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_Madcows_

Removal of Radar needs serious rework thread to support

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Apologies to all those who will bemoan this request, but could WG please return the "radar needs serious rework" thread to General discussion. Whether or not people agree with the topic, it has a very large number of replies and views and discusses a major aspect of the game at present which like it or not is polarising and worthy of discussion. Yes there is allot of silly comments, bias and everything in-between.... but it also has a significant amount of valid concerns, criticisms or suggestions (from both sides). It does not belong in the support thread hidden away.

Yes everybody is sick to death of radar threads.... so why hide away the major thread on the topic which at least condenses that topic....

I for one don't usually post on the forums, typically i like to look occasionally and then make up my own mind as to issues, but moving this thread really ticked me off (likely because I am one of those people quietly concerned that radar does have a detrimental impact which needs urgent revision, but didn't want to make a song and dance about it... others are better at doing that than me anyway).

Anyhow the above is my main gripe but may as well add my thoughts as to radar since im here and may as well make my points; (which people can ignore if they want I don't mind, its just the above I really want addressed)

1) Radar without LOS is silly but bearable without over population.... but that is not the case now.

2) radar pushes either towards stagnation (when people have to dance about caps rather than actually contest them), or equally as common results in complete wipeouts of teams when a percentage of DDs get smashed so early on. Either option is unsatisfying i would hazard to suggest for most players regardless of class.

3) dancing about caps is sometimes still not possible despite what people say especially if you play single rather than division. Islands or island "shadow's to LOS" still make it easy for people to push up and radar without warning which can end your day in a DD, this despite you doing everything right. I second this also as it is exactly what i do in my cruisers and it is very very easy to do, and even though low numbers relatively of battle makes for a wide difference in WR. Also waiting for opportunities to take caps is not always possible especially if your backup does not take care of the radar ships etc despite all your best intentions, spotting etc. This is important as I know people will say move to another cap, but often as not by this stage I find the other caps are in the red teams hands already due to excessively passive play from other dds and once you are down on caps the advantage is firmly on the defending team +++.

4) radar does need some form of counter this apart from "running away." Running may and does work, but when a mechanism can and often is used almost constantly with premium consumables plus multiple ships stack it, then can it really be justifiable to always "run away." Spamming torps at max range is very very ineffective and dumbs down skill, and spamming HE if you can as well is equally stupid (aka khaba-mode).

5) If one wishes to keep radar + hydro + planes then please get rid of the crutch which is the spotted icon. Yes previously when these mechanics such as radar or hydro were less common it could be excused to have this, but now given all the changes the game has shouldn't a players 'skill,' decide whether they plan ahead for torp attacks, rather than have an automatic sign saying somethings fishy.... (excuse the pun!). ( this is coming from my observation since CBT)

6) In line with point 5 given all the crutches in the game now can the spotting range on IJN torps be made playable. It is outright ridiculous that I can more succesfully torp people in my ognevoi than I can in the higher tier IJN torp boats. (sorry not exactly radar related point but wanted to through this one in).

7) One balancing option could be can the dispersion of shells fired at ships only spotted by radar please be altered to at least reflect the fact that these are ships firing artillery rather than guided missiles, and radar then was not as per radar in the 21st century.

8) could the game mode of domination please be altered if radar is to stay such that the dependence on cap control is not so punishing. Or at least the location of caps be altered such that it is not so obvious to radar ships. I stress this as standard mode (which I will admit I like also as much as the old domination without radar) at least has less emphasis on the cap and hence radar is used more wisely at least rather than a rush fwd and camp behind island strategy. Map design changes I see could alter this at least in so far as maybe not having equal lines of caps between teams but maybe placed in the rear, this at least precluding the whole rush cap mentality of radar ships.

9) Potentially make it so concealment of radar ships is not sooo close to that of their radar range. Reason been not because of the radar ship, but rather ships rarely sail alone, and its not the one ship that usually kills you but the multiple cross-firing ships which can suddenly be all in range when the radar turns on and your caught out. As everyone know the more people shooting you means the chances of you getting away drop dramatically or your HP is reduced to such a point that you can be hamstrung for the rest of the match.

Anyhow just some of my musing, i know some mentioned already, please ignore if you want the bottom bit, but otherwise this is a sincere request to have the old thread placed back in general discussion where it belongs and was actually of interest especially to those non-regular forum goers such as myself.

Cheers

_Madcows_

 

 

 

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Deleting threads is like the burning of the books. Censorship. It seems the moderators are getting a bit slash happy lately.

Edited by Sovereigndawg
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How about no? It’s not a general discussion. As one of the most prolific radar-hate-train posters alluded to, it only really affected (psychologically for the most part based on improving performance despite the EVIL) a few players from very specific ships. Namely ijn dd, in randoms, not divisions and only high tier. So like 3 ships total. It’s a 5000 pages whine fest of thinly veiled ijn dd only self interest all authored by pretty much the same 10 or so folks. It was never really about radar. It was about statistics, basically manufactured half truths from some dubious maple syrup site, “unfun” whatever-it-is-at-the-moment and an incongruous morass of belly aches and posterior pains. It became a dump site for a plethora of similarly repetitive cry posts. 

Because of it was generally not very productive and frequently lapsed into toxic pit of intolerance and ridicule and went off in unrelated tangents the mods moved it out of general and into support. It is after all a player issue and not a game issue per se so folks needing support can go there to get it.

This is a good thing because lots of other topics were being overshadowed and shuffled off to page 2-3 without getting the attention and contemplation they otherwise would have.

Edited by thebigblue
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Hey don't get me wrong thebigblue im not interested in the wine and cheese, but I think the impact radar has is greater than you say, both for better or worse and you can disagree or agree... doesn't make it any more or less a discussion, hence shoving it in support is irritating. Plus if something is so very important then surely it will stay high up there in the topics.... if not (and lets be honest there is a allot of trash) then it will be lost by attrition... not just been shunted into a quiet corner. Plus I am not either interested in DD mafia or BB whatever it is... but rather a player who thinks a topic is important regardless of spicy trash talk some may bring up.

 

ps lol i gotta get farenheit 451 out again now, shouldn't have watched that vid

Edited by _Madcows_

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11 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

How about no? It’s not a general discussion. As one of the most prolific radar-hate-train posters alluded to, it only really affected (psychologically for the most part based on improving performance despite the EVIL) a few players from very specific ships. Namely ijn dd, in randoms, not divisions and only high tier. So like 3 ships total. It’s a 5000 pages whine fest of thinly veiled ijn dd only self interest all authored by pretty much the same 10 or so folks. It was never really about radar. It was about statistics, basically manufactured half truths from some dubious maple syrup site, “unfun” whatever-it-is-at-the-moment and an incongruous morass of belly aches and posterior pains. It became a dump site for a plethora of similarly repetitive cry posts. 

Because of it was generally not very productive and frequently lapsed into toxic pit of intolerance and ridicule and went off in unrelated tangents the mods moved it out of general and into support. It is after all a player issue and not a game issue per se so folks needing support can go there to get it.

This is a good thing because lots of other topics were being overshadowed and shuffled off to page 2-3 without getting the attention and contemplation they otherwise would have.

Why do I get the feeling you play something other than DDs?

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Hmm....another radar thread.  Speaking of which....what ever happened to that other super massive one?

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4 minutes ago, yashma said:

Hmm....another radar thread.  Speaking of which....what ever happened to that other super massive one?

SHH!!! Don't mention it and they won't be as inclined to dig it back up, dummy!

Okay, my honest opinion on the topic of radar and its discussion here on the forums basically boils down to this: Is there really anything more to be said? HUNDREDS of pages of posts, new topics practically every day that get merged just to keep the boards from becoming cluttered, heated and impassioned debate... That all keeps going around in circles. We have ideas on how to fix it, we have heard why people think it sucks, and we have heard why people think it doesn't suck. Over and over again the same things, day in and day out. Can we just take a break from radar? Please?

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10 minutes ago, yashma said:

Hmm....another radar thread.  Speaking of which....what ever happened to that other super massive one?

Once a discussion degenerates into madness it's usually removed to prevent further chaos.  When it comes down to it, the topic is just too controversial to discuss.  

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14 minutes ago, Blackgunner said:

Once a discussion degenerates into madness it's usually removed to prevent further chaos.  When it comes down to it, the topic is just too controversial to discuss.  

If a mechanic is really so controversial that discussion about it needs to be quashed or censored, than perhaps the mechanic itself is not a good addition to the game in its current form.

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4 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

If a mechanic is really so controversial that discussion about it needs to be quashed or censored, than perhaps the mechanic itself is not a good addition to the game in its current form.

It's a nice assumption; but they've already got the picture.  People have problems with it.  They'll run it through a couple months of testing trying to figure out what changes can be done with all the doubtless thousands of ideas already presented.  And then they may or may not change it, it's up to them.  Blathering on about it is just going to create more confusion and chaos and clutter up for the forums.  Unfortunately, no matter how much you want it to be 'now, now, now'.  It isn't going to be.

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If a topic is all said and done though.... then it will die by natural attrition, just like all those silly ones that come out day in day out that have only say 1-10 replies only. The radar thread I felt was kind of fascinating because it went for soooooo long, and wasn't just people having temper tantrums, but also people having good advice or suggestions as well.

Plus lol im not adding a radar thread, just a please return the original thread thread....

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Just now, KiyoSenkan said:

If a mechanic is really so controversial that discussion about it needs to be quashed or censored, than perhaps the mechanic itself is not a good addition to the game in its current form.

If a discussion results in nothing but perpetuating controversy then it should be quashed. It was moved not censored. Perhaps the discussion as it was, wasn’t a good addition to the forum. It’s one click away. Not sure what the drama is about.

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1 minute ago, Blackgunner said:

It's a nice assumption; but they've already got the picture.  People have problems with it.  They'll run it through a couple months of testing trying to figure out what changes can be done with all the doubtless thousands of ideas already presented.  And then they may or may not change it, it's up to them.  Blathering on about it is just going to create more confusion and chaos and clutter up for the forums.

This a thousand times.

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4 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

If a discussion results in nothing but perpetuating controversy then it should be quashed. It was moved not censored. Perhaps the discussion as it was, wasn’t a good addition to the forum. It’s one click away. Not sure what the drama is about.

The point of discussion is that it involves more than one person... you may have nothing to say, but you are not everybody else. Controversy does result in action, just as has happened many many many times over for all the classes of ships. Also just because it may well all be said and done, doesn't mean another suggestion may come up which people have not considered... and if it doesn't the thread dies by attrition as said above.

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Control of how you communicate is step 1 in the rulebook of convincing people that sand is wet.

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As a general consumable slot VS a DD the evolution towards Radar from a gameplay stand point make sense. 

CatFTR, a sweeping flying consumable that potentially can Spot a DD beyond its base surface Detectability. 

Spotter, similar to CatFTR, additional the modified Gun View allows for the user to more easily identify a target obscured within Smoke; based on Muzzle Flash. 

Radar, Non-Sweeping, short duration consumable that negates all visual obstructions.

They all share the same consumable slots on most ships. The biggest gripe people have is Radar's ability to see though landmasses because it's not thematic. Spotter and CatFTR thematically are able to see over landmasses. 

A ship's inability to equip both makes Radar's in-game evolution to do everything a Plane does +More makes sense because taking up the same slot means Do the same thing But Better; OR do something similar of equal value (Hydro VS DFAA). 

Thematically what ship capable of support both didn't have Radar and a Seaplane Catapult? The obsolescence of the latter came within the improvements on the former. 

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It's better it stays dead for awhile. It ended up being an echo chamber where bitter players started insulting each other. Posting in this thread before it gets locked or deleted.

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All those R-word threads are gone, daddy gone.

 

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1 hour ago, Blackgunner said:

It's a nice assumption; but they've already got the picture.  People have problems with it.  They'll run it through a couple months of testing trying to figure out what changes can be done with all the doubtless thousands of ideas already presented.  And then they may or may not change it, it's up to them.  Blathering on about it is just going to create more confusion and chaos and clutter up for the forums.  Unfortunately, no matter how much you want it to be 'now, now, now'.  It isn't going to be.

They aren't even concerned about Radar; they said it themselves in one of the Reddit Q&As earlier this year. They're happy with the metrics, there are no plans to change Radar, and the only thing remotely related to it is a possible experimental "Jammer" consumable that would replace the smoke consumable, but it is simply not on their priority list of things to deal with.

Heck, they even said that it's not a big deal as the USN CL fad will fade as new lines come in. So the sudden rise in Radar isn't an issue in their eyes.

As for me personally? I have no bone to pick with it. All my DDs are either long-range torpers and scouts, or gunboats, and always on the move. Except for Akizuki. She's a hybrid CA with CL turrets in disguise now. I find it's better to park her with some USN CLs for mutual support.

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It was 180 pages of regurgitated arguements, purposeful ignorance, and thinly vieled, and not so thinly vieled insults. There were may be 20-30 really good posts in the whole thing, and mainly a debate between the same 10-12 people for 90% of the thread.

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10 hours ago, yashma said:

Hmm....another radar thread.  Speaking of which....what ever happened to that other super massive one?

That’s what I’m wondering. 

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10 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

It was 180 pages of regurgitated arguements, purposeful ignorance, and thinly vieled, and not so thinly vieled insults. There were may be 20-30 really good posts in the whole thing, and mainly a debate between the same 10-12 people for 90% of the thread.

Well at least you admit it finally. 

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11 hours ago, yashma said:

Hmm....another radar thread.  Speaking of which....what ever happened to that other super massive one?

It is in the support sections of forums where it was started.

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