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Ericson38

KGV Versus Gneisenau

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I have both of these, get twice as much damage with the KGV versus the German BB. What are other folks observations ?

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Are you using Gneisenau as a close range ship with upgraded secondary guns? Between the main guns, secondary guns, and the torpedoes the Gneisenau often can stack up a lot of damage.

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Gneisenau is the most polarizing ship in the German BB Line.  I know some good players that swear by her but typically, people hate her.  The problem has always been gun consistency.  Most everything about her is actually very good.  Speed, citadel protection, secondaries, tied for best BB AA in Tier VII (Lyon is the other), torps.  Everything is great except those 6, inaccurate guns.  If Gneisenau can close distance where gun inaccuracy is no longer a huge issue, she's magnificent.  There are times, especially when she's top tier, she'll easily do this.  But sometimes it's hard to get to the brawling ranges she desperately needs.  If she's forced to fight 14km+, that's where she spectacularly fails.

 

KGV is like every RN BB.  Medium to long range is her preference.  She has worthless AA, even more worthless secondaries.  She is coated with armor that Cruisers and Destroyers will have a fun time penetrating with their HE.  Oddly, KGV is more vulnerable to Cruiser gunfire than Gneisenau / Scharnhorst because of this.  However, she is decently stealthy, sails fast, and has much more consistent gunnery.  The guns shoot fast, have RN BB HE.  Those good factors combine to make a fast, stealthy BB with consistent gunnery, and this shapes up as one of the top two performing Tier VII BBs (Nelson being no.1.).

 

Let me put it this way.  I love Scharnhorst.  I did well with her.  She's gotten me some great matches.  But after sailing KGV and wearing the f--k down out of multiple Scharnhorsts, I went on to say, even early on when RN BBs first came out, that KGV is better than her.

 

There is no trick to KGV.  You sail around, keep distance, don't get focused, and keep firing away.  Gneisenau desperately needs to brawl to do good, otherwise she's a total fail.  It is no surprise that KGV is easier to use and do better with than Gneisenau.

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Thanks for the insight. I thought I was loosing my mind. All the critical words on KGV, but she is very good. I love playing Bismark on the test server, have even given up bonuses to play T10 just to stay at T8 with her.

 

 

Edited by Ericson38

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Are you using Gneisenau as a close range ship with upgraded secondary guns? Between the main guns, secondary guns, and the torpedoes the Gneisenau often can stack up a lot of damage.

I have heard of doing that. I have B hull, but not BFT or AFT.  I had secondary module but changed to main gun aim module since I could not hit anything to speak of without AIM upgrade. Close to BFT. Secondaries are good, I'll grant you. Don't play close in, get set on fire to a crisp that way. Under 20K damage per game, DDs, in smoke beat her to a pulp. Long range not working either. Got torped by a Shchors just now, a 1st in 9000 games.

Edited by Ericson38

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King George for farming damage.

Gneis for farming wins. (and cv tears)

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20 minutes ago, Ericson38 said:

I have heard of doing that. I have B hull, but not BFT or AFT.  I had secondary module but changed to main gun aim module since I could not hit anything to speak of without AIM upgrade. Close to BFT. Secondaries are good, I'll grant you. Don't play close in, get set on fire to a crisp that way. Under 20K damage per game, DDs, in smoke beat her to a pulp. Long range not working either. Got torped by a Shchors just now, a 1st in 9000 games.

Ok get a Captain with Preventive Maintenance, Expert Marksman, Adrenaline Rush, BFT, AFT, and Concealment Expert and the secondary gun Signal Flag is important. Added to the ships upgraded these will allow you to get in closer without detection, then once at detection range you can unleash withering fire. Not uncommon these days for me to get 100k Damage or more in a Gneisenau battle. Also make sure you have Catapult Fighter, since that combined with the BFT and AFT will make you lethal to enemy planes, I have cleaned out CVs before in good RNG battles with bad CV players before lol.

As far as getting burned to a crisp use the Premium Damage Control and Repair Party that can be set to resupply for credits.

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42 minutes ago, MountainManxDan said:

King George for farming damage.

Gneis for farming wins. (and cv tears)

Loss rate is worse than I thought one could go at T7. DDs own it. On fire to the end, typically about 15K damage. can't wait to see today's results tomorrow am, they are worse on day 2.

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2 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Ok get a Captain with Preventive Maintenance, Expert Marksman, Adrenaline Rush, BFT, AFT, and Concealment Expert and the secondary gun Signal Flag is important. Added to the ships upgraded these will allow you to get in closer without detection, then once at detection range you can unleash withering fire. Not uncommon these days for me to get 100k Damage or more in a Gneisenau battle. Also make sure you have Catapult Fighter, since that combined with the BFT and AFT will make you lethal to enemy planes, I have cleaned out CVs before in good RNG battles with bad CV players before lol.

As far as getting burned to a crisp use the Premium Damage Control and Repair Party that can be set to resupply for credits.

I have expert loader and marksman in 1 and 2 slot, DE and BFT in 3 slot, and CE in 4th spot. B hull, use sec flag also. Don't have Ad Rush or AFT. Engine module upgrade also.

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Just now, Ericson38 said:

I have expert loader and marksman in 1 and 2 slot, DE and BFT in 3 slot, and CE in 4th spot. B hull, use sec flag also. Don't have Ad Rush or AFT. Engine module upgrade also.

Do you have Rudder shift Mod 1? Very important fir a brawling ship since you need to be able to dodge fire and Torps, not to mention thread through island areas.

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5 minutes ago, Ericson38 said:

Loss rate is worse than I thought one could go at T7. DDs own it. On fire to the end, typically about 15K damage. can't wait to see today's results tomorrow am, they are worse on day 2.

My secret to getting rid of DDs are to charge a DD head on if it is alone since they love to attack broadside, but if you go bow on and charge your guns will hurt them greatly.

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18 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Do you have Rudder shift Mod 1? Very important fir a brawling ship since you need to be able to dodge fire and Torps, not to mention thread through island areas.

Have repair party module there to fight fires. I get lit up big time. Basically if I take on another ship, I am not hitting it 50% of the time, while they are hitting me consistently, so red team stays healthy around me.

Edited by Ericson38

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Just now, Ericson38 said:

Have repair party module there to fight fires. I get lit up big time.

Repair part module is not need as much as the premium repair and damage control are.

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25 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Repair part module is not need as much as the premium repair and damage control are.

I have repair in both available slots (mod 1 and 2). I burned through all my repair party 2 and damage control 2 already.

Edited by Ericson38

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Just played KGV after not playing it for a few days. Got onto T7-9 team, we won, did 89K damage, 1/3 ship health left. Used only 34 shells. Received 44K damage. All HE. This is typical. Can't believe the difference.

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1 hour ago, Ericson38 said:

I have expert loader and marksman in 1 and 2 slot, DE and BFT in 3 slot, and CE in 4th spot. B hull, use sec flag also. Don't have Ad Rush or AFT. Engine module upgrade also.

Frankly, all these talents you've picked (aside from Concealment and possibly BFT) are of questionable value, as is the engine reinforcement. The temptation to build for secondaries on Gneisenau is very strong, but it's not a very good fit for the fire-spam meta these days.

Expert Marksman is a wash. Gneisenau's turrets are plenty fast baseline and 0.7deg/sec doesn't really help them all that much. Take those points and put them into Adrenaline Rush. With so few guns (and pretty good secondaries/torps) you'll want to have all your weapons firing as much as possible. Expert loader is similarly useless, because Gneisenau's reload is pretty fast and mostly you should be shooting AP anyway, except against angled tier 8-9 battleships that you can't overmatch. I recommmend the following "Basic BBitch Build:"

1.) Priority Target or Preventive Maintenance. Your choice. I prefer Priority Target because it gives you tons of information, which is far more helpful to your gameplay and decisionmaking than slightly better RNG on taking critical hits. PM is helpful if you insist on running secondaries, but other than that, Priority Target all the way.

2.) Adrenaline Rush. Expert Marksman is a wash; Gneisenau's turrets are pretty snappy as-is and 0.7deg/sec doesn't really help them very much, even in close quarters. AR, however, buffs all of your armaments, and with so few main battery guns (of such inconsistent accuracy) you really want to be throwing as many shells as possible as quickly as possible. It also helps your torpedo reload for when you're able to close into brawling range, increasing your threat profile immensely.

3.) Your choice of Superintendent, Basics of Survivability, and Vigilance, depending on how much you hate fires/torps. Gneisenau has a huge turning circle, so Vigi is of questionable value, and I find that HE spam is a far more prevalent and annoying threat than torpedoes, but really, Superintendent's extra heal charge kinda gives you the best help against both threats. If you're running secondaries, BFT is nice, but I really question how viable secondaries are in general in the current meta.

4.) Concealment Expert. This is important because it allows you tactical flexibility. It enables you to get closer to your targets before you open up, giving them much less time to react, and this helps compensate for the bad accuracy of the main guns. It also makes it much easier to disengage when you need to.

Beyond that, you have to start making decisions about what sort of threat you want to be able to counter. Fire Prevention is probably the best choice overall in this meta of HE spam cancer, but AFT is what you want if you're trying to make  your secondaries do some work. Alternatively, since carriers are more prevalent in the mid-tiers, Manual AA is a decent choice. High Alert is quite useful for easing the strain on your fire extinguisher as well.

Really, though, Gneisenau is mostly a relic of a bygone era. It's still fun to drive because of the insane speed, but it's so hard to make it work in the current meta, where playing aggressively mostly just gets you focused and spammed to death.

--Helms

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If the torpedoes aren't use KGV will destroy that gneisenau at all ranges. With torpedoes used you probably will die before you get close enough do to the HE spamm but if you get close enough then you can just torp him and thats the end.

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KGV is a solid battleship, it does what a battleship should.  The Gneisenau however is different.  I always thought and played her as a very heavy cruiser and she seemed to work well in that frame of mind.  She's fast, her rudder can be quite good and she has potent close range firepower.  As long as you don't snipe(much), or YOLO, she's the ideal ship to anchor a flanking run with your teams cruisers.  The cruisers can't outrun her and she can tank serious damage from the enemy using her rudder to keep her angles changing and bringing her guns to bear.

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On 7/26/2018 at 3:24 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Gneisenau is the most polarizing ship in the German BB Line.  I know some good players that swear by her but others swear at her.

fify

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Gneisenau and Scharnhorst are the Stoßtruppen of the German battleship line.  This "berserker" playstyle is very high risk, and can lead to dying early a lot, but it's fun.  It's not for everyone, but it's fun.  Some of my very best games in the Scharnhorst were where I flanked a cruiser and destroyer that were hiding behind an island lobbing HE shells.  The surprise sent them scrambling and forced them to make a lot of mistakes, but it dislodged their team enough to help win the game.  And that's the key part with the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst; they excel at breaking these static positions.  When you combine their great mobility, heavy armor, and strong armament - all with torpedoes like it's a cherry on top - it's a formidable force for breaking enemy positions, and really great for winning games.

But, you die a lot, and most people don't find that to be very fun. 

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My Scharn is still quite effective in the current meta, which I don't think has changed all that much from the beta days.  Cruisers still fling HE, there are just more of them good (rate of fire) at it, DDs still torp spam and skirt around the flanks.  The largest change to me has been BB HE spam, thanks to the British BB line.  But you deal with that the same as you do with cruiser HE.  What I think is different about the Scharn and Gneis is their play style versus the other German BBs.  They are not as capable as rushing brawlers because of either a smaller caliber main battery (Scharn) or a small number of barrels (Gneis).  I find great success playing Scharn as a super-heavy cruiser, not as a battleship.  This takes better advantage of her traits - faster reload, more barrels, speed and maneuverability.  I hunt cruisers, turn the flank, break up pushes by smaller ships.  Something that has worked particularly well and is quite fun is to follow a bit behind a friendly DD that is pushing a flank.  If they fall back and are being chased by a cruiser or two, I steam right into them, opening fire only once I am in detection range.  With the closing speed being near 60 knots, most cruisers cannot turn away without giving up multiple close-range cits, and if they press on, well, at short range the Scharn obliterates them.  I have seen the Gneis used the same way.  Use the speed of these ships to pick your engagement, going for more vulnerable targets versus trying to tank on through or fight in the main battle line.

I haven't driven the Shiny Horse in a month or so while grinding the Halsey campaign, I hope to get back to it soon, though I must admit, it tends to feel like seal clubbing, especially when top tier.  Poor Omaha and Emerald, and the USN standard BBs.

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I enjoy playing the Gneisenau but rarely get to play her like a brawler. By the time I get to close in I am burned up. Supporting DD's or CL's don't support and I get roasted by Clevelands and Helenas. I have had some success at range with her, and getting cits on a broadside cruiser is always fun. To me, she burns way to easily, and with no help you are all alone and a priority target. The only British BB I have played is Warspite, her turret traverse is beyond slow and to me the shell dispersion is terrible. Seems to me the current BB play style is the camp in the rear, and try to get long range hits or to hide behind islands which I totally don't understand.

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