a T5 cruiser. I think it could be successfully brought up to T6, however, even with the small number of guns. I've been looking at doing a write up on her, and once you get deep into the numbers, there are certain advantages to those odd caliber 190mm guns.

The natural comparison is to the Kirov & Molotov, all of them are heavily influenced by Italian designs of the period, all are about the same size and feature high velocity guns of similar caliber. VdM has armour between what exists on Kirov and the upgrades on Molotov, though with worse deck armour. Both have similar secondary batteries and stock AA, and both have situational torpedoes. (The launchers on VdM were deck-mounted, but fixed in position. I'd fudge history a bit and let them swivel for gameplay purposes.) They all share a A-B-Y turret layout.The biggest difference, and it's a large one, is that the VdM only mounts 2 guns per turret. The question, then, is how to compensate an otherwise similar boat for 2/3rds the main battery guns.

The secret is in one of the small differences between those guns. The Russian sisters mount 180mm guns, while the VdM has 190mm guns. It's only  an additional 10mm in gun size, but like Mogami's 155mm guns, or the 460mm Yamato guns, it's an important increase in WoWs, since it places them on the other side of some important thresholds. Unlike the 180mm guns, VdM gets overmatch on 13mm plating, allowing you to LOL-pen the ends of  cruisers like Atlanta, the Molotov herself, and basically anything British designed, up to T8. 190mm also comes within a hair of being able to pen 32mm plate with HE. Regular HE pen is 1/6 shell diameter, the normal enhanced HE shell is 1/4 diameter. Getting VdM to penetrate 32mm plate would require something like 1/5.8. (My math teacher just rolled over in her grave as I mixed decimals and fractions, but it gets the point across...) If the HE shell was set to pen 32mm plate, it would greatly increase VdM's ability to punch up against T8 boats, while having a negligible effect on her performance against same and lower tier boats. Using that 1/5.8 ratio also prevents any shenanigans with IFHE. 190mm shells with 1/4 pen and IFHE would also cross the 50mm threshold, which I think is overkill. The idea is not to make a CA version of the RN BB's, just to provide enough help to keep her competitive when uptiered. The one downside to those 190mm gun is their patently Italian ballistics. Compared to the Russian guns, they fire a slightly lighter shell even faster, resulting in remarkably flat short range arcs that turn into arcing lobs at long range.

 

Now, how do you use all that math to make a T6 boat that can compete against higher tier boats without just crushing the competition at it's own level? (Looking at you, Caesar... ) The 1/5.8 HE shells are an important part of that, they help level the field against T8s, while providing no real benefit against same or lower tier boats, who would already be vulnerable to normal 1/6 HE. With Haida, WG proved that they are willing to tweak shell alpha for balance purposes, and having a fairly unique caliber (Only shared by the RN's Hawkins class CAs) means that whatever values they choose will simply be the new normal. I've been proposing a RoF booster for Pan-Am ships for quite a while, and now that WG has announced they are testing one on the Jean Bart, it's obvious the mechanics are in the game to support it.

I would set a DPM target about 5-10% less than Molotov's and use a combination of improved base reload (5rpm/12 seconds), improved alpha, and RoF booster to bring the main guns in line.  I think a small reduction in DPM is an acceptable trade off for the 32mm HE pen, 13mm overmatch, faster shell speed,  and reduced reload. 6km-8km torpedoes can help make up the difference in damage, Molotov's 4km fish are completely situational. If a RoF booster is off the table, Nueve has already set a precedent for Pan-Am boats with heals, and if you look at the line as a whole, it could be a useful trait for the whole line, they tend to be a bit slow and slightly undersized for their armament. VdM had several different AA fits throughout her service,  ranging from 6 102mm DP guns and 6 40mm/39 Italian pompoms to 10 40mm twin Bofors. The homogeneous Bofors battery is overall superior to Molotov's AA, though at expense of any secondary guns. The middle ground refit keeps the 102mm guns and replaces the  ineffective pompoms with 4 Bofors twins, effectively mimicking Kirov's top AA battery.

 

All together, I think VdM can be a T6 boat that can provide useful support in high tier games without simply crushing the lower tier competition.

 

Matt

 

 

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12 minutes ago, mobryan said:

 @Taichunger (Set Nerd Level = 100) :cap_haloween:

I agree that it's probably a natural fit at T5, but in the current MM, no one is going to buy a T5 cruiser. I think it could be successfully brought up to T6, however, even with the small number of guns. I've been looking at doing a write up on her, and once you get deep into the numbers, there are certain advantages to those odd caliber 190mm guns.

The natural comparison is to the Kirov & Molotov, all of them are heavily influenced by Italian designs of the period, all are about the same size and feature high velocity guns of similar caliber. VdM has armour between what exists on Kirov and the upgrades on Molotov, though with worse deck armour. Both have similar secondary batteries and stock AA, and both have situational torpedoes. (The launchers on VdM were deck-mounted, but fixed in position. I'd fudge history a bit and let them swivel for gameplay purposes.) They all share a A-B-Y turret layout.The biggest difference, and it's a large one, is that the VdM only mounts 2 guns per turret. The question, then, is how to compensate an otherwise similar boat for 2/3rds the main battery guns.

The secret is in one of the small differences between those guns. The Russian sisters mount 180mm guns, while the VdM has 190mm guns. It's only  an additional 10mm in gun size, but like Mogami's 155mm guns, or the 460mm Yamato guns, it's an important increase in WoWs, since it places them on the other side of some important thresholds. Unlike the 180mm guns, VdM gets overmatch on 13mm plating, allowing you to LOL-pen the ends of  cruisers like Atlanta, the Molotov herself, and basically anything British designed, up to T8. 190mm also comes within a hair of being able to pen 32mm plate with HE. Regular HE pen is 1/6 shell diameter, the normal enhanced HE shell is 1/4 diameter. Getting VdM to penetrate 32mm plate would require something like 1/5.8. (My math teacher just rolled over in her grave as I mixed decimals and fractions, but it gets the point across...) If the HE shell was set to pen 32mm plate, it would greatly increase VdM's ability to punch up against T8 boats, while having a negligible effect on her performance against same and lower tier boats. Using that 1/5.8 ratio also prevents any shenanigans with IFHE. 190mm shells with 1/4 pen and IFHE would also cross the 50mm threshold, which I think is overkill. The idea is not to make a CA version of the RN BB's, just to provide enough help to keep her competitive when uptiered. The one downside to those 190mm gun is their patently Italian ballistics. Compared to the Russian guns, they fire a slightly lighter shell even faster, resulting in remarkably flat short range arcs that turn into arcing lobs at long range.

 

Now, how do you use all that math to make a T6 boat that can compete against higher tier boats without just crushing the competition at it's own level? (Looking at you, Caesar... ) The 1/5.8 HE shells are an important part of that, they help level the field against T8s, while providing no real benefit against same or lower tier boats, who would already be vulnerable to normal 1/6 HE. With Haida, WG proved that they are willing to tweak shell alpha for balance purposes, and having a fairly unique caliber (Only shared by the RN's Hawkins class CAs) means that whatever values they choose will simply be the new normal. I've been proposing a RoF booster for Pan-Am ships for quite a while, and now that WG has announced they are testing one on the Jean Bart, it's obvious the mechanics are in the game to support it.

I would set a DPM target about 5-10% less than Molotov's and use a combination of improved base reload (5rpm/12 seconds), improved alpha, and RoF booster to bring the main guns in line.  I think a small reduction in DPM is an acceptable trade off for the 32mm HE pen, 13mm overmatch, faster shell speed,  and reduced reload. 6km-8km torpedoes can help make up the difference in damage, Molotov's 4km fish are completely situational. If a RoF booster is off the table, Nueve has already set a precedent for Pan-Am boats with heals, and if you look at the line as a whole, it could be a useful trait for the whole line, they tend to be a bit slow and slightly undersized for their armament. VdM had several different AA fits throughout her service,  ranging from 6 102mm DP guns and 6 40mm/39 Italian pompoms to 10 40mm twin Bofors. The homogeneous Bofors battery is overall superior to Molotov's AA, though at expense of any secondary guns. The middle ground refit keeps the 102mm guns and replaces the  ineffective pompoms with 4 Bofors twins, effectively mimicking Kirov's top AA battery.

 

All together, I think VdM can be a T6 boat that can provide useful support in high tier games without simply crushing the lower tier competition.

 

Matt

 

 

You know, @COLDOWN and i were disgusting the exact tier for "Veinticinco" for a couple of years. I used to advocate for tier 5, Coldown for tier 6. But with the Rateof fire booster and the other small changes I think it may work in tier 6. Huanghe is smaller and less armored amd yet is there in tier 6. So May be it can work.

@COLDOWN is goign to the museum of the navy this week. If I'm not mistaken you needed some data of an AA gun to be checked?

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1 minute ago, Talleyrand said:

You know, @COLDOWN and i were disgusting the exact tier for "Veinticinco" for a couple of years. I used to advocate for tier 5, Coldown for tier 6. But with the Rateof fire booster and the other small changes I think it may work in tier 6. Huanghe is smaller and less armored amd yet is there in tier 6. So May be it can work.

@COLDOWN is goign to the museum of the navy this week. If I'm not mistaken you needed some data of an AA gun to be checked?

I do, and I would greatly appreciate it if he could check it for me.

 

I'll PM the specifics.

 

Matt

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6 hours ago, Psicopro said:

My favorite country to play in HoI4.  I always say I am going to invade South Africa for chromium on THIS playthru, but I never do.  By 1948 the US has fallen and turned into my fascist puppet and I am looking at a Russian dominated Europe that I just don't feel like invading.  

HoI4 is such a great game

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1 hour ago, mobryan said:

 All together, I think VdM can be a T6 boat that can provide useful support in high tier games without simply crushing the lower tier competition.

1

I like you :cap_like:

 

1 hour ago, Talleyrand said:

You know, @COLDOWN and i were disgusting the exact tier for "Veinticinco" for a couple of years. I used to advocate for tier 5, Coldown for tier 6. But with the Rateof fire booster and the other small changes I think it may work in tier 6. Huanghe is smaller and less armored amd yet is there in tier 6. So May be it can work.

7

And the battle continues :cap_haloween:

1 hour ago, mobryan said:

I'll PM the specifics.

 

I have read your message. I will answer you shortly. Regards

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1 hour ago, Battleship_Warspite said:

Propaganda footage is always a bit creepy. Still, cool vid.

The movie was a romantic comedy. I'm thinking there could be a paralelism with "Top gun" but in the mid 30s.  

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