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needlenoses4

Shell straddling with a BB

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So I am running various BBs and I have found that my shells are landing both just short and just long for each salvo; might get 1 or two hits.  Tried changing the angle of my ship nosing at the target and away but same thing.  If I get 3 hits and a bounce in a salvo it is my lucky day.  Another thing; I see a lot of shells coming my way from ships out of sight and out of range.  I see them way out and turn into them a hard as I can and almost get straight on and a still get hit hard. Like are these mystery ghost ships mind readers.  I get lots of time to turn and alter speed to no avail most of the time.  Yikes.

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18 minutes ago, needlenoses4 said:

So I am running various BBs and I have found that my shells are landing both just short and just long for each salvo; might get 1 or two hits.  Tried changing the angle of my ship nosing at the target and away but same thing.  If I get 3 hits and a bounce in a salvo it is my lucky day.  Another thing; I see a lot of shells coming my way from ships out of sight and out of range.  I see them way out and turn into them a hard as I can and almost get straight on and a still get hit hard. Like are these mystery ghost ships mind readers.  I get lots of time to turn and alter speed to no avail most of the time.  Yikes.

Battleships do have more variance in their shells than cruisers, your most played class, so it would make sense that the dispersion is throwing you off.  As for shells hitting, battleships are much big and take a long time to respond to inputs.  I would recommend sailing at an angle between 90 and 65 degrees either to or away from enemies to minimize damage since dodging is difficult in a battleship.  I also will send you a PM shortly about something related.

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Shells landing on all sides of a target is normal in all tiers. Especially BB shells. Incoming shells from far off ships happen because a different player on their team is spotting you so their whole yeam can see you. You can't see them probably because there is terrain between you and them and they are shooting over it. That is also normal.

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Yes, it's also improperly done as well.  The concussive force from HE detonating near a ship can do damage just as a direct hit can.  But WG conveniently leaves that part out.

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4 hours ago, Blackgunner said:

Yes, it's also improperly done as well.  The concussive force from HE detonating near a ship can do damage just as a direct hit can.  But WG conveniently leaves that part out.

Actually, this is included in game.  When a large caliber HE shell hits near a ship, it deals damage to module and the magazine, meaning it can knock out things like engine, rudder, guns, torp tubes, etc. and cause detonations.

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7 hours ago, Blackgunner said:

Yes, it's also improperly done as well.  The concussive force from HE detonating near a ship can do damage just as a direct hit can.  But WG conveniently leaves that part out.

Not just HE. An AP shell can damage a ship as well. An 18 inch AP shell detonating in the water near a DD or light cruiser would cause a good amount of damage.

2 hours ago, Horama said:

Actually, this is included in game.  When a large caliber HE shell hits near a ship, it deals damage to module and the magazine, meaning it can knock out things like engine, rudder, guns, torp tubes, etc. and cause detonations.

Only for HE though. I am sure that an AP shell will detonate when it hits the water, which would also cause damage.
To their credit, the devs have implemented shells that can still pen and deal massive damage even after hitting the water (close to a ship of course).

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1 hour ago, Viper101 said:

Not just HE. An AP shell can damage a ship as well. An 18 inch AP shell detonating in the water near a DD or light cruiser would cause a good amount of damage.

Only for HE though. I am sure that an AP shell will detonate when it hits the water, which would also cause damage.
To their credit, the devs have implemented shells that can still pen and deal massive damage even after hitting the water (close to a ship of course).

Yeah.  That's why I sit here when people mention subs and are like, "Subs are impervious to damage" and it's like...  No.  No they're not.  A battleship HE shell lands above them while they're at periscope depth, that concussive force can make short work of the pressure hull.  Unarmored pressurized tube vs 16" High Explosive @ 50 meters...  Yeah  the 16" is gonna win.

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@needlenoses4 Actually BBs gun barrels are aimed with a slight variance for each barrel particularly for the first shot. The straddling you see is the result of the in game dispersion mechanic. Actually the shell splashes are observed and the barrels aim variance is either decreased for rounds falling long and increased for rounds falling short and also for those falling ahead and behind. This process is repeated until a hit is scored then the barrels are variances are adjusted accordingly which should result in more hits. In the game once your aim produces a hit or hits subsequent salvoes begin to produce more hits as long as you keep up with your aiming lead. Get off even a little and you start missing again.

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Good input gentlemen; read it all.  Took out the kongo today along with the Gneisenau.  Max for the day was 53 k damage. I do make bad choices like hooking up with another BB for support then end up being surprized by a swarm of BBs and cruisers.  Today actually;  got heavily pounded while the other BB was left alone and escaped unhurt; made it out but got hurt bad; wont be the last time I make wrong choices.  did get 2 kills in that game so not groaning too much.  Will try more angle shooting, and I rarely go for a full salvo; like to see where the first couple of shells land before I continue firing.  Still trying.  Did have a good game with the N.Orleans so I do have some good battles.

TKS. 

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12 hours ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

@needlenoses4 Actually BBs gun barrels are aimed with a slight variance for each barrel particularly for the first shot. The straddling you see is the result of the in game dispersion mechanic. Actually the shell splashes are observed and the barrels aim variance is either decreased for rounds falling long and increased for rounds falling short and also for those falling ahead and behind. This process is repeated until a hit is scored then the barrels are variances are adjusted accordingly which should result in more hits. In the game once your aim produces a hit or hits subsequent salvoes begin to produce more hits as long as you keep up with your aiming lead. Get off even a little and you start missing again.

Lol WHAT?

 

This is interesting but I'd love to more proof of this. I was just talking to my dad (who also plays, since he's now retired) on how I'd love a mechanic like this. 

 

If this mechanic actually exists, it seems terribly over shadowed by RNG or poorly balanced per individual ship. EVERYONE I've watched, including myself, have had opening shots where the shells clustered in tightly on a max range shot and caused a 1 hit kill. I've also had shots where a single shell is ALL that hit and caused a 1 hit kill. Then I've had games where the opening shot was properly led like the others before and shells fall all around the target. Logic would dictate that the Dispersion mechanic grossly over shadows this "other" mechanic. 

I've tested this crap in the training rooms before, using controlled firing ranges and stationary targets. Is there really a "dialed in" after each successive hit "buff"?

 

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@Nurhaal What I described is how getting on target is actually done with any type of artillery. The guns are fired in the general area of the target shell strikes are observed aim adjusted etc until as many rounds as possible land on target.

This is simulated in the game with dispersion and RNG and yes the occasional lucky long distance kill shots happen!

You can test all you want and hopefully you will improve your aim but even then dispersion and rng is not going to allow you to land 100% of a salvos rounds on target other than the occasional fluke of good luck.

Also my comment was to needlenose but the same applies for you!

Hello to your Dad from another retired Dad. an old one at that! 66!

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16 hours ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

@Nurhaal What I described is how getting on target is actually done with any type of artillery. The guns are fired in the general area of the target shell strikes are observed aim adjusted etc until as many rounds as possible land on target.

This is simulated in the game with dispersion and RNG and yes the occasional lucky long distance kill shots happen!

You can test all you want and hopefully you will improve your aim but even then dispersion and rng is not going to allow you to land 100% of a salvos rounds on target other than the occasional fluke of good luck.

Also my comment was to needlenose but the same applies for you!

Hello to your Dad from another retired Dad. an old one at that! 66!

You got me excited there for a moment!

 

I'd love a mechanic like this to exist, where each successful salvo buffs your dispersion ever so much so you get more hits so long as your aiming skill remains consistent. I've got a good concept of how arty works out, it's one of the reasons why years before WoWS came out, hard core naval history forums would debate the traditional debate of "Who Would Win" vs a Yamato. The Bismark actually had a chance simply due to the reality you described, among other things. It be an amazing mechanic to have something analogous to IRL Arty fire control implemented as a skill based system in-game.

having such a mechanic in-game would be something I'd want so much. You got me so hyped that I hopped online and did a GK target practice match with my Massachusetts - yeah no such system is in-game and it sucks. XD It's 100% RNG, like my fire control does not exist. I know hit rates in this game are obsurdly high compared to RL, but come on - I don't see how I should have shells FALL SHORT of a freaking GK only 4km away. That's embarrassing!!! XD

I did find that my dispersion radius was nearly as bad at 4km as it is at 15km ... that's... odd...

Like seriously, in close up knife fights, I've tested the BB Mass and it's guns are grossly drunk under 5km and I dunno why...

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23 hours ago, needlenoses4 said:

...  Will try more angle shooting, and I rarely go for a full salvo; like to see where the first couple of shells land before I continue firing. 

You have to be careful trusting this method since because of the time compression a lot of things can change from the first shot to the last. Target aspect, direction, speed- all of it. Suggest you learn how to cold shot each salvo. Several videos from iChase and I think notser on aiming. Highly recommend. 

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On 7/29/2018 at 7:40 AM, needlenoses4 said:

So I am running various BBs and I have found that my shells are landing both just short and just long for each salvo; might get 1 or two hits.  Tried changing the angle of my ship nosing at the target and away but same thing.  If I get 3 hits and a bounce in a salvo it is my lucky day.  Another thing; I see a lot of shells coming my way from ships out of sight and out of range.  I see them way out and turn into them a hard as I can and almost get straight on and a still get hit hard. Like are these mystery ghost ships mind readers.  I get lots of time to turn and alter speed to no avail most of the time.  Yikes.

Another consideration is range, if you are sniping from 20 kl it is not surprising you are missing. A comfortable range is 15km, from here to pistol shot you should be hitting what you aim at. Of course everyone’s sweetspot is different.

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Have again read all these posts and thanks for all of it.  Trying all ideas as I go along.  Funny little side note; took out the Mutsuki DD for a spin;  I totally suck at DDs  ( see torp stats) but what the hell; it has only two small guns on it;  so I went on the attack around the backside of islands and there they were; both enemy CVs;  long story short, they were unsupported, planes were off on the attack and I actually sank them both; no, not bragging as totally a rare event for me.  Also took on a BB head to head and sank it up close.  I think it was unmanned of course as secondary's were not firing and it was just sitting there for me as it should!!  It was a hoot.  Next game I took it out and it was a no-hitter.  Went through a channel and got torpedo swarmed from a DD and a plane.  No shots fired.  So luck has a place in this game for sure.

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9 hours ago, monpetitloup said:

Another consideration is range, if you are sniping from 20 kl it is not surprising you are missing. A comfortable range is 15km, from here to pistol shot you should be hitting what you aim at. Of course everyone’s sweetspot is different.

I agree as I do tend to sit back a bit and snipe as you called it; figure I am a tad safer zigging and speed changing which is not a treat in a BB.  Might take out the N.Carolina for a spin even though I always lose money ( credits ) when I do.  That and the St. Louis T9.  It's like that level of battle is just a bit much for my skill set; plus they like sinking me  :)

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10 hours ago, needlenoses4 said:

I agree as I do tend to sit back a bit and snipe as you called it; figure I am a tad safer zigging and speed changing which is not a treat in a BB.  Might take out the N.Carolina for a spin even though I always lose money ( credits ) when I do.  That and the St. Louis T9.  It's like that level of battle is just a bit much for my skill set; plus they like sinking me  :)

It is important to learn how to take damage while returning it, how not to over extend and to not be the only target. A bb should not be in front, but should not be so far back that it cant take some fire. You should be in range where you are hitting ships for dmage, and your guns should always be singing (unless you break off to heal) if not, the enemy is free to push and focus destroyers and cruisers. Remember in a bb the xp rewards are for damage done as well as potential damage recieved.

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thanks for that; always learning; picked up the Normandie and the Fuzo so will have some ships to practice with.  Following other BBs  ( not too close ) to see what they are doing.  Some are just standing off at max range waiting for a shot;  doing that I end up not supporting and taking way too long to get back into damaging range;  so wont do that

 

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