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thepingman

Pondering difficulty in balancing carrier compare to other game

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The title should've make some of you correctly guess that I'm comparing CV of this game with Navyfield's one. I've been there about ten years ago when it's still the only MMO ship game, quit shortly after they released submarines. I still remembered fondly the time when my brother asked me to kitted out my Kitakami and nuked his Lion with 40 torps in Training match because he got into an argument with forum keyboard warriors over min-maxing a ship to survive "Wall of skill" and CV's torpedo bombers back then. 

Anyway, back to the topic, I'm by no mean expert in game design and I won't deny I'm quite new to this game and thus still learning, but nonetheless found something that have been bugging me for a while now since I got Hosho. I found the experience in WoWS CV isn't very enjoyable despite control is largely the same as Navyfield, minus the manual drop.

After a while I realized that I missed Navyfield's plane loadout customization.

If I want to give an example how that translate to WoWS term; take Hosho for example, in WoWS it has 1/0/2 (Fighter/Bomber/Torpedo Bomber) squadron set and 8/0/12 planes total, in Navyfield they'll give you 3 blank squadron slots and 24 plane slots and let you config it however you want; want 1/0/2 squadron but 24/0/0 plane loadout? done. Want to go all out and 0/0/3 squadron with 0/0/24 planes? if you can tolerate your teammate screaming for fighter cover all game then, sure, why not.

I still remember when I run 4/0/2 squadron on Navyfield's Hiryu with 60/0/12 plane loadout, quite fun shooting down scout planes and any CV attack runs back then. Sometime I even go for 72/0/0 just for kick, I guess the reason I'm currently aiming for Hiryu in WoWS because of nostalgia.

I know that this kind of freedom configuration would be a nightmare to balance, but seeing many discussion topics around here make me wonder if it really that much worse than what WG is currently implementing and if there's anything I missed that make CV in Navyfield worked instead of a quagmire of game balance as it's been in WoWS to this day? That game can have up to 6 CVs per match and it's not this badly complained.

That's all I want to discuss. Thank you.

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One thing I can suggest to get a feel for this game would be to watch the WOWS Developer's Diaries.  They started making those from when the game started almost three years ago and they are easiest to find on youtube.  You can follow the game's development from prior to release.  Not sure if this will help you understand WOWS and be able to compare the differences with the other game.  You can also see how they have adjusted their plans over time.  Here's the first one from 5/27/2014:

 

#2, Class-by-Class:

Spoiler

 

 

#3, Aircraft Carriers

Spoiler

 

 

#13, The First Anniversary (they discuss how they had to reevaluate their original plans - from realism to arcade):

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by ExploratorOne
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@thepingman Comparing WoWs CV operations with any other game is not needed at all. Another games approach has only one basic difference and that is simply that it is different. CVs here have been complained about from the start mainly by those who do not like being the target of a CV attack. CV players however look for possible changes to make the higher tier extreme multitasking flight management a bit easier to deal with!

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The CV rework should be done any year now ... 

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CVs in NavyField we’re balanced by controllable AA that allowed you to literally delete aircraft, and a set of bulge armor that allowed you to nullify torpedo bomber damage.

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2 hours ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

@thepingman Comparing WoWs CV operations with any other game is not needed at all. Another games approach has only one basic difference and that is simply that it is different. CVs here have been complained about from the start mainly by those who do not like being the target of a CV attack. CV players however look for possible changes to make the higher tier extreme multitasking flight management a bit easier to deal with!

Lol I must say though I do get a laugh over the time’s somebody says it is too hard to keep track of all their CV squadrons . Reason I find it amusing I see I have played Star Wars Empire at War with Expansion pack and Vader’s Super Star Destroyer alone can spit out about 50 Starfighter squadrons or so of various types, and then you add in escort Star Destroyers and their  starfighter squadrons, plus having to order the capital ships around... it gets to be a lot.

Then you also have to keep track of enemy ships and starfighters and if you happen to have a large space station in the area as well...  An older game, but one I still power up my old laptop from time to time and play. :Smile_Default:

You can see how this can add up to a lot going on lol. So CV squadron management seems easy, especially when enemy CV player is not always up to level of difficulty as the hard difficulty settings of the Star Wars game, AI in that game could be highly intelligent and creative which kept the game fun.

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22 hours ago, ExploratorOne said:

 

It's informative on their thought process but nothing relevant to the discussion, but thanks nonetheless.

 

18 hours ago, Compassghost said:

CVs in NavyField we’re balanced by controllable AA that allowed you to literally delete aircraft, and a set of bulge armor that allowed you to nullify torpedo bomber damage.

But that come at a cost of Navyfield's automatic AA is just confetti light show that only shoot down planes flying just meters above deck, essentially rendered them useless. And forcing BB players to learn how to man his AA gun or get deleted.

However, after mucking around a little bit more on Youtube, I found this video:

 

I just noticed many said that "aircraft HP" and "AA dps" isn't a HP and damage at all, it's more like "Defense" and "Attack" stats from units in Sid Meier's Civilization 1 and 2. It's essentially the same mechanic!

If this's true, Effectively, that mean each aircraft actually has 1 HP, and dice roll when they fight or get in AA range to determine whether they get shot down or not at a specific interval?

I... guess this's where the problem is, is it not? Lack of control from players and subjected to the whim of RNG.

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RNGesus Mary and Joseph , that explains alot mate , thank you so much , especially the part about strafing being RNG as well. 

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On 7/30/2018 at 3:34 AM, thepingman said:

The title should've make some of you correctly guess that I'm comparing CV of this game with Navyfield's one.

As a 'NF vet' myself and a NF CBTer one at that, I can say for certain that comparing NF to WoWs will only give you a headache. The WoWs devs played NF and they wanted WoWs to be simple, trying to take whats probably the most complicated warship and trying to make it work well in an overly simplified format such as WoWs is very difficult. Their desire for a lot of nationality traits makes balancing difficult, something that wasnt a problem with NF.

Carriers in NF were about spotting and air control, the CV with the better/most fighters won. I ran 5 fighter pilots on my NF carriers.

WoWs is built around the premise that all ships are equal for battle influence, unlike NF where you advanced through DD to cruisers to BB's/CV's. CV's have no equal, they are good at everything, other than taking punishment there isnt one thing they are bad at.

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While I'm not sure about the relative difficulty of balancing CVs compared to other classes, I will say that I do believe quite a few of the balance problems CVs experienced have leaked into the balance of other classes as well. The BB overpopulation that results from a shortage of CV players probably spills over into the CA and DD populations as well.

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On 7/30/2018 at 3:57 PM, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Lol I must say though I do get a laugh over the time’s somebody says it is too hard to keep track of all their CV squadrons . Reason I find it amusing I see I have played Star Wars Empire at War with Expansion pack and Vader’s Super Star Destroyer alone can spit out about 50 Starfighter squadrons or so of various types, and then you add in escort Star Destroyers and their  starfighter squadrons, plus having to order the capital ships around... it gets to be a lot.

Then you also have to keep track of enemy ships and starfighters and if you happen to have a large space station in the area as well...  An older game, but one I still power up my old laptop from time to time and play

Technically, the Executor can spit out an unlimited number of units, it's just that the game caps the number of possible units at any point on the battlefield at 50 (or until its hanger is destroyed). Most players that I see group up their different units (interceptors, bombers, frigates, etc.) into different groups to simplify control and play accordingly.

It's interesting to watch how the game balanced the different factions' starfighters: the Empire gets a lot of (but usually limited amount of) mostly crummy units for free, while the Rebellion and Consortium get better fighters (and theoretically a much greater amount) in exchange for said fighters taking up space in the unit limit and having to be manually dropped into battle.

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