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Rumple010

IJN BB national flavour - is there one?

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The various BB lines all have features that distinguish them from each other.

American - fantastic AA and sniper guns (at least the higher tiers)

German - monster secondaries and citadel proof (mostly) armour

British - BURN EVERYTHING!!!

French - go faster button (insert retreat joke here) French are a bit of a grab bag but not too surprising given they are the most recent BB line to drop.

Japanese - ?

AA is meh. Secondaries are meh. Guns are good but when you talk accurate BB guns most people will think American BBs. Armour is not noticeably better or worse than other lines. So what is the Japanese BB national flavour? Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging IJN BBs. I'm currently grinding the IJN BB line and have been having a ball with Kongo, Fuso and Nagato. But I haven't found a stand-out feature of the IJN BBs I've unlocked so far. Do other people feel the same way or am I missing something?

Yes, Yamato has the lolpen guns but she's just one ship and her guns are not representative of the line in general.

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Accurate, long-range guns with high AP damage and (at top tier) extreme overmatching capabilities. They also have excellent torpedo bulges, generally.

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17 minutes ago, Rumple010 said:

Yes, Yamato has the lolpen guns but she's just one ship and her guns are not representative of the line in general.

the musashi has the same guns, even tho shes not a tech tree ship.....i wanted the musahi cuz reasons similar to yammi, and can punish fail-divs very hard.....(if i am lucky to see 1, that is)

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25 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

main-qimg-cfd2ae25939db60dc071d8d2ba69d9

Close, but I think it needs a 12x scope to truly represent the sniper-sawed-off-shotgun that is the typical IJN BB  (Fuso, at least).

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Speaking in regards to the high tiers (T8-T10), it's not all cut and dry with ship lines, but in general, Japanese gunnery is very strong across the board with excellent penetration, shell damage, shell velocity, dispersion and sigma, range, and overmatch capability.  Comparatively, American gunnery also has very good penetration and shell damage, but isn't quite as good in terms of shell velocity and dispersion.  At long ranges, the strength of Japanese gunnery becomes more apparent. 

 

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The "national flavor" is accurate, large guns. A lot of the Japanese battleships have larger guns than their contemporaries. 

I know what you mean though, they seem rather bland now in comparison to some other lines. 

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Consistent gunnery with the best dispersion in the game among all BB Lines.  That is their gimmick.  Japanese Battleships don't need to get into brawling range to be effective.

 

Good to long range capability.  There is no stupid 16.02km bullsh*t like New Mexico, no stupid 18km range cap on your guns like some others.  Typically if you see it, you can shoot at it.

 

The most powerful, accurate Battleship guns in the game are IJN BBs.

The only BB Guns with Overmatch / LOLPEN superiority is the IJN 460mm.  Not even the 431mm on Republique, 420mm on GK, nor 457mm on Conqueror have this luxury.

And to top it off, WG thought it'd be funny to "nerf" a Tier X Yamato and put it in Tier IX and smash Tier VII faces with high comedic value.

 

Japanese BB gunnery is consistently good.  They are either modest in gun count but high accuracy (Yamato, Nagato for instance), or they have a ton of guns with shotgun quality to bag hits (Fuso, Amagi).

 

In contrast, USN BBs don't get good gunnery starting in Tier VIII, even then, at VIII they have very floaty shells.  It's not until way late in the game where USN BB gunnery is decent, you have to slog through SIX TIERS of mediocre BBs with mediocre guns.

German BB Gunnery is the worst for usefulness, consistency, and it gets more annoying the higher in tier you go.

French BBs are okay but they like using 380mm far too long and that has issues where even some CAs will bow tank your sh*t and out DPM you as they do so.

RN BBs don't do the AP Alpha Striking that Traditional AP-slinging BBs do.  Conqueror?  Who cares.  Yamato 460mm says, "Hi!"

 

WG has gone out of its way to make sure IJN 460mm maintains its superiority.  The greatest proof of that is that Conqueror 457mm, being only 3mm smaller than the IJN 460s, lacks the Overmatch / LOLPEN capability of the Japanese gun, and this British gun suffers as a result.

 

Battleship Firepower is highly prized.  You see constant complaining about range, gunnery, power, and dispersion issues.  Only the IJN BB Line mitigates those issues some.  USN BBs do also, but not until Tier Freakin' NINE.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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3 minutes ago, Spieges said:

The "national flavor" is accurate, large guns. A lot of the Japanese battleships have larger guns than their contemporaries. 

I know what you mean though, they seem rather bland now in comparison to some other lines. 

Subtlety has always been the hallmark of Japanese cuisine.

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The best thing about the IJN BB "gimmick" is that it caters to a fundamental strength BB players want.

 

Main Battery Performance.

 

And it's performance that doesn't demand you be in brawling or knife fighting range to be effective.  You have some players in the Brawling BB Lines considering, or have already dropped Secondary Builds in favor of Main Battery Builds.  Why?

"Because my main battery does almost all my damage anyways."

4ea.jpg

 

You got Bismarck, FDG owners bitterly complaining about combat in a Tier VIII-X match.  Meanwhile, Amagi quietly, contently does her job well in a Tier X match.  She doesn't have to compromise her safety to get into effective gun range like the Brawlers do.

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i think your suppose to be like a samurai but it failed cause yamato captain have no honor haha

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2 hours ago, Rumple010 said:

The various BB lines all have features that distinguish them from each other.

American - fantastic AA and sniper guns (at least the higher tiers)

German - monster secondaries and citadel proof (mostly) armour

British - BURN EVERYTHING!!!

French - go faster button (insert retreat joke here) French are a bit of a grab bag but not too surprising given they are the most recent BB line to drop.

Japanese - ?

AA is meh. Secondaries are meh. Guns are good but when you talk accurate BB guns most people will think American BBs. Armour is not noticeably better or worse than other lines. So what is the Japanese BB national flavour? Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging IJN BBs. I'm currently grinding the IJN BB line and have been having a ball with Kongo, Fuso and Nagato. But I haven't found a stand-out feature of the IJN BBs I've unlocked so far. Do other people feel the same way or am I missing something?

Yes, Yamato has the lolpen guns but she's just one ship and her guns are not representative of the line in general.

Good Main Battery performance from tier 5 onward, good speed at tier across the entire line, in some cases the fastest in tier. Generally bad stealth (pagodas can be seen from orbit, you ain't sneaking anywhere.) and less than spectacular armor, but if played right, good enough for the task. fair to poor AA, and the earliest access to spotter planes (tier 4)

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1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Good Main Battery performance from tier 5 onward, good speed at tier across the entire line, in some cases the fastest in tier. Generally bad stealth (pagodas can be seen from orbit, you ain't sneaking anywhere.) and less than spectacular armor, but if played right, good enough for the task. fair to poor AA, and the earliest access to spotter planes (tier 4)

Stealth is a sore point for the line.

 

If Kongo had better stealth, she'd be like Caesar.

Fuso is the least stealthiest BB in the entire game once you factor in CE, camo, and upgrades.  Even Yamato is stealthier.

 

VI Fuso with camo + CE goes down to 15.8km detection range.

X GK, Yamato, Republique with camo + CE +CSM1 all go down to 13.5km detection range.

Amagi at Tier VIII with camo + CSM1 but no CE goes down to 15.1km detection range.

 

The funny part is due to the access of Slot 5 Upgrades, the largest Battleship in the IJN BB line with one of the highest detection ranges becomes one of the stealthiest of the entire IJN BB Line :Smile_teethhappy:

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18 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Stealth is a sore point for the line.

 

If Kongo had better stealth, she'd be like Caesar.

Fuso is the least stealthiest BB in the entire game once you factor in CE, camo, and upgrades.  Even Yamato is stealthier.

 

VI Fuso with camo + CE goes down to 15.8km detection range.

X GK, Yamato, Republique with camo + CE +CSM1 all go down to 13.5km detection range.

Amagi at Tier VIII with camo + CSM1 but no CE goes down to 15.1km detection range.

 

The funny part is due to the access of Slot 5 Upgrades, the largest Battleship in the IJN BB line with one of the highest detection ranges becomes one of the stealthiest of the entire IJN BB Line :Smile_teethhappy:

I gave up on stealth on IJN battleships a long time ago. Fire your guns, the whole map sees you anyway. Heck, with Yamato or Musashi, when you fire the guns, people in other games see you when firing.

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IJN BBs are the only line to have their own special dispersion, every other line uses the same dispersion model copied from the USN line. This makes the IJN much more accurate at longer ranges. I still dunno why WG hasn't reused it or made a different model to use though

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6 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

German BB Gunnery is the worst for usefulness, consistency, and it gets more annoying the higher in tier you go.

 

I don't find them terrible all-around, only at long range outside of 14-15km

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4 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

I gave up on stealth on IJN battleships a long time ago. Fire your guns, the whole map sees you anyway. Heck, with Yamato or Musashi, when you fire the guns, people in other games see you when firing.

Ahh, but if you implemented a stealth build on Yammie, she goes down to 13.5km!  GK, Republique are the same with the same stealth build.  Montana was considered decently stealthy before Conqueror arrived, but with stealth build, she's 13.4km.  Only 0.1km better than GK, Yamato, Republique!

 

2 hours ago, 7_3_PowerStroke said:

I don't find them terrible all-around, only at long range outside of 14-15km

Ahh, but that's the problem!  You never hear Bismarck, Tirpitz players complain when they're top tier, i.e. a Tier VI-VIII match.  But when they're in a VIII-X match, when it's really stand-off'ish and 16km+ BB salvos are VERY common, that's where German BB Gunnery falls apart.  GK with her x12 guns has it best, but even then, she's not as reliable as ASM1-fitted Conqueror, Yamato, Montana.  Meanwhile, Montana, Conqueror, Yamato are fighting in their element... ranged combat.  This is especially true if you're the typical Secondary Spec that German BBs utilize and skip out on ASM1.

 

Personally, I could adopt a Main Battery Build on my GK, but I won't.  If I want a Main Battery focused BB I already have Yamato, Montana, Conqueror.

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5 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Ahh, but if you implemented a stealth build on Yammie, she goes down to 13.5km!  GK, Republique are the same with the same stealth build.  Montana was considered decently stealthy before Conqueror arrived, but with stealth build, she's 13.4km.  Only 0.1km better than GK, Yamato, Republique!

 

Ahh, but that's the problem!  You never hear Bismarck, Tirpitz players complain when they're top tier, i.e. a Tier VI-VIII match.  But when they're in a VIII-X match, when it's really stand-off'ish and 16km+ BB salvos are VERY common, that's where German BB Gunnery falls apart.  GK with her x12 guns has it best, but even then, she's not as reliable as ASM1-fitted Conqueror, Yamato, Montana.  Meanwhile, Montana, Conqueror, Yamato are fighting in their element... ranged combat.  This is especially true if you're the typical Secondary Spec that German BBs utilize and skip out on ASM1.

 

Personally, I could adopt a Main Battery Build on my GK, but I won't.  If I want a Main Battery focused BB I already have Yamato, Montana, Conqueror.

At best, with regards to stealth, IJN BB's are equal to the pack. Stealth doesn't really help them much. The secondaries are functional, but nothing special, you don't really want to get that close. Also, your turret traverse is usually fairly poor, so, in a knife fight, you'll be turning the ship to get your guns on target, and as a result, give your broadside, not something IJN BB armor can handle.

Then you have Kongo and Fuso, whos pagoda's can almost be seen from opposing starting areas of the map.

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22 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

At best, with regards to stealth, IJN BB's are equal to the pack. Stealth doesn't really help them much. The secondaries are functional, but nothing special, you don't really want to get that close. Also, your turret traverse is usually fairly poor, so, in a knife fight, you'll be turning the ship to get your guns on target, and as a result, give your broadside, not something IJN BB armor can handle.

Then you have Kongo and Fuso, whos pagoda's can almost be seen from opposing starting areas of the map.

It's about using the stealth to get advantageous opening salvos.  Defensively, it's a lot easier to disengage with 13.5km detection range than 15.7km without CE or worse if you neglected CSM1, etc. on top of that.

 

Yamato can take a pounding, but there are times when she really needs to disengage.  Being easy to spot from halfway across the map doesn't help in that case.

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Doesn't Musashi kind of buck the trend by having not-so-great accuracy? She's still an IJN BB, so she can make just about most shots, but she has neither the IJN trademark of great-BB-accuracy (tm) of Yamato or Nagato, nor Fuso-like shotgun spread. Well, the reasoning is pretty obvious, since she's just a nerfed Yamato for the sake of being at one tier lower to meet Tier VII ships.

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5 hours ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Doesn't Musashi kind of buck the trend by having not-so-great accuracy? She's still an IJN BB, so she can make just about most shots, but she has neither the IJN trademark of great-BB-accuracy (tm) of Yamato or Nagato, nor Fuso-like shotgun spread. Well, the reasoning is pretty obvious, since she's just a nerfed Yamato for the sake of being at one tier lower to meet Tier VII ships.

She's not that much worse. Yamato has insane gun accuracy, Musashi has to settle for merely being good and still has the lol-pen abilities.

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6 hours ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Doesn't Musashi kind of buck the trend by having not-so-great accuracy? She's still an IJN BB, so she can make just about most shots, but she has neither the IJN trademark of great-BB-accuracy (tm) of Yamato or Nagato, nor Fuso-like shotgun spread. Well, the reasoning is pretty obvious, since she's just a nerfed Yamato for the sake of being at one tier lower to meet Tier VII ships.

When you see Musashi's guns in action, either as a user or on the receiving end, the complaints about her guns are all B.S.

 

Yamato is the most accurate BB in the game.  Musashi is nerfed to be slightly worse than the most accurate BB in the game.  How is this bad for Musashi?

Yamato will be more consistent.  But let's not pretend as if Musashi is Bismarck at long range in terms of accuracy.  Musashi, even with her lower sigma 460mm guns, is more accurate than many BBs she encounters.

 

Consider that Musashi is a Tier X ship masquerading as a Tier IX and the MM implications.  Better yet, because she has those 460mm guns, her firepower is enough to make any BB be worried about her, even Tier X BBs.  Even Yamato, as IJN 460 is the only thing that can plow Yamato right through the bow.  Dude, even the reload time is competitive.  30 seconds base reload time, before MBM3 or AR kicking in.  Iowa / Missouri, Montana reload at 30 seconds and they fire only 406mm.  FDG fires at 28 second reloads with the 406mm guns, but if she uses the 420mm ones, it's at 32 seconds!  Lion with her 419mm fires at 30 seconds.  All while Musashi packs massive 460mm guns with reloads on par with her peers.  All while she still packs the same Overmatch / LOLPEN mechanics that Yamato leverages.

 

I mean, WG honestly thought it was a good idea to put a Yamato-class in Tier IX.

Eq2qrrQ.jpg

LJin0YP.gif?noredirect

I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to berate you.  It's just I like to think about the process behind this decision to put a Yamato-class in Tier IX.  I'd like to have seen video recordings of how this went down.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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27 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to berate you.

Ahaha. No offense taken. I know what you mean. And I believe you're one of few people on this forum who can really explain things for the reader to understand. I appreciate that. :Smile_Default:

I do have Musashi myself, but I'm not that good at making long range shots. Most of the time, I manage just one, or maybe two, shell(s) to hit the target, and rest of the shells in the salvo just scatter into the sea, lol.

Then again, I was never a sniper kind of player in most games I played. I'm more of a shotgun or a submachine gun type, who would rather go closer, lel. :Smile_hiding:

What's worse for me is that I'm a PvE main, and we all know how high tier bots get boost to their accuracy. My bot counterpart always lands more shells per salvo than I ever do, and sometimes it's actually depressing, lul. :Smile_teethhappy:

I was wrong for thinking that Musashi was bucking the trend. She clearly is still an IJN BB. I just need to aim better. Ahaha. :Smile_hiding:

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8 hours ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Ahaha. No offense taken. I know what you mean. And I believe you're one of few people on this forum who can really explain things for the reader to understand. I appreciate that. :Smile_Default:

I do have Musashi myself, but I'm not that good at making long range shots. Most of the time, I manage just one, or maybe two, shell(s) to hit the target, and rest of the shells in the salvo just scatter into the sea, lol.

Then again, I was never a sniper kind of player in most games I played. I'm more of a shotgun or a submachine gun type, who would rather go closer, lel. :Smile_hiding:

What's worse for me is that I'm a PvE main, and we all know how high tier bots get boost to their accuracy. My bot counterpart always lands more shells per salvo than I ever do, and sometimes it's actually depressing, lul. :Smile_teethhappy:

I was wrong for thinking that Musashi was bucking the trend. She clearly is still an IJN BB. I just need to aim better. Ahaha. :Smile_hiding:

Again, Yamato will still consistently pull tricks than Musashi.  She is better in every way statistically and capability wise.  But this inferior ship still packs 460mm guns that can even punch Yamato clean through the nose and batter other Tier X BBs.  The funny part is that as a Tier IX, match maker occasionally throws Musashi a bone and says, "Okay, you get to play around with your Tier VII toys for a bit.  You see that big fat, immobile Nelson over there?  HAVE FUN!"

 

It's real funny in a Tier VII match, when a Musashi has stealthily found a fighting position and then opens up with her guns.  The red ships, especially the BBs, scatter like roaches.  It's Tier X firepower, Tier X armor, Tier X HP stuffed into a Tier IX BB.

 

Makes sense, WG.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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