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Trawn_Admiral

Hindenburg nerfed

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Friends What happened to the Hindenburg and his nerfdada suffered by WG? After playing over 700 battles with this ship, I lost my mind until I played the game with this 11s update to its cannons. Regarding hindenburg, it is a multi-function, it has a little bit of everything and a little bit of nothing. But how so? He beat a lot and picked up, but today he only picks up. In one test, I saw that he lost to a Des Moines from Front because his piercing projects did not pierce and the explosives were insufficient for the Des Moines from the front. With Moskva, and Henry is the same. With Zao, he does not have the stealth of zao, let alone his incendiary cannons, or 12km torpedoes, so the only chance is to expect a player from Zao to turn sideways less than 10km, which almost never happens. If it happens you lose too. With the Minotaur, it's almost the same as the Des Moines, if the player comes straight in. Close enough and pass to your side, the minotaur is fast enough to drop torpedoes, he's going to take some citadel, but he's supposed to be alive. The Wocester is not even talked about, which ship is very snorted, he does not even have a citadel, and his 127mm armor resisting 203mm side cannons? I do not understand, it causes more side damage than another heavy cruiser on x1. The Hindenburg can not handle it like it did before, nor for another cruiser, before it could even take battleship. But today, he picks up a PE projectile, and almost does not cause PE and PP damage, you can not play and waiting for an opportunity for a player to turn aside at 10km, no one else does that anymore. All he had was fast cannons, decent reload and piercing with good precision, now they took it off, the ship was gone.

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What did I just read? :Smile_amazed:

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I think,,, somewhere in there,,,, he is saying they 'nerfed' the Hindenberg.   Not sure of the details since none provided, just observations.

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Didn't they change the base gun reload from 10 seconds to 11 seconds?

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11 minutes ago, Captain_Dorja said:

Didn't they change the base gun reload from 10 seconds to 11 seconds?

Yes.  Doesn't even matter.  Still one of the best T10 cruisers.

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12 minutes ago, Captain_Dorja said:

Didn't they change the base gun reload from 10 seconds to 11 seconds?

Yep, that is basically the only direct nerf that has happened to the Hindenburg since ist release. Other than that, the past only Held buffs for her (armor increase, 1/4 HE pen, faster reload, Sigma increase).

@OP I doubt that Hindenburg is gone in any way. I just played her yesterday for some Clan Battles, she still worked wonders. The dpm is a bit lower, but other than that her tankiness, powerful Shells and versatility remain unchanged.

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25 minutes ago, Captain_Dorja said:

Didn't they change the base gun reload from 10 seconds to 11 seconds?

Yeah, a patch ago. Didn't really affect her much.

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Hey

I sometimes wonder if there isn't quiet manipulation behind the scenes that doesn't get told to the gaming public.  I too have seen the Hindy not be as good as it was before the last patch concerning the giving and taking of damage to and from the Hindy.  Yes, we have the 1 second reload nerf, which is noticeable, but the Hindy does not seem the same ship as far as what it's capable of dishing out, nor what it can tank.  While you can still do good at times, it doesn't seem to be the beast it was, and it was very pronounced with the last patch, at least for me.  I have roughly 660K XP on the boat, so it's not like I have never played it, with a 19pt captain in it (it still holds my damage record of 201.6K).  Something has changed and it seems more than just the recent cruiser meta, which for all intents was a relatively easy kill for the German AP.  Even with both Fire flags, it doesn't seem to start fires as well as it used to.  I guess the real telling thing will be is to see how her stats look after clan battles at how the Hindy performs compared to her contemporaries, like the armor buff'd Moskva.  Still a very good boat but not what it was.

 

Pete  

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Yeah Hindy is really strong. If a ship gets nerfed, and it's hard to even recall what was done, it probably didn't have much effect.

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Hindi without questions was nerfed. I own 2,000,000 xp with him and three captains. And I say one thing, today he is taking very significant significant damage to battleships and other ships, before it happened, any salvo of a battleship in it, is a risk of taking a very high citadel. Not to mention that, I want you to do the following: Try to fight a Hindenburg on x1 on the workout map, any cruiser, Zao, Moskva, Des Moines, Henri, will kill you before it reaches less than 5km. At x1 he did not beat cruisers so in the open place, what he had was decent cannons, quick spin, and nice reload, with 1s of reload over I am no longer able to do any damage in battles, before I had an average of 130k of damage now I do 80k 100k and this when I go up ... his AA is not so good, the torpedo is not so long in range, the armor was not good, all he had were the cannons .. Did WG take this to disgrace as a bunch of CW players do not know how to sink 2 Hindenburgs? After so much playing with him, I know he was not there these things ...

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Hindi without questions was nerfed. I own 2,000,000 xp with him and three captains. And I say one thing, today he is taking very significant significant damage to battleships and other ships, before it happened, any salvo of a battleship in it, is a risk of taking a very high citadel. Not to mention that, I want you to do the following: Try to fight a Hindenburg on x1 on the workout map, any cruiser, Zao, Moskva, Des Moines, Henri, will kill you before it reaches less than 5km. At x1 he did not beat cruisers so in the open place, what he had was decent cannons, quick spin, and nice reload, with 1s of reload over I am no longer able to do any damage in battles, before I had an average of 130k of damage now I do 80k 100k and this when I go up ... his AA is not so good, the torpedo is not so long in range, the armor was not good, all he had were the cannons .. Did WG take this to disgrace as a bunch of CW players do not know how to sink 2 Hindenburgs? After so much playing with him, I know he was not there these things ...

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The WG as always is a mercenary, nerfa ships instead of teaching how to sink them ... because a bunch of noobs complain about a ship, they go there and nerfam it, if it is so, why not nerfam soon the cruisers American light? They do not even have a citadel, how can you? do not take citadel of another cruiser nor the stick.

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Hey

I have tried playing the Hindy and am still finding it to be a rough go; it just doesn't take damage like it used to, it doesn't dish out damage like it used to and is just a very under whelming cruiser anymore and it was nothing to see 60-120K but now I am lucky to get 20-60K in it.  I have almost 700K XP on the boat so it's not like I don't have experience in it, but I can't figure out what's changed and it all changed just at the start of the last years clan battles, which is about the time the 1 second ROF Nerf went into play.  It's bad enough that I am contemplating pulling the 19pt captain for something else.  I also have the Roon with a 19pt captain and it's a similar situation but not as noticeable.   Something changed with it, at least for me, night and day difference.

 

Pete

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8 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I have tried playing the Hindy and am still finding it to be a rough go; it just doesn't take damage like it used to, it doesn't dish out damage like it used to and is just a very under whelming cruiser anymore and it was nothing to see 60-120K but now I am lucky to get 20-60K in it.  I have almost 700K XP on the boat so it's not like I don't have experience in it, but I can't figure out what's changed and it all changed just at the start of the last years clan battles, which is about the time the 1 second ROF Nerf went into play.  It's bad enough that I am contemplating pulling the 19pt captain for something else.  I also have the Roon with a 19pt captain and it's a similar situation but not as noticeable.   Something changed with it, at least for me, night and day difference.

 

Pete

Hi Pete, and sorry for the difficulties.

The only recent change was the increase in reload time from 10s to 11s.  I personally haven't found that her performance has declined.  I recently picked up her unique upgrade and have enjoyed it quite a bit.

I have found that the relative newcomer, Republique, has been very effective against all cruisers, including the Hindenburg.  Where I've been able to tank reasonably well against 406mm guns when well-angled, the Republique's 431mm AP, with its excellent penetration characteristics, has been very potent against the Hindenburg, regardless of angling.  I don't know whether engagements with the Republique have been a factor in your recent experience.

The only other consideration is that the Hindenburg is maybe getting more respect since it has been very popular in Clan Battles, and WG did feel compelled to nerf her modestly through the reload change.  Maybe your opponents are focusing you earlier and more regularly than they have in the past?  Just a guess.

Good luck!

Edited by AnIolairGhorm
typo correction
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And yet Worcester and Minotaur topped last month's performance charge for cruisers...

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20 hours ago, Bonfor said:

And yet Worcester and Minotaur topped last month's performance charge for cruisers...

Would you kindly direct us to your source?  Here is lifetime stats for tier-X cruisers from WoWs Numbers.  Worcester is definitely high, but Minotaur is not.  I expect Worcester will decline as more of the user base picks up the ship (i.e., a high ratio of current Worcester players are the more skilled players who moved to it quickly).

 

 

Tier-X Cruisers.png

Edited by AnIolairGhorm
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17 minutes ago, AnIolairGhorm said:

 

Would you kindly direct us to your source?  Here is lifetime stats for tier-X cruisers from WoWs Numbers.  Worcester is definitely high, but Minotaur is not.  I expect Worcester will decline as more of the user base picks up the ship (i.e., a high ratio of current Worcester players are the more skilled players who moved to it quickly).

 

 

Tier-X Cruisers.png

As others have pointed out to me, the lifetime stats are meaningless as ship parameters change over time and they do not give you an idea how each is really performing under the current month's patch.  I'm merely looking at which ships held the damage records for last month: https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/community/hard-score/

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19 minutes ago, Bonfor said:

I'm merely looking at which ships held the damage records for last month: https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/community/hard-score/

I do not consider this to be a good reference.  It only points out that it happened to be a Worcester and Minotaur with the highest single, one-time damage and spotting records for the month among cruisers.  Although unlikely, it could be these same cruisers have had the poorest average stats across all tier-X cruisers for the month.  I'm not sure of a site that offers monthly data across all players and all battles so that we could see trends.

Lifetime stats are meaningful because ships don't change that radically (in fact, they generally improve), and statistical averages wash out exceptions.  The Stalingrad is an exception because those who have this ship are skewed toward (very) strong players.  Therefore, its statistics are not representative of how the ship would perform if in the hands of the general player population.

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On 9/30/2018 at 7:13 PM, AnIolairGhorm said:

I do not consider this to be a good reference.  It only points out that it happened to be a Worcester and Minotaur with the highest single, one-time damage and spotting records for the month among cruisers.  Although unlikely, it could be these same cruisers have had the poorest average stats across all tier-X cruisers for the month.  I'm not sure of a site that offers monthly data across all players and all battles so that we could see trends.

Lifetime stats are meaningful because ships don't change that radically (in fact, they generally improve), and statistical averages wash out exceptions.  The Stalingrad is an exception because those who have this ship are skewed toward (very) strong players.  Therefore, its statistics are not representative of how the ship would perform if in the hands of the general player population.

Here's a better source: https://wows-numbers.com/season/id,10/

This is the current season of Ranked, which represents the most recent versions of each ship...the only T10 cruiser with a worse W/L ratio than the Hindenburg is the Salem, and surprise-surprise, the Stalingrad and Worcester have the best records, followed by the Minotaur:

Hindenburg    Hindenburg Cruiser 7.5% 48.78% 64 081 Leaderboard
Zao    Zao Cruiser 7.1% 49.94% 67 203 Leaderboard
Des Moines    Des Moines Cruiser 6.7% 50.05% 58 170 Leaderboard
Worcester    Worcester Cruiser 4.7% 52.63% 66 540 Leaderboard
Minotaur    Minotaur Cruiser 4.1% 50.52% 51 247 Leaderboard
Moskva    Moskva Cruiser 2.5% 49.49% 58 581 Leaderboard
Henri IV    Henri IV Cruiser 1.6% 50.33% 66 803 Leaderboard
Stalingrad    Stalingrad Cruiser 0.8% 58.64% 82 060 Leaderboard
Salem    Salem Cruiser 0.8% 46.68% 56 516 Leaderboard

 

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1 hour ago, Bonfor said:

This is the current season of Ranked, which represents the most recent versions of each ship...the only T10 cruiser with a worse W/L ratio than the Hindenburg is the Salem, and surprise-surprise, the Stalingrad and Worcester have the best records, followed by the Minotaur

Agreed that radar cruisers have a higher win rate in ranked (even ignoring the Stalingrad) because winning in ranked depends heavily on eliminating the opposing destroyers early.  The Hindenburg is better suited for long-range engagements early in a battle, and then can engage capital ships one-on-one in late game  The Hindenburg is not suitable for early close engagement because its concealment is poor, making it a poor choice to get in close early to hunt destroyers.  As much as I like the Hindenburg, it would not be my first choice for a cruiser to take into ranked.  It would also be useful to see the player performance rating averages for each ship.  For example (rhetorical question since I don't think we have the data), is the Hindenburg seeing a lower win rate in ranked because its played by a higher ratio of less-skilled players?

Early data indicates the Worcester is indeed very effective, and I think that is due to a few factors:

  1. the earlier players that acquire a new tier-10 ship first tend to be among the stronger players, so current lifetime numbers likely reflect performance of stronger players;
  2. power creep we see among new ship/ship lines (how much, I'm uncertain); and
  3. the Worcester has an order of magnitude fewer games played than established ships like the Hindenburg, Des Moines, Zao, and Moskva.  It's yet to be seen whether the statistical difference the Worcester currently sees will hold once the larger player population is sailing the ship.

We're a little off track, however, from the original assertion of this thread.  Trawn_Admiral's original observation is that the nerf on the Hindenburg has steeply compromised is efficacy, but damage numbers don't bear that out, whether one looks at ranked or lifetime stats.

Edited by AnIolairGhorm
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20 minutes ago, AnIolairGhorm said:

We're a little off track, however, from the original assertion of this thread.  Trawn_Admiral's original observation is that the nerf on the Hindenburg has steeply compromised is efficacy, but damage numbers don't bear that out, whether one looks at ranked or lifetime stats.

Damage capability is only one part of a ship's entire performance package, so while WG may have seen the Hindy's damage scaling a little on the high side, other factors such as lack of radar and poor concealment could be dragging its overall performance down, so perhaps they really should have left the ROF alone because the higher damage was mitigating other weaker components of the whole package.  Look at DM in the above chart, for example...10% less damage than a Hindy but a better W/L rate.  Damage alone obviously does not dictate whether a ship can bring home the wins, and don't wins make more of a difference in rewards than pure damage, in Randoms and especially in Ranked?

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34 minutes ago, Bonfor said:

don't wins make more of a difference in rewards than pure damage, in Randoms and especially in Ranked?

Sure, which is why destroyer players can have great win rates because they play the objective well, even if they individually don't do a lot of damage.

Ranked and Random have different metas.  The Hindenburg can be as influential in Random as any other cruiser (it is "random" after all), but is potentially a less valuable cruiser in Ranked.  If you can guarantee she is coupled with other ships to balance capabilities (radar, health, DPM, concealment, etc., etc.), then she's a great compliment.  The problem is that in Ranked, you don't know whether radar and other aspects will be balanced.  A Ranked team with two radar cruisers against a team with two non-radar cruisers is potentially at a substantial advantage, assuming skills are even.

My understanding is that WG implemented the nerf on the Hindenburg because of her performance in Clan Battles, where teams clearly have full control over capability balance.

Don't get me wrong--the Hindenburg is my favorite ship to play, and I was disappointed with the reduction in RoF.  I am, however, rebutting the assertion that her performance has been steeply compromised, and I don't see that it has (whether I look at my own experience or data available to us).

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2 minutes ago, AnIolairGhorm said:

My understanding is that WG implemented the nerf on the Hindenburg because of her performance in Clan Battles, where teams clearly have full control over capability balance.

Don't get me wrong--the Hindenburg is my favorite ship to play, and I was disappointed with the reduction in RoF.  I am, however, rebutting the assertion that her performance has been steeply compromised, and I don't see that it has (whether I look at my own experience or data available to us).

Seems like the Clan tail shouldn't be wagging the performance dog, though...Clan battles run less than half the year by the time you add up the seasons, and of the players that are even in clans, not all of them participate in clan battles.  Since each clan can coordinate what they are bringing, it seems neither team in a clan battle should really have an advantage over the other once a meta has been figured out.  It makes more sense to balance a ship based on the everyday random circumstances it faces rather than the limited engagements that can be mitigated.  I really enjoy the German cruiser line as well, and tend to have better matches in them than in the USN CA line (doing better with the CL line though), so I hope they don't nerf them further.

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16 minutes ago, Bonfor said:

Seems like the Clan tail shouldn't be wagging the performance dog, though...Clan battles run less than half the year by the time you add up the seasons, and of the players that are even in clans, not all of them participate in clan battles.  Since each clan can coordinate what they are bringing, it seems neither team in a clan battle should really have an advantage over the other once a meta has been figured out.  It makes more sense to balance a ship based on the everyday random circumstances it faces rather than the limited engagements that can be mitigated.  I really enjoy the German cruiser line as well, and tend to have better matches in them than in the USN CA line (doing better with the CL line though), so I hope they don't nerf them further.

Yeah, understood--optimize for the most common case.  Kind of true in lots of areas of life.  I just say get out there and let 'em know what KM 203mm AP tastes like.  :Smile_veryhappy:

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