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TL_Warlord_Roff

Uhg! Ok, hey About those brit DD's (and more)

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SO, it appears the UK 112's on the DD's have the same issue as the IJN 100's .

It appears that they need that same 1/4 pen value for HE as the IJN ship are getting for the 100mm's.   Several CC's have commented and while I'm not a ST, or a CC, I agree with them.   They're looking uncomfortably difficult to play.  

I'm also starting to be of the opinion that it may be time to take a pass over DD guns and look at pen values for the HE to make sure they're actually usable across all lines and tiers.   I don't know the numbers but I'd be unsurprised if the UK 112's did not have the same issues with shell shatters as the IJN Guns.     I fully realize that finding the balance is difficult.  If the ship requires a commander skill to make it's offensive systems have real utility in game  and workable I consider that an issue.   

The thin the plating idea  as a global change didn't work because it made the DD's even more vulnerable to gun fire from 5.9" to 9.2" rounds from cruisers.  On the one hand this is not unrealistic.  DD's depended on good engineering, good tactics and well trained crews to survive potential  catastrophic damage, not armor.   The important aspect of gun era DD's are speed and maneuverability for survival.  Your "armor" is to not get hit.   

Of all the ships in the game the DD's come closest to the modern concept of a ships being a platform for weapons systems.   One particular hull in the current US navy inventory if out fitted  out in one way is considered a cruiser, and in another is considered a destroyer.. same hull, same power plant.  We taxpayers back in the day scratched our heads at that one   But the Navy was all,  hey it works for us.  It's really cost effective and helps keep maintenance and logistics cost down.  Considering the rest of the world consider most modern US Navy DD's classes to be light cruiser by displacement.. well "Meh! It is what it is."  The US Navy classifies ships by mission, not by hull displacement these days, and modern fleet destroyer are main combattants.

Either way that last paragraph is "chrome" and background.  We are not in the modern era in this game, and DD's have to be just as effective as Cruisers, and Battleships, and Carriers or no one will drive them, even if they do require a bit more circumspect handling and attention to detail for the player to wring the best out of them.  DD's do not forgive you your errors.  Even the handful that do pack a repair.  This is especially true when your own team in matches will rarely provide you real support by being in a position where they have clear arcs of fire to shoot at anything that shoots at your DD.  When they do it's a match winning strat.  When they don't..  well, it may or may not cost the match.  but it certainly irritates we DD drivers to have some player tell you that they will provide support and then they promptly drive behind an island where they cannot fire on targets that are firing on you much less targets you spot.   If you cannot get shots off for whatever reason, then you cannot provide support.   There's no wiggle room there. It's totally a binary solution set and should be obvious and simple.   Driving DD's in this game... interesting and pretty seriously challenging.  Gotta learn folks, battle is not fought on a time scale that convenient.  Tactics are real, ships move because if you don't move you are just a target.  Your either fighting or your not.  As a DD main on your team, if your not shooting those Cruiser and Battleship guns at targets as fast as they can cycle your not useful to what I'm trying to accomplish out there, and that is win the match for both of us.

There is only so much the Wargame can do to balance the game.. The rest is up to US.   They will sort their end, it's up to us to sort our end out because they simply can't do it for us.

I suspect far to many players consider Warships some sort of fancy ship based variant on first person shooters.  If you think that it is, I'm sorry but you are wrong.  This is a COMBAT game, not a game of who has the sniper rifle.   WOT is more a FPS then this game is.  Success in Worships play is a team effort.  Watching kings of the sea, and clan battle fight videos on YouTube should make this obviously clear.  The teams that wins, plays offensively.  They never stop pushing, and they never entirely stop moving, and they are always shooting.  How do you learn to that?  You go out there and you do it, and fail, and eventually learn how to it right.  There's no manual or how to vid's.  To many possible variables, which by the way is why Bots do so utterly miserable against human players, because if it were easy Co-op play would be utter misery for you to play in and the bots would regularly kick human player butt.

ANyway, that is it for me today.. Off to go find a fray!

Warlord sends

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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IFHE itself is an issue, instead of being something a few ships here and there take, its become "take this or get no damage"

At the root of these issues IMO is the oversimplification of armor thickness/breakpoints, and penetration.

if HE did spalling damage if might not be as bad, but i think we have enough HE spam.

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WG: Rant unclear. Decided to remove HE off RN DDs and replace with RNAP. Added British Repair Party. Heals 60% of damage rather than the standard 50%. This should better synchronize with the RN CL line. :cap_haloween:


Semi-joking aside (you know it's likely to happen), I could see them buffing it to at most, 1/5 HE, but I doubt it. They're already being given stealth that rivals IJN torpedo DDs like Shimakaze, while the IJN gunboats with 10cm guns are far less maneuverable or stealthy than the RN rivals, though in exchange, the IJN gunboat DDs can punch through more targets.

As far as IFHE itself, it really should be nerfed or removed; it's kind of become so mandatory that it's better to just meet halfway.

  • DDs get a flat 1/4.5 or 1/5 HE pen buff, unless flavoring comes into play (IJN 10cm getting 1/4 HE pen).
  • Cruisers get a flat 1/5 HE pen buff unless flavoring comes into play (RN CLs having no HE and KM CAs having 1/4 HE pen).
  • BBs get 1/4 HE pen. Advocates more usage of HE on BBs besides the RN BBs; moreso when paired with the eventual DD armor changes.
  • CV secondaries match that of their DD or cruiser caliber equivalent.

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20 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

IFHE itself is an issue, instead of being something a few ships here and there take, its become "take this or get no damage"

At the root of these issues IMO is the oversimplification of armor thickness/breakpoints, and penetration.

if HE did spalling damage if might not be as bad, but i think we have enough HE spam.

What if AP did spalling damage? (Up to a certain point.)

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4 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said:

WG: Rant unclear. Decided to remove HE off RN DDs and replace with RNAP. Added British Repair Party. Heals 60% of damage rather than the standard 50%. This should better synchronize with the RN CL line. :cap_haloween:


Semi-joking aside (you know it's likely to happen), I could see them buffing it to at most, 1/5 HE, but I doubt it. They're already being given stealth that rivals IJN torpedo DDs like Shimakaze, while the IJN gunboats with 10cm guns are far less maneuverable or stealthy than the RN rivals, though in exchange, the IJN gunboat DDs can punch through more targets.

As far as IFHE itself, it really should be nerfed or removed; it's kind of become so mandatory that it's better to just meet halfway.

  • DDs get a flat 1/4.5 or 1/5 HE pen buff, unless flavoring comes into play (IJN 10cm getting 1/4 HE pen).
  • Cruisers get a flat 1/5 HE pen buff unless flavoring comes into play (RN CLs having no HE and KM CAs having 1/4 HE pen).
  • BBs get 1/4 HE pen. Advocates more usage of HE on BBs besides the RN BBs; moreso when paired with the eventual DD armor changes.
  • CV secondaries match that of their DD or cruiser caliber equivalent.

I kind of favor a relatively simple solution.  

1.  Get rid of the IFHE skill.  Replace it with something else.

2.  Give all guns with a caliber of 6" or smaller a baked in version of IFHE.

3.  Leave all guns larger than 6" as is.

And that seems like it'd solve the apparent problem nice and neat.

 

That said, I could see a slightly more granular version for baked in IFHE.

A.  Guns up to 139mm get 1/6 pen IFHE.  (Mostly DD guns and smaller secondaries.)

B.  Guns from 140mm up to something just below 8" CA guns get 1/5 pen IFHE. (Mostly CL guns and larger secondaries.)

C.  Guns that are 8" or larger stay at 1/4 pen. (Heavy cruiser and battleship guns.)

 

Of course, there could be a much wilder alternative.  Get rid of HE entirely, and make all AP on CL guns or smaller use RN-like AP fuses.  But this would really throw a monkey wrench in the works because it'd remove fires from the game, unless AP was given a chance to start fires (though presumably much smaller than same caliber HE currently does).

 

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39 minutes ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

Watching kings of the sea, and clan battle fight videos on YouTube should make this obviously clear.  The teams that wins, plays offensively.  They never stop pushing, and they never entirely stop moving, and they are always shooting. 

Are we watching the same KoTS? All I see is island camping.  “Offense” is limited to DD’s reversing slowly into a cap, ready to flee instantly when the inevitable radar is triggered.

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26 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

At the root of these issues IMO is the oversimplification of armor thickness/breakpoints, and penetration.

I think the system is bad, but it's over-complex rather than too simple.

A 55lb, 792m/s projectile with diameter 127mm hits a Shimakaze - 600 damage.

A 55lb, 746m/s projectile with diameter 114mm hits a Shimakaze - 0 damage.

Either way, it's a perplexing system, especially now that the 100mm guns magically do more penetration than the 114 or 127mm weapons for very little reason.

  • Cool 1

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18 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

What if AP did spalling damage? (Up to a certain point.)

i think thats fair.

EDIT: and furthermore i would be approving of this regardless if anything happened to HE.

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16 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

What if AP did spalling damage? (Up to a certain point.)

IIRC, it used to in Alpha, but it rendered HE redundant; doing module damage like HE but only not starting fires, just extra bits of damage after the main hit (which was similar enough to a short-lived Fire DoT to warrant not switching).

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4 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

Or just make ifhe not effect rifles with 1/4 pen. 

the skill is complex enough as is, and it doesnt help that WG do not show penetration in game.

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Just now, Hanger_18 said:

the skill is complex enough as is, and it doesnt help that WG do not show penetration in game.

RP has a note that it does not work on CVs. Why not just add a short list of classes it doesn't work on. IJN 100mm, German cruisers/BBs, RN BBs and RN DDs.

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3 hours ago, YamatoA150 said:

WG: Rant unclear. Decided to remove HE off RN DDs and replace with RNAP. Added British Repair Party. Heals 60% of damage rather than the standard 50%. This should better synchronize with the RN CL line. :cap_haloween:


Semi-joking aside (you know it's likely to happen), I could see them buffing it to at most, 1/5 HE, but I doubt it. They're already being given stealth that rivals IJN torpedo DDs like Shimakaze, while the IJN gunboats with 10cm guns are far less maneuverable or stealthy than the RN rivals, though in exchange, the IJN gunboat DDs can punch through more targets.

As far as IFHE itself, it really should be nerfed or removed; it's kind of become so mandatory that it's better to just meet halfway.

  • DDs get a flat 1/4.5 or 1/5 HE pen buff, unless flavoring comes into play (IJN 10cm getting 1/4 HE pen).
  • Cruisers get a flat 1/5 HE pen buff unless flavoring comes into play (RN CLs having no HE and KM CAs having 1/4 HE pen).
  • BBs get 1/4 HE pen. Advocates more usage of HE on BBs besides the RN BBs; moreso when paired with the eventual DD armor changes.
  • CV secondaries match that of their DD or cruiser caliber equivalent.

I know your semi-joking, but wouldn't 32.5mm pen be kind of OP?  I really think they should give the new IJN DDs 1/5 pen.  1/4 made sense to German secondaries because they kept shattering against strong armor and wonky main guns accuracy didn't make up much.  German Cruisers for sure made sense because even if the HE pens, it gave little in return for damage and fire starting.  British BBs I can't remember why they gave it to them.  I'm not sure changing the percentage of IFHE form 30% to 20% is gonna do anyone any good.

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26 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

I know your semi-joking, but wouldn't 32.5mm pen be kind of OP?  I really think they should give the new IJN DDs 1/5 pen.  1/4 made sense to German secondaries because they kept shattering against strong armor and wonky main guns accuracy didn't make up much.  German Cruisers for sure made sense because even if the HE pens, it gave little in return for damage and fire starting.  British BBs I can't remember why they gave it to them.  I'm not sure changing the percentage of IFHE form 30% to 20% is gonna do anyone any good.

The only reason the IJN 10cm are getting 1/4 HE pen is to encourage grinding up to Kitakaze and Harugumo, as well as shoring up the 10cm secondaries a bit (though none of the IJN ships with 10cm secondaries can actually make adequate use of it). Neither ship have any real gimmicks that would encourage grinding them, and it gives WG more convenience with making them pretty vanilla but "exciting enough" rather than gimmicked out the aft like Pan Asian DDs or the incoming RN DDs.

I still expect that after the initial fad for Kitakaze and Harugumo dies down, the IJN 10cm DPs would end up being nerfed to 1/5 HE pen.

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for gimmicks, why not remove HE, only give them SAP and AA, if you pick the AA shell type your damage vs. aircraft goes up, like a weak AA defensive fire consumable, but your ship damage goes down.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said:

The only reason the IJN 10cm are getting 1/4 HE pen is to encourage grinding up to Kitakaze and Harugumo, as well as shoring up the 10cm secondaries a bit (though none of the IJN ships with 10cm secondaries can actually make adequate use of it). Neither ship have any real gimmicks that would encourage grinding them, and it gives WG more convenience with making them pretty vanilla but "exciting enough" rather than gimmicked out the aft like Pan Asian DDs or the incoming RN DDs.

I still expect that after the initial fad for Kitakaze and Harugumo dies down, the IJN 10cm DPs would end up being nerfed to 1/5 HE pen.

That is a very confusing statement I have to say.  The entire IJN DD tech tree goes in the complete opposite direction of conventional gun boating and fundamentals.  I don't know much about IJN DDs, but the fact that WG probably had to scrummage around to find and apply any gunboat DDs in that line is a blessing in an of itself.  I'm not mad, just how I read this in my mind sounds insulting.  Like I think the community can get away with 1/5 pen instead of game-breaking 1/4 pen baked in.  These ships aren't that special, almost like recommending a friend a car to lighten their 2 hour commune.  Would point them to a car/maker that got poor gas mileage or a car/maker that get great gas mileage?

Or hell, idk.

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34 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

That is a very confusing statement I have to say.  The entire IJN DD tech tree goes in the complete opposite direction of conventional gun boating and fundamentals.  I don't know much about IJN DDs, but the fact that WG probably had to scrummage around to find and apply any gunboat DDs in that line is a blessing in an of itself.  I'm not mad, just how I read this in my mind sounds insulting.  Like I think the community can get away with 1/5 pen instead of game-breaking 1/4 pen baked in.  These ships aren't that special, almost like recommending a friend a car to lighten their 2 hour commune.  Would point them to a car/maker that got poor gas mileage or a car/maker that get great gas mileage?

Or hell, idk.

It's about player retention and interest. Two issues at play here are that a line needs to run to T10 the first time around, and the line needs to be sufficiently interesting to entice players to go up it. This is what WG themselves had told the players in a Q&A session about lessons learned with line splits and why they were deciding to hold off any others except the USN CL line until after they finish the primary Nation lines. The USN CLs got a pass as it was something they had been saying would happen since CBT.

For the first issue; not going up to T10 was part of the main problem. WG screwed up with the IJN DD split. They released it prematurely with no T9 and T10. It was a legitimate rush job; no real gimmicks and very little differences in play style until Akizuki. As a result, the line didn't draw much interest and by their metrics, went relatively unplayed compared to lines that ended at T10. Now that it's been well over a year since the line was released, they need some way to get players reengaged into the line split. Because it's so late however, they're limited by what they can do. They can't suddenly drum up a brand new play style or gimmick for the IJN DD split after having settled it as it is for that long. They would have to redo and rebalance the entire line if they wanted to give it an actual gunboat play style, or just simply tack on a minor change that would mostly only affect the 3 actual gunships of the line. Thus, they went with simply buffing the IJN 10cm guns. It works, and it makes the Kitakaze and Harugumo sufficiently enticing to play.

The second issue; not having a real unique play style or element from the original line. This one is what contributed to the other half of the issue with the IJN DD split, as well as the entire VMF split. In the IJN DD split's case, there simply wasn't much difference between Minekaze, Hatsuharu, and Shiratsuyu from the regular IJN DD line, and for some, were confused as to why Mutsuki and Fubuki were part of the torpedo line when Minekaze did the torpedo thing better. Heck, when it first came out, the IJN DD split had better torpedo boating capability with the quick-reload TRB originally being separate, before WG changed it so that it shares a slot with smoke. Only Akizuki was the real gunship of the new line.

Basically, WG shot themselves in the foot with the IJN DD split, which locked them into that overall setup, and can only make minor changes to sell Kitakaze and Harugumo without resorting to redoing the line again in order to give it a gimmick. It's almost the same thing as the buffs the second VMF DD line got to try and entice more players to go up it (though WG outright blasted off their foot since that line's T10 is competing with Khab).


As a bit of an aside, the only reasonable way that WG could have made the IJN DD split enticing without resorting to buffing the 10cm DPs and still keeping it relatively vanilla is if WG instead used the experimental powered or semi-powered 127mm late war 12.7cm Type 1/5 on the T10 instead, as a slightly larger Kitakaze but with 4x2 127mm guns and just giving the T8-T10 a separate AADF consumable. However, WG is probably saving that gun for another future IJN DD split (say a 3-4 ship mini-split), since they didn't use it here, and they clearly don't want to give the AA escort destroyers an actual AA-boosting consumable (nevermind the fact that the VMF DD line split got one).

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16 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said:

It's about player retention and interest. Two issues at play here are that a line needs to run to T10 the first time around, and the line needs to be sufficiently interesting to entice players to go up it. This is what WG themselves had told the players in a Q&A session about lessons learned with line splits and why they were deciding to hold off any others except the USN CL line until after they finish the primary Nation lines. The USN CLs got a pass as it was something they had been saying would happen since CBT.

For the first issue; not going up to T10 was part of the main problem. WG screwed up with the IJN DD split. They released it prematurely with no T9 and T10. It was a legitimate rush job; no real gimmicks and very little differences in play style until Akizuki. As a result, the line didn't draw much interest and by their metrics, went relatively unplayed compared to lines that ended at T10. Now that it's been well over a year since the line was released, they need some way to get players reengaged into the line split. Because it's so late however, they're limited by what they can do. They can't suddenly drum up a brand new play style or gimmick for the IJN DD split after having settled it as it is for that long. They would have to redo and rebalance the entire line if they wanted to give it an actual gunboat play style, or just simply tack on a minor change that would mostly only affect the 3 actual gunships of the line. Thus, they went with simply buffing the IJN 10cm guns. It works, and it makes the Kitakaze and Harugumo sufficiently enticing to play.

The second issue; not having a real unique play style or element from the original line. This one is what contributed to the other half of the issue with the IJN DD split, as well as the entire VMF split. In the IJN DD split's case, there simply wasn't much difference between Minekaze, Hatsuharu, and Shiratsuyu from the regular IJN DD line, and for some, were confused as to why Mutsuki and Fubuki were part of the torpedo line when Minekaze did the torpedo thing better. Heck, when it first came out, the IJN DD split had better torpedo boating capability with the quick-reload TRB originally being separate, before WG changed it so that it shares a slot with smoke. Only Akizuki was the real gunship of the new line.

Basically, WG shot themselves in the foot with the IJN DD split, which locked them into that overall setup, and can only make minor changes to sell Kitakaze and Harugumo without resorting to redoing the line again in order to give it a gimmick. It's almost the same thing as the buffs the second VMF DD line got to try and entice more players to go up it (though WG outright blasted off their foot since that line's T10 is competing with Khab).


As a bit of an aside, the only reasonable way that WG could have made the IJN DD split enticing without resorting to buffing the 10cm DPs and still keeping it relatively vanilla is if WG instead used the experimental powered or semi-powered 127mm late war 12.7cm Type 1/5 on the T10 instead, as a slightly larger Kitakaze but with 4x2 127mm guns and just giving the T8-T10 a separate AADF consumable. However, WG is probably saving that gun for another future IJN DD split (say a 3-4 ship mini-split), since they didn't use it here, and they clearly don't want to give the AA escort destroyers an actual AA-boosting consumable (nevermind the fact that the VMF DD line split got one).

But an 8 gun Destroyer at T8 really isn't enticing enough?!  Or T9?!  OR a literal FIVE TURRETED Destroyer?!  That's why I felt what you wrote felt insulting (again, I'm not mad, just how it sounds in my head), from a developer's perspective.  There is no other ship like it!  There...is...nothing...like...it!  And who the hell are these people to bash WG about a Destroyer gun boat line when the majority haven't even put forth their ideas for gun boats, huh?!  Damn, it's so unfair.  Yes I do remember everything you said about one line split having identity issues, I agree with the confusing concept problem.  I'm not advocating WG was in the right by rushing this job, but what coooould have gone into those tiers, I seriously wonder.  I'm sure the answer's out there with player-made tech trees, but damn.  NOW we have Destroyers that can bring the highest level of BBs to it's knees with the click of a button and don't tell me the high level player is going to choose AA skills, Secondary skills (why?), or Survival skills over raw power.  If it wasn't the case, I wouldn't constantly choose Tank/Healer in every MMORPG I've tried!

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*wanders in coffee in hand at 7am on the west coast*

Well I managed what 4 down votes on the original post?  OUT STANDING!. WHat.. I should be hanging my head on shame.  You you think?

You teach people how to think by challenging them and their preconceived notion.. their "prejudices"  My old High School civics teacher from 45 years ago would be pleased to know I learned something from him after all.

Odds are really good if your down voting you are actually reading it!  And if you post, your thinking about it.  And when you think about it, that's when you learn new things, find new thoughts, and find new ways!  If this were a popularity contest to me my posts would be worded differently.   And respect to all of you, but that is not a game I play.   My real feeling on my "community standing" is. "oh, that's nice that is it positive over all."   

So subject at hand.  Some good stuff here!  Really is.   

And related issues, so I'm sure noticed the upcoming test patch.. and that it's part one, I seek consolation over the fact I am personally going to have to wait at least (part one, so assume part 2, 14 days, plus one day...mutter mutter mutter) 15 to 22 days before I get to play with the Kitakaze and Harugumo...

Wargaming you dirty stinking miserable rotten um um.. running out of not naughty words here..I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED!

Give Me My IJN Gun Boat Tier IX and X DD Now..!  Don't make me go all South Park Cartman on yer butt!

Honestly though I don't like it that the games mechanics are constantly changing.. It wears, Its get old, and it's a distraction.  I want the dev making ships, making maps, making better AI.  I want them NOT paying attention to post like I saw on the forums yesterday/day before where some person was pushing for fancy (ie:gold) ammo.  As if we don't have sufficient issues now.     I want shineys to play with and I want the differences between line to be subtle and small. and NOT have this game turn into a electronic clone of Wizards of the Coasts Victory At Sea collectable Naval Miniatures  (umm really kinda cool if you've never seen them.  Game it's self I believe is now out of print but distro have thousands of booster packs still warehoused, check around!)

I note that we actually get charged for ammo consumption, but when you consider that we have an endless supply of ammo (or if we don't it'll be news to me because I've never run out of ammo even i AKizuki where I know I have fired more rounds in a match then that ship carried historically of all types Anti Air and Anti Surface.  Which brings up another point..  Why are we even paying for ammo expenditure?  And for that matter, why do we even have "silver"  After 2 years going on 3 of live play it seem to be a quite unnecessary level of complication.   If it gets in the way of getting ships that cannot be incorporated into the XP earning and spending system then get rid of it.  For that matter why not have us spending XP for signals..  I got a Fuso with over 2 million XP accrued on it, I am never going to use that XP for anything, so give me something to use it on!   I have threw money at the game to get doubloons there is not a single free XP ship I would not be able to get right now. 

 

OH NO coffee's empty off to kitchen with me.. see you next time!

Warlord sends

 

  

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On 7/30/2018 at 5:30 PM, b101uk said:

for gimmicks, why not remove HE, only give them SAP and AA, if you pick the AA shell type your damage vs. aircraft goes up, like a weak AA defensive fire consumable, but your ship damage goes down.

 

 

I like that thought.  And I happen to think it would improve the game by forcing player to start thinking more tactically.

It would be absolutely real world realistic by far.   Getting rid of HE entirely... um  yea I actually like the idea even if it means when I am driving my IJN gun boats that I may be doing little or nothing to a target until I get at a better range or a better aspect.  I'd actually have to know my shell penetration values for range, angle, and armor type (Krupp or face hardened etc) if I want to get optimal use out of my guns.   Something I do need to keep in mind when playing a full on naval sim such as "Jutland" or "Distant Guns"

Now where was I?  Ah yea, more coffee...

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The new RN DD's are incredibly disappointing. I was hoping for something fresh and new and instead we got the same old that every other DD line already does. 

I was so excited to play RN DD's, it was the next line i was truly looking forward to grinding. But now? No thanks there is nothing exciting about them. 

Same issues as other DD's, only has a niche for hunting other DD's. Another variation of a DD hunter / knife fighter. 

 

Nosters video about RN DD's was absolutely on point , they are incredibly 

 

BORING 

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