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Spartias

Clan Battles Variety

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Question: Due to the tightening of MM in Clan Battles, has the variety of teams that one consistently plays against dwindled to such a small pool that teams across the board are only facing the same teams over and over again?

 

I'm not in favor of swapping up tiers for clan battles. T10 is so well balanced. We do however need to relax the MM restrictions that were put in place this season. It has become so brutally repetitive in who we play that it's sucking the fun out of it all. Without the variety, it's become a game of back and forth. We all know each other so well at this point, we all just keep winning and losing pretty evenly. Without being able to see a larger variety of playstyles, it's become such drudgery. The population seems to still be there. When I look at the list of teams I don't seem surprised at how many or few there are. I just never see 99% of those teams. It's just the same ones over and over again.

 

Am I delusional? Am I right? 

 

Idk... but I do know that I'm just so bored of the same fights over and over again. Beat them, then lose to them, vice versa, back and forth... same teams... forever and ever... over and over.

 

No more "Oh snap it's those high end guys we never see!" Or the "Oh wow we never see this group comp! They're gale? Craaaaaap... we really can't lose to these guys..."

 

No more excitement... just drudgery.

Edited by Spartias
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your right you tend to be facing the same teams over and over again. Right now in high typhoon we are dealing with about 2-5 min q times for a game and are facing only about 6 other clans.

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ya it seems a bit too dead right now.....

here at low score typhoon, last night out of 12 games we ran into 1 clan three times, and another clan twice

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From AFW did some supremecy league and clan battles from first season.  My issues are it’s tier x.  Most have the same strategy over and over.  I am a damn good player but I won’t win against a few of the top clans.  In the end it wasn’t fun.  Not like the quick elimantion of league.  Clan battles feels like a ranked grind.  I haven’t touched it season two or three for the fact it’s still tier X.  It offers little variety.  And you guys pointed out the same people will continue to be on top.  Random play least offers variety and a surprise.  There’s never a surprise in CB.  Most maps have a very stagnant strategy.   

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The thing about CBs is the meta seems to really shift around it’s not staying the same.

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3 minutes ago, Shigure_DD said:

The thing about CBs is the meta seems to really shift around it’s not staying the same.

 

The meta has shifted several times this season alone. That's been fantastic. The ship and strategy meta game has been great.

 

But seeing the same clans nonstop... there gets to be a point where I just already know which individual players in clans I should watch out for... what they tend to do... which is okay... the first 20 times you've seen it... 

 

Throwing us up against the occasional clan that could really wreck us... or we could really wreck... spiced things up. Plus... there's an excitement about facing a super high team, think of all the points you could get if you do pull off an upset! And the fear of screwing up and losing to a low end team... I miss both of those sensations.

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That’s the thing with the MM right now in CBs this is the skill based MM everyone seems to want for randoms.

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2 hours ago, Spartias said:

Question: Due to the tightening of MM in Clan Battles, has the variety of teams that one consistently plays against dwindled to such a small pool that teams across the board are only facing the same teams over and over again?

I'm not in favor of swapping up tiers for clan battles. T10 is so well balanced. We do however need to relax the MM restrictions that were put in place this season. It has become so brutally repetitive in who we play that it's sucking the fun out of it all. Without the variety, it's become a game of back and forth. We all know each other so well at this point, we all just keep winning and losing pretty evenly. Without being able to see a larger variety of playstyles, it's become such drudgery. The population seems to still be there. When I look at the list of teams I don't seem surprised at how many or few there are. I just never see 99% of those teams. It's just the same ones over and over again.

Am I delusional? Am I right? 

Idk... but I do know that I'm just so bored of the same fights over and over again. Beat them, then lose to them, vice versa, back and forth... same teams... forever and ever... over and over.

No more "Oh snap it's those high end guys we never see!" Or the "Oh wow we never see this group comp! They're gale? Craaaaaap... we really can't lose to these guys..."

No more excitement... just drudgery.

So... you want to club some seals because you're bored of having to face the small number of good clans.

Spartias, I don't mean to sound harsh, but cry me a river.  While my clan isn't a clan of relative noobs playing the bottom leagues for yucks, I think that I can tell you what their reaction to this would be.  I think that the last thing they want to see is some unicums clans seal clubbing in clan battles because they're "bored" of having to face each other later in the CB season when they've climbed up to typhoon or hurricane leagues.

It seems to me that you're paying the price for your success in having to play other successful clans.  

Edited by Crucis

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6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

So... you want to club some seals because you're bored of having to face the small number of good clans.

Spartias, I don't mean to sound harsh, but cry me a river.  While my clan isn't a clan of relative noobs playing the bottom leagues for yucks, I think that I can tell you what their reaction to this would be.  I think that the last thing they want to see is some unicums clans seal clubbing in clan battles because they're "bored" of having to face each other later in the CB season when they've climbed up to typhoon or hurricane leagues.

It seems to me that you're paying the price for your success in having to play other successful clans.  

Heh, I figured I'd get this response. You're missing the point, or just don't want to see it. Past seasons, we all saw a far larger variety. Yes, we saw lower end clans and beat them. Did we like it? Not really. We usually groaned about it because... what if we lose? There was so much pressure to not lose against them, and we did lose against a bunch of them. The meta was so different. And if we (likely) won? Whooped dee doo... whopping 7 points gained. Likewise we never really cared if we ran into a hurricane team. Oh ouch... they wrecked us... and we didnt feel like we stood much of a chance. Whooped dee doo... whopping 7 points lost.

 

The point isn't about clubbing or getting clubbed... it's about the population as a whole actually mattering. It's just so stinking dull this season.

 

Variety is the spice of life. Never knowing what we had in store for us kept CB's very exciting from the start of season one to the end of season two. Being the same tier and ships didn't matter. The variety of players, clans, lineups, and strategies always kept you on your toes. Now it's merely a grind. Not even a grind like ranked, where you're going to see a lot of different players. It's just the same... over and over again.

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8 minutes ago, Spartias said:

Heh, I figured I'd get this response. You're missing the point, or just don't want to see it. Past seasons, we all saw a far larger variety. Yes, we saw lower end clans and beat them. Did we like it? Not really. We usually groaned about it because... what if we lose? There was so much pressure to not lose against them, and we did lose against a bunch of them. The meta was so different. And if we (likely) won? Whooped dee doo... whopping 7 points gained. Likewise we never really cared if we ran into a hurricane team. Oh ouch... they wrecked us... and we didnt feel like we stood much of a chance. Whooped dee doo... whopping 7 points lost.

The point isn't about clubbing or getting clubbed... it's about the population as a whole actually mattering. It's just so stinking dull this season.

Variety is the spice of life. Never knowing what we had in store for us kept CB's very exciting from the start of season one to the end of season two. Being the same tier and ships didn't matter. The variety of players, clans, lineups, and strategies always kept you on your toes. Now it's merely a grind. Not even a grind like ranked, where you're going to see a lot of different players. It's just the same... over and over again.

Oh, I got your point.  I just don't buy it.  People in lesser clans don't like getting curb stomped by unicum clans.  And I think they'd like it even less if it was happening just so that the unicum clans got the joy of a little more variety.

I'd rather see more variety in the maps used for CBs.  I noticed that Islands of Ice was removed from the CBs rotation, or at least my clan hasn't see it this season that I can recall, and I fight in almost all of our battles.  But I don't recall there being a map to replace Islands of Ice in the CBs rotation.

Another thing they could do, though it would be a bit of a change is to play different ship tiers on different nights, for the sake of variety.  Maybe play tier 8's on W and Th, while playing tier 10's on Sat and Sun.

 

One thing that I might agree with you is that CBs does seem like a grind.  You can't afford to lose any nights if your goal is to reach Typhoon or even hurricane leagues.  We lost Wed and Thursday this week due to lack of players.  (Kind of hard when some of your Alpha team players happen to be working nights in a given week.) We might make it to Typhoon league this season, but I'm not at all sure that we'll have enough time to complete the Typhoon league mission.  Oh well.

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7 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Another thing they could do, though it would be a bit of a change is to play different ship tiers on different nights, for the sake of variety.  Maybe play tier 8's on W and Th, while playing tier 10's on Sat and Sun.

Why not just make it so you can play any ship tier you want and you'll get matched against any mix of tiers the other team picked

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25 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Oh, I got your point.  I just don't buy it.  People in lesser clans don't like getting curb stomped by unicum clans.  And I think they'd like it even less if it was happening just so that the unicum clans got the joy of a little more variety.

I'd rather see more variety in the maps used for CBs.  I noticed that Islands of Ice was removed from the CBs rotation, or at least my clan hasn't see it this season that I can recall, and I fight in almost all of our battles.  But I don't recall there being a map to replace Islands of Ice in the CBs rotation.

Another thing they could do, though it would be a bit of a change is to play different ship tiers on different nights, for the sake of variety.  Maybe play tier 8's on W and Th, while playing tier 10's on Sat and Sun.

 

One thing that I might agree with you is that CBs does seem like a grind.  You can't afford to lose any nights if your goal is to reach Typhoon or even hurricane leagues.  We lost Wed and Thursday this week due to lack of players.  (Kind of hard when some of your Alpha team players happen to be working nights in a given week.) We might make it to Typhoon league this season, but I'm not at all sure that we'll have enough time to complete the Typhoon league mission.  Oh well.

Wait... are you seriously under the impression that I'm in a unicum clan? I mean... we have good players that are very dedicated and are extremely hard workers... but we are definitely nowhere near being a unicum clan. If anything, we're a straight up social clan.

 

Plus, switching up tiers is a bad idea. T10 is the most balanced of all the tiers. Also, if you start tossing in multiple tiers in a single season you'll be hurting casual clans even more as they won't have enough high level captains for all of their ships in the multiple different tiers.

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Personally, I'm having a lot of fun. Even at the top end, there seems to be a lot more variety this season in terms of comps and strategies. I feel like the last season was a bit stale in terms of team compositions, but now with a lot of T10 ships reworked, we're seeing a bit more variety. That's my own personal experience anyway.

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2 hours ago, Spartias said:

are you seriously under the impression that I'm in a unicum clan?

I can't speak for the rest of your clan but you have a 65% win rate...unless this is a reroll account you personally are the exact definition of a unicum...I sure as [edited] don't wanna run into you in a CB.

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5 hours ago, Crucis said:

Oh, I got your point.  I just don't buy it.  People in lesser clans don't like getting curb stomped by unicum clans.  And I think they'd like it even less if it was happening just so that the unicum clans got the joy of a little more variety.

I'd rather see more variety in the maps used for CBs.  I noticed that Islands of Ice was removed from the CBs rotation, or at least my clan hasn't see it this season that I can recall, and I fight in almost all of our battles.  But I don't recall there being a map to replace Islands of Ice in the CBs rotation.

Another thing they could do, though it would be a bit of a change is to play different ship tiers on different nights, for the sake of variety.  Maybe play tier 8's on W and Th, while playing tier 10's on Sat and Sun.

 

One thing that I might agree with you is that CBs does seem like a grind.  You can't afford to lose any nights if your goal is to reach Typhoon or even hurricane leagues.  We lost Wed and Thursday this week due to lack of players.  (Kind of hard when some of your Alpha team players happen to be working nights in a given week.) We might make it to Typhoon league this season, but I'm not at all sure that we'll have enough time to complete the Typhoon league mission.  Oh well.

It’s the none unicum clans that throw some pretty different strategies and will win vs some of the top clans, it’s not always about getting rolled over it’s about leaning and getting better, and also having some fun along the way. 

 

I dont see CBs getting moved to t8 it would be nearly impossible to balance and would really shift back to a smoke meta(chapy/kutu), maybe t9.

 

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Seems to me the answer may be to add more variety of maps at top tier as well as modifying starting positions.  Adding maps and/number of capture areas adds more permutations to best strategies so even if you face the "same" team, strategies would change.  Maybe the developers could come up with some more challenging maps to tax the top tier teams so they will not become bored.

Maybe they could also randomize starting positions to some degree.  I am suggesting these changes for top tier only.  Us bottom feeders have plenty of challenges.

 

Soryu

 

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Personally, I think it's kinda fun to see some clans multiple times. Especially since our clan is sort of a spin off of another clan, we kinda have this epic rivalry. We've had about 3-4 battles with them this season. Also when we see other clans that we have fought before we can generally figure out what they are going to do since we know what they did last time. You can use it as an advantage!

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1 hour ago, Soryu007 said:

Seems to me the answer may be to add more variety of maps at top tier as well as modifying starting positions.  Adding maps and/number of capture areas adds more permutations to best strategies so even if you face the "same" team, strategies would change.  Maybe the developers could come up with some more challenging maps to tax the top tier teams so they will not become bored.

Maybe they could also randomize starting positions to some degree.  I am suggesting these changes for top tier only.  Us bottom feeders have plenty of challenges.

 

Soryu

 

Starting positions have been carefully chosen to keep maps balanced. There are good reasons why they are where they are.

 

They've added and rotated through different maps every season.

 

The meta has shifted constantly this season. None of this has been a problem. It's just the same people, over and over again. It makes it feel like Clan Battles has zero population. That's patently false, as a quick check shows, but that's how it feels. 

 

Just... so stale...

 

5 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

I can't speak for the rest of your clan but you have a 65% win rate...unless this is a reroll account you personally are the exact definition of a unicum...I sure as [edited] don't wanna run into you in a CB.

I'm the only one like that besides an actual reroll account of mine that I practice CV on. There's an EU CV main here too, but he doesn't play CB for obvious reasons. Noes, we're a social clan with a variety of players that are very willing to work very hard and practice a lot.

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Speaking from a clan that continues between Gale and Squall it would be nice to have the option of facing off a clan a few leagues above for the bigger payoff if a win is scored. Bring it on!

 

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13 minutes ago, Spartias said:

Starting positions have been carefully chosen to keep maps balanced. There are good reasons why they are where they are.

 

They've added and rotated through different maps every season.

 

The meta has shifted constantly this season. None of this has been a problem. It's just the same people, over and over again. It makes it feel like Clan Battles has zero population. That's patently false, as a quick check shows, but that's how it feels. 

 

Just... so stale...

At some point you have to face reality.  There are only so many teams at the top, its like a pyramid.  That is unlikely to change.  Therefore, the change needs to come from the maps or placements on the maps.  Yeah, I get it that starting locations are carefully selected, but maybe they should carefully select more starting positions which give the underdog team a slightly better chance "too make it more interesting for you".  Maybe they could alter the pay off points or penalties for winners/losers.  It would certainly be more fair than pairing the the top tier players with sub tier players.  

The second reality of the sub tier clans is they often field rental ships and less than 19 point captains.  Therefore, even before skill level is taken into account, the sub tier clans begin with a disadvantage.  Of course I understand "why" YOU do not want a marginally less advantageous starting position but instead would prefer to engage less talented and equipped clans.  It is kind of like having your cake and eating too.  

Sometimes there just are no solutions which can please everyone.

Soryu

 

 

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10 hours ago, Shigure_DD said:

That’s the thing with the MM right now in CBs this is the skill based MM everyone seems to want for randoms.

To me this is no different than R5 to 1 bracket, where you will see the same players over and over. I feel like a lot of clans have struggled with this new MM, personally I like it, my only gripe is near the end of the night, trying to get the last 1-2 games in the queue time can be a little long. 

I think WG will probably stick with this new MM for at least another CW season. I suspect they are happy not to have a lot of Hurricane teams, like last season. Now you can just roll the MM dice and club your way to the top, you have to fight tooth and nail against your equals or superiors to advance. 

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8 hours ago, Spartias said:

Wait... are you seriously under the impression that I'm in a unicum clan? I mean... we have good players that are very dedicated and are extremely hard workers... but we are definitely nowhere near being a unicum clan. If anything, we're a straight up social clan.

 

Plus, switching up tiers is a bad idea. T10 is the most balanced of all the tiers. Also, if you start tossing in multiple tiers in a single season you'll be hurting casual clans even more as they won't have enough high level captains for all of their ships in the multiple different tiers.

1.  Your personal stats say otherwise.

2. Hurting casual clans?  I was under the impression that casual players didn't like competition.  That's why they are CASUAL players in the first place.  If they're in clan battles for more than maybe a couple of games to see what it's like, they're not that casual.  As for not having enough high level captains, that's what premium ships are for!  :Smile_glasses:

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Given that my clan is up to seeing some opponents for their 6th or even 7th time this season, including multiple two times in a single night and a few 3 timers, I am forced to agree with you.  The balanced MM makes for more interesting games by and large, but yes it is getting boring.  My hope is that they do more than just open up worldwide ranking and sessions and make clan battles truly world-wide.

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3 hours ago, Shigure_DD said:

It’s the none unicum clans that throw some pretty different strategies and will win vs some of the top clans, it’s not always about getting rolled over it’s about leaning and getting better, and also having some fun along the way. 

 

I dont see CBs getting moved to t8 it would be nearly impossible to balance and would really shift back to a smoke meta(chapy/kutu), maybe t9.

 

Tier 9 will never be a good tier, at least in my book.  It's the tier at which I'm least likely to keep any ship, barring FXP premiums.  Even the ones that I have kept don't have captains for them.  The way I look at it, unless I'm playing a T9 FXP premium, I have little reason to play a tier 9 when I could be playing a tier 10.  So I just don't bother putting captains in them or bother remembering to do so.  Tier 8 is, in a way, in the same boat as tier 9, except that there are a lot more premium ships at that tier.

As for playing clans that are vastly better than your own, I get no joy out of it.  The only thing I learn is to hate getting curb stomped and hate WG for mixing unicums clans against those that aren't.  I can deal with it early in the season because all clans start at the same point, i.e. the bottom of the lowest league.  But the great clans will progress up the leagues pretty quickly, and things shake out so that you tend to play clans that are in shouting distance of your own talent level.

Push comes to shove, while I really am not trying to be harsh about what Spartias said in his initial post, I also don't have much if any sympathy for him either.  When a clan has progressed and is in the higher leagues, and one of them says that it's boring playing the same clans at their same talent level, what I'm hearing is that they want to play weaker clans that won't be as difficult to defeat, so that they can, presumably, advance more quickly through the clan battles related league missions.  

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