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NeutralState

RN DD, Give Extremely Short But Potent Engine Boost

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Give RN high tier DDs a short duration (20 - 30 secs) but extremely powerful engine boost. The main goal here is not to raise the top speed by much, but to maintain engine power. The special RN DD engine boost should ensure RN DDs do not lose speed when doing maneuvers and drastically shorten acceleration.

 

I want to see RN DD weaving through large number of BBs firing torps single shot left and right, sinking all of them.

Edited by NeutralState

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They have hydo.

They have IJN levels of concealment.

They have killer guns.

Just no.

What they need is Russian laser beams.

Edited by Prothall

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they clearly need 0.1km detection 100knot torpedoes that hit CVs only.

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3 minutes ago, Prothall said:

They have hydo.

They have IJN levels of concealment.

They have killer guns.

Just no.

What they need is Russian laser beams.

Their hydro is awful. Stop pretending like it's KMS DD average-to OP-Hydro. It's extremely weak/subpar (even for normal hydro) and the Tier VI's is borderline fluff, it's so impotent. To make it worse, Acasta and down don't get Hydro(or any of the top-tier DDs in the line's other major strengths besides concealment and the situational, afterthought torps.) at all, but they DO get the weaknesses of Jutland and Daring(super slow, no speed boost, torpedoes aren't good and don't have narrow spread, but wide, unlike RN CLs)

 

Killer guns? What are you smoking? It takes until Tier IX for their guns to shine, and they never get good torps. Hydro can be an advantage, but only if it's good, and just like on Duke of York, it's fluff mostly. It doesn't fit the playstyle, and even if it did, it's too garbage to warrant its use, but of course you can only slot it and it alone, nothing else in that slot.

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Is WG trolling DD mains with this line? I see no redeemable qualities in these ships. They are not DDs; they are mini-Worcesters and I already have one of those. Slow speed, bad torp angles, ****** wide or single lauch torp spreads, useless hydro, floaty shells, no speed boost and defensive DD what? The last thing we need is more DDs that can’t play the objective. Smoke gun boating died with the mass proliferation of radar. WG stop forcing an outclassed playstyle on the RN DD line, they deserve better. 

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In all honesty, RN DD concealment is OP and quite frankly stupid/a terrible mistake. But that doesn't mean that everything else at every tier is necessarily OP. The guns are gudbotes in and of themselves (if and only if they are set up correctly)at tiers IX and X. But this does not appear to be true of anything at Tier VIII(Lightning) or below. In fact, they appear to have guns on par with Gallant.

The hydro, as I said before, is the most useless, worthless, trashy, stinky, awful, trollish(in a bad way) unappreciated, unwanted, hated, despised utter piece of garbage consumable in the entire game at Tier VI on Icarus, and is only "meh/so-so" at Tier X on Daring.

 

The speed is universally terrible.

 

The torpedoes are not good, either. Having only single and wide is a HUGE disadvantage/time waster. Single and narrow(RN CLs) was and is the better, more balanced option. It's not like WG didn't know this, either. Let's be honest: what harm would it do to give, say, Daring for an example, single and NARROW spreads? Heaven forbid that RN DDs ACTUALLY HAVE USABLE/PRACTICAL TORPEDOES! It's not like the torpedoes have insane range or insane damage or insane concealment or insane speed or insane reload, because all of those things are always either standard or sub-par, depending on the stat, at all tiers in the RN DD line.

 

and the AA is trash.

 

What more am I missing?

 

The concealment is OP(it really shouldn't be that good) but it seems to be the only thing here that is OP

 

The guns can be OP at Tiers IX and X, but only if they are built right(and they come with their own built-in downsides), and the rest have decidedly balanced/meh guns.

 

The torpedoes are universally average or sub-par.

 

The AA is universally poor.

 

the speed and handling are universally poor

 

The hydro starts out non-existent at Tier II-V, is unusable at Tier VI and grows only to "eh"(questionable) strength by Tier X.

 

What besides the concealment is universally good about the line?

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11 minutes ago, Shinzon1 said:

Is WG trolling DD mains with this line? I see no redeemable qualities in these ships. They are not DDs; they are mini-Worcesters and I already have one of those. Slow speed, bad torp angles, stupid wide or single lauch torp spreads, useless hydro, floaty shells, no speed boost and defensive DD what? The last thing we need is more DDs that can’t play the objective. Smoke gun boating died with the mass proliferation of radar. WG stop forcing an outclassed playstyle on the RN DD line, they deserve better. 

and the majority of the line don't even get Jutland and Daring's OP 114s, either.:Smile_sceptic: So, only the Tier IX's and the X's guns are actually worth discussing.

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The initial release with bad hydro and engine boost in the same slot has been replaced with only bad hydro available.

WG want you to take your medicine and like it. I regret commenting that I'd certainly take the engine boost over the hydro where i could. As gimmicks go inflicting 'you have no engine boost but no compensation' on the T2-T5 is off.

The mid-tier hydro is dire. 2.7km ship spotting on Jervis but your smoke firing detection is 2.6km? Useless. 1.9km torpedo spotting? occasionally nice, but there are 1.6km detection torpedoes you'd pick up at 2km if you took Vigilance - and Vigilance is hardly a 'must have' destroyer pick.

 

There are lots of ways WG could try and develop a bit more flavor -

  • Aft gun 360' turning. Ludicrously Jervis can't do it despite being the same class as Gadjah Mada, and Lightning looks like she should be able to but can't, plus others have unduly restricted angles, fix that, maybe see if it can be extended, it's very 'attack' oriented.
  • Some variation of speed boost, long duration but low impact, short/sharp, it's a very underutilized mechanic, potentially at the expense of the hydro altogether
  • Some variation of hydro if you insist on it, perhaps play more toward the anti-torpedo at the further expense of ship-spotting or vice-versa
  • Look at some kind of special AP shells - potentially at the expense of HE (drop HE alpha?) but maybe with better fuses/bounce angles rather than the high damage of the German trait
  • Some in-built handling advantage, similar but not as extreme as the RN CL
  • Concealment could be reduced in some cases as necessary (not for instance on Icarus or Jervis, which is again also worse than Gadjah for no reason... while Lightning is outgunned and out-torped by Benson) but on the 5.7km Daring

Ultimately being balanced gun/torpedo boats with floaty ballistics and (at high tiers) high ROF the RN destroyers are going to end up inevitably similar to the USN models, forcing a 'defensive destroyer' playstyle on them is not a way around that. At high tiers they have a bit more DPM and fire chance, but need IFHE and the peak RN torpedo is markedly inferior to the T9 Fletcher model. That can be balanced.

Edited by mofton

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I do struggle to justify grinding these ships, honestly. They all just seem so...bad. I'll likely go down the line at some point but I am in no hurry based on preliminary tests, only really being somewhat excited about the Daring. Everything else in between is very off-putting.

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3 hours ago, NeutralState said:

Give RN high tier DDs a short duration (20 - 30 secs) but extremely powerful engine boost. The main goal here is not to raise the top speed by much, but to maintain engine power. The special RN DD engine boost should ensure RN DDs do not lose speed when doing maneuvers and drastically shorten acceleration.

 

I want to see RN DD weaving through large number of BBs firing torps single shot left and right, sinking all of them.

lol. Let's just give them the french engine boosters why don't we? They already have hydro and single fire torps. 

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RN DD line seems meh against other DD but it will still be a pain to deal with for Shima player.

RN DD have the lowest CD on guns (I think it has 2.5 sec without BFT or the 3 million upgrade. For reminder, Akizuki has 2.7 sec with BFT).

RN DD actually have decent fire chance for a DD with rapid fire gun.

RN DD have stupidly strong concealment.

RN DD have hydro. Yes it's not German hydro, but it still a hydro. Still  It will allow you to spot behind island, spot torps, spot behind smoke. No matter how "garbage" it is, for a DD, it still very usefull.

 

From a Shima perspective it is another pain to deal with and it's not like this ship isn't already in a rough position against other DD. From non IJN DD perspective, it maybe just annoying but Z-52 can use his hydro to equalize spotting range, Gearing can still beat it in knife fight, Yueyang probably and Khaba...Well it's a Khaba.. 

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These ships are works in progress, and some of you are framing your complaints as if this is their final form. 

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20 hours ago, SeraphicRadiance said:

I do struggle to justify grinding these ships, honestly. They all just seem so...bad. I'll likely go down the line at some point but I am in no hurry based on preliminary tests, only really being somewhat excited about the Daring. Everything else in between is very off-putting.

Yes. I am hoping I am wrong in that perception, but I am not even saving FXP for this line....

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17 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

These ships are works in progress, and some of you are framing your complaints as if this is their final form. 

People always say this. Feedback is important, otherwise how does WG know what the player perception is?

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24 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

People always say this. Feedback is important, otherwise how does WG know what the player perception is?

Of course feedback is important, but the tone of what I'm seeing here is as if it's fixed in stone, e.g.

 

31 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Yes. I am hoping I am wrong in that perception, but I am not even saving FXP for this line....

Where's the "Unless"?

 

At least this...

5 hours ago, SeraphicRadiance said:

I do struggle to justify grinding these ships, honestly. They all just seem so...bad. I'll likely go down the line at some point but I am in no hurry based on preliminary tests, only really being somewhat excited about the Daring. Everything else in between is very off-putting.

...has a conditional sense about it.

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8 hours ago, legoboy0401 said:

The hydro, as I said before, is the most useless, worthless, trashy, stinky, awful, trollish(in a bad way) unappreciated, unwanted, hated, despised utter piece of garbage consumable in the entire game at Tier VI on Icarus, and is only "meh/so-so" at Tier X on Daring.

 

 

The hydro isn't designed for ship fighting. It is designed to make sure you never take a torpedo.

It is short in range but very long in duration. You bump into another DD and torpedoes are taken out of the fight (at least taking them).

You have extremely rapid firing guns that will make any straight up gun fight at short range  an easy win.

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9 hours ago, legoboy0401 said:

Their hydro is awful. Stop pretending like it's KMS DD average-to OP-Hydro. It's extremely weak/subpar (even for normal hydro) and the Tier VI's is borderline fluff, it's so impotent. To make it worse, Acasta and down don't get Hydro(or any of the top-tier DDs in the line's other major strengths besides concealment and the situational, afterthought torps.) at all, but they DO get the weaknesses of Jutland and Daring(super slow, no speed boost, torpedoes aren't good and don't have narrow spread, but wide, unlike RN CLs)

 

Killer guns? What are you smoking? It takes until Tier IX for their guns to shine, and they never get good torps. Hydro can be an advantage, but only if it's good, and just like on Duke of York, it's fluff mostly. It doesn't fit the playstyle, and even if it did, it's too garbage to warrant its use, but of course you can only slot it and it alone, nothing else in that slot.

Truth^^

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2 hours ago, vonluckner said:

Why would you play the Daring over the Yue Yang?

The tools it has are questionable in potency, and its weaknesses are ones that cripple it. This ship is strategically worthless compared to Yueyang in its current state, and exists as a bastardized Gearing/Z-52 that isn't as good as either.

I'm sorry but this ship needs speed boost. The ship is just too slow to exist. I'd rather just make a gunboat Z-52. I'd argue it needs a little more than that if you're going to keep the torpedoes that awful as well.

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4 hours ago, vonluckner said:

Why would you play the Daring over the Yue Yang?

That's the only reason WG might make a change is if people are really certain there is no benefit to the line. If people don't get the itch to run up to Daring like WG always hopes for with a new T10, they will buff it until people feel compelled to blow through some FXP for it.

 

3 hours ago, Prothall said:

The hydro isn't designed for ship fighting. It is designed to make sure you never take a torpedo.

It is short in range but very long in duration. You bump into another DD and torpedoes are taken out of the fight (at least taking them).

You have extremely rapid firing guns that will make any straight up gun fight at short range  an easy win.

You're going to have to have good guns up close because you won't be running from fights, that's for sure.

I just am in a place where I cannot see what this line will truly offer over what other DD currently offer. Like Von said, do you need Daring if you have YY? Up close gunboat DD isn't exactly going to go over all that well at high tiers I think in our current version of the game.

Gunboats need to fire guns and guns have a bloom that light you up, concealment be damned. You could have 1km concealment but it's useless when your guns are going off.

The 114s will need IFHE too, so there goes those 4 points.

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However the final version breaks out, it appears it will be a very gimmicky (quirky, eccentric?) line.

I wonder how many people are going to want to grind that?

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When it drops into the game give it a couple of months we will see what it needs then.

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