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Lamentations of the Destroyer

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The old ones of the Alpha clan speak of those mythical bloom-free times when the Destroyer ancestors could fire outside of smoke and never be detected. Those of the Beta clan say that this was only a myth but still remember a time when the Destroyer's benevolent smoke hid all sins, so that his teammates (even the lumbering Battleships) could sit inside and fire with impunity with the Destroyer sitting outside and spotting for them, fearing little but an errant shell or torpedo.

Ah, those must have been the days. Now the Destroyer must be wary for radar lurks and can see all. Even islands are no match for the radar's piercing gaze. No longer can the Destroyer spot undetected for the second a radar ship realizes it's detected then it lights up the Destroyer as well. Generally, this results in a glowing symbol appearing before the Destroyer's eyes "(9)." The Destroyer peers at the symbol in wonder for the ten seconds the enemy's shells are in the air, after which he sinks to a watery grave.

If the Destroyer is immensely lucky and there are not five radar ships and a Midway on the opposite team, he might actually spot an enemy undetected. The Destroyer then cries to his  teammates "Look, team, I have spotted an enemy! Please, team, dispatch it!" However, the Destroyer's cries fall on deaf ears because although he sent a "Requesting Support!" call at the first of the match, and received several hearty "Wilcos!" in reply, he now looks around, only to see his erstwhile companions sailing as fast as they can in the opposite direction because they saw that the cap was contested and feared what might lurk within.

The Destroyer thus must battle alone, relying on none himself. If he is lucky, the enemy will be few, his torpedoes true, and he will prevail. This match he was. Will his luck hold out in the next one?

shot-18_07.24_19_48.32-0773.jpg.312a72b4045815549f0e60a0a25ab46d.jpg

The Destroyer is a friendly fellow and is always trying to help his teammates. Unfortunately, the requests for his service are many and constant. "Set a smoke screen!" the Battleship wails instantly upon game start. It does the Destroyer no good to try to tell the Battleship that the enemy is still 30 km away and undetected. "Reported" cries the Battleship and the Destroyer's Karma decreases by one. "I need intelligence data!" howls the Cruiser, even though he has spawned in front of the Destroyer. About all the Destroyer can do is send "Wilco" and hope that the big ships will get distracted, forget about him, and let him do his own thing. Ah, but it is not to be. "Capture Area A!" the Carrier moans. Well, to give the Carrier credit, he is a rear-echelon ship and probably shouldn't be trying to cap himself. However, the Destroyer's pleas for aerial spotting go unheeded. Therefore, he must venture into the cap and hope that the enemy radar is not lurking nearby. Unfortunately, this is not to be and as soon as he starts capping the symbol (9) once again appears. Quick, let loose the torpedoes, randomly in a wide spread, speed boost and turn, then run, wiggle-waggling in an attempt to dodge the myriad shells and try to outrun the radar's range. Will the Destroyer survive? 

Cannon to right of him,
Cannon to left of him,
Cannon behind him
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly he fled and well,
Escaping the jaws of Death,
Fleeing the mouth of Hell
The lone Destroyer

Amazingly, the Destroyer has survived and fled beyond the radar's piercing gaze. However, though grievously wounded, the Destroyer does not run and hide. No, the  Destroyer waits, counting off the seconds. There! The tubes of the nascent radar devices of the enemy have surely burnt out by now and it will be several minutes before the repair crews can replace them. It's time for the Destroyer to advance, hoping that his inherent stealthiness will allow him to get within torpedo range.

Yes! There sails an unwary Battleship, complacently traveling in a straight line. Quickly, before we are spotted, develop a firing solution! But wait a bit before firing. Is the Battleship turning? A close examination reveals not. Fire torpedo rack one, narrow salvo! Fire torpedo rack two, wide salvo. Now turn. Let's get some distance between us and that Battleship, for it's a Missouri and will radar us the minute it sees our torpedoes. 10 km should suffice.

Then wait, and wait. Torpedo hits! Three fish landed from the narrow salvo. The Battleship furiously turns, right, However, his captain has misjudged and another torpedo from the wide salvo hits. However, the Battleship is not dead yet. Assess the area. Are there other ships that can fire on us? Our ship is barely limping along. However, the damage has given our men new purpose and they load much faster than even in training. Load high explosive. The Battleships repair crews are busy with the flooding. Now is the time to set fires.

Look! The Battleship's main guns are pointing the other way and we are outside the range of its secondaries. Fire at will! Shell after shell hits the Battleship. We are detected! Run, but keep the gunfire up. Will a fire start on the Battleship? Our HE shells can do little damage to the mighty Battleship but fire is another matter. Even the mighty leviathans, the Carriers, fear fire. Yes! A fire starts, and then another. We are spotted though by other ships. Silence the guns and run! Use our maneuverability and speed. Speed is our armor now.

 A hit, and then another! We are on fire! Quickly put it out, we can't stand to lose any more health. Finally, we are beyond detection range. All eyes go back to the Battleship, just in time to see an explosion. We have prevailed. However, the team still needs us. Reload the torpedoes men, there still are other big ships to hunt.

Edited by Snargfargle
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6 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

The old ones of the Alpha clan speak of those mythical bloom-free times when the Destroyer ancestors could fire outside of smoke and never be detected. Those of the Beta clan say that this was only a myth but still remember a time when the Destroyer's benevolent smoke hid all sins, so that his teammates (even the lumbering Battleships) could sit inside and fire with impunity with the Destroyer sitting outside and spotting for them, fearing little but an errant shell or torpedo.

Ah, those must have been the days. Now the Destroyer must be wary for radar lurks and can see all. Even islands are no match for the radar's piercing gaze. No longer can the Destroyer spot undetected for the second a radar ship realizes it's detected then it lights up the Destroyer as well. Generally, this results in a glowing symbol appearing before the Destroyer's eyes "(9)." The Destroyer peers at the symbol in wonder for the ten seconds the enemy's shells are in the air, after which he sinks to a watery grave.

If the Destroyer is immensely lucky and there are not five radar ships and a Midway on the opposite team, he might actually spot an enemy undetected. The Destroyer then cries to his  teammates "Look, team, I have spotted an enemy! Please, team, dispatch it!" However, the Destroyer's cries fall on deaf ears because although he sent a "Requesting Support!" call at the first of the match, and received several hearty "Wilcos!" in reply, he now looks around only to see his erstwhile companions sailing as fast as they can in the opposite direction because they say that the cap was contested and feared what might lurk within.

The Destroyer thus must battle alone, relying on none himself. If he is lucky, the enemy will be few, his torpedoes true, and he will prevail. This match he was. Will his luck hold out in the next one?

shot-18_07.24_19_48.32-0773.jpg.312a72b4045815549f0e60a0a25ab46d.jpg

 

Whatever the current problems of DDs, there's still something to be said for playing a piece of history.(I.e, storied ship classes that were actually built and actually served extensively):Smile_honoring:

Edited by legoboy0401
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its-true-all-of-it.jpg

 

Some things needed to change (open water stealth fire and smoke), but not nearly as harsh as they did (the ranges are a bit much on smoke nerf, and well, ships should have times detected based on guns size, so most DD's only a matter of a few seconds, with the bigger BB guns being 20+). Some however, shouldn't have changed - such as one thing very few remember - even though there's a cap video on it, when smoke was not all concealing - unless you turned your AA off. DD, BB, didn't matter, used to have your AA on, you were spotted in smoke. 

 

Then again, a lot has been lost that few recall. The above stated. Japanese torpedoes that aren't over nerfed (short of encountering the kami clone premiums). Carriers dealing 200k+ damage without manual drop (because it wasn't an option and AA was admittedly too weak at the time). DD's with citadels. Alternate drop patterns for USN and IJN planes. USN DB's actually being useful and potentially devastating (partially cause of DD citadels, partially cause of better accuracy and lower AA). BB's being slow, lumbering targets (you think they turn slow now, oh boy would you have hated it before). Slightly different ramming mechanics (not just touch and explode). More real variety to sinking animations, especially rams as usually, especially things like BB vs DD/cruiser, would split the ship in two around the contact point center, bow, or stern depending where you hit. I believe at one point when ships went down you had bits of things floating about like the boats or rafts, something I'd like to return, or be done so lower graphics settings see it. 

 

“And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth." - J. R.R. Tolkien

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9 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

(short of encountering the kami clone premiums).

It's funny, but when Fujin, first of the Kami sisters to make an appearance, was introduced into the game most players said "MEH" and let her go. Minikaze had 10 K torps, and better speed, and the ONLY thing Fujin did better was it had slightly better turret rotation, on a ship which no one ever thought was a gunboat. 

Now players curse her and call her OP, but her stats haven'y changed a bit, except for her gun range being extended to 8.7 K from 7 K during the OWSF removal debacle, when most DDs had their gun ranges boosted to make them MORE detectable. And, also, remember that the only radar ships a Kami will ever see have radar ranges 1.8 K further than a Kami's torps can travel, which means that the radar cruiser automatically gets a warning when they are spotted. 

So ... yeah ... they're totally OP.

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As someone who has technically been about since CBT (through watching a friend and them letting me play when they wanted a laugh) the magic days of being able to fire without being seen were not good days for anyone but the tin cans. 

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You know I am tored of hear dd players complain about everything. They complain that bb shells hit them and do damage they complain about radar radar radar. I never her you complane about sittinf I. Smoke with no radad around for miles and you just shooting away. I never hear you complane that radar last for 40 sec while smoke lasts for 2 min.

No just fix my ship I should be damage by anything

My world how is it that I never hear cl or cv players constantly complain like dd and bb players do.

The game has changed adapt or do somthing else.

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You know what I'M tired of? ENTITLED PLAYERSTROLLS LIKE YOU! GO AWAY.

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1 hour ago, Umikami said:

It's funny, but when Fujin, first of the Kami sisters to make an appearance, was introduced into the game most players said "MEH" and let her go. Minikaze had 10 K torps, and better speed, and the ONLY thing Fujin did better was it had slightly better turret rotation, on a ship which no one ever thought was a gunboat. 

Now players curse her and call her OP, but her stats haven'y changed a bit, except for her gun range being extended to 8.7 K from 7 K during the OWSF removal debacle, when most DDs had their gun ranges boosted to make them MORE detectable. And, also, remember that the only radar ships a Kami will ever see have radar ranges 1.8 K further than a Kami's torps can travel, which means that the radar cruiser automatically gets a warning when they are spotted. 

So ... yeah ... they're totally OP.

It's simple really - 68 knots, 14400 damage, 1.4 km spotted range. 66 knots, 19033 damage, 10.2 km, 1.4 spotting range. First set is Fujin, second is Fletcher. Or, in other words - good, solid, useable torps. She represents what IJN used to be - feared battleship hunters. But with slightly better guns - still not a great idea to engage in a gun battle though. When hydro was rare, and radar not even a thought, yeah, Minekaze with the 10 km version that were basically tier 9 torps at tier 5 - it was a bit much, especially cause it had I think as fast or faster reload (I know Fujin is around 47 seconds). Plus, it's low detection range. I've managed matches where the reds never see me. Bigger issue was always Shima, with the stealthier version of the "wall of skill". But yeah, it and Mine were both OP back in the day, but, as with any ship, power creep has lowered it's effectiveness as well. Still incredibly lethal, but not quite her former level.

 

Why I say really just even lower the detecion radius of the IJN torps to be in line with other nations, even if our torps are still slower than the old days they would at least be easier to use because as is, IJN torps in the torp boat line range between a 1.5-1.6 spotted range, even when a similar tier DD (aka Fletcher vs Yugumo) has almost identical stats, and even more torps, but gets better spotting range. Give IJN the same 1.3-1.4 other nations do with similar torp speeds, and we can do work cause that is a massive difference. Case in point - Mutsuki with current torps at a speed of 63 knots, 1.6 km spotting range using the formula on the wiki leaves 9.7 seconds to react. Drop that to 1.4, it becomes 8.5 seconds to react. Still more than the 7.9 seconds fujin leaves. Still more than the almost impossible (the right angle Farragut still can) to stealth torp with Farragut at 7.8 seconds. Of the Mahan that can stealth torp, and leaves only 7.6 seconds to react. 

 

I'm far from a DD main, hell, I'm a BB/CV main - I have the most reason to see these nerfed into oblivion, especially IJN. But even I have to say they went too far on IJN's torp nerfs. Even if they keep the speed nerfs to the torps, they at least need to drop the spotted range to be in line with the other nations at 1.3 and 1.4 when around the 60+ knot mark. When the line built around torps has less effective torps than lines built around guns, or a better balance, that constitutes a problem in my book. Especially since Pan Asia DD's have much better guns, allowing them to deal with DD's still, similar stealth torp ability, faster torp reload, and range between about 5-6.6 seconds to react to torps. 

lowering the average reaction time to IJN DD torps to about 8.5 seconds, not going to break the game and something Wargaming should have done ages ago. Hell, I'd say given the at best "meh" nature of IJN guns, even lower closer to Fletchers 8.15 seconds or as you get closer to tier 7/8 Fujin's 7.9 is more than reasonable.

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I suspect the fix to 'BB AP' may come even before the carrier rework, and likewise a possible change to radar.

Sadly that doesn't fill me with much hope.

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3 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

The Destroyer thus must battle alone, relying on no one but himself. If he is lucky, the enemy will be few, his torpedoes true, and he will prevail. This match he was. Will his luck hold out in the next one?

Exactly. A dd captain must be cunning, taking into account most predictable variables and seek opportunities to punish all-comers, whether radar CAs, Smart CVs, or like minded DD captains.

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1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

Minekaze with the 10 km version that were basically tier 9 torps at tier 5

Nah ... Furry Taco still has those torps. They are more like the 9.2 K Sims torps,  S  L  O  W  ! 

1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

(I know Fujin is around 47 seconds)

Actually 40, and if you think keeping a red ship within 7 K and further than 5.4K for 40 seconds is easy, you're mistaken.

1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

Especially since Pan Asia DD's have much better guns, allowing them to deal with DD's still, similar stealth torp ability, faster torp reload, and range between about 5-6.6 seconds to react to torps.

The PA DD lines biggest asset is it's smoke, which lasts longer and has more charges, and the fact that its torps are less detectable. 

1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

lowering the average reaction time to IJN DD torps to about 8.5 seconds, not going to break the game and something Wargaming should have done ages ago.

All nations torps should have the same detection range, which should be the same as the minimum drop distance CV torps enjoy. Why should DD torps be spotted from orbit and CV torps magically appear 0.5 K away from your ship. 

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4 minutes ago, Umikami said:

All nations torps should have the same detection range, which should be the same as the minimum drop distance CV torps enjoy. Why should DD torps be spotted from orbit and CV torps magically appear 0.5 K away from your ship. 

.8km is the minimal arming distance, non TA. 1.0km with TA. The actual detection I believe is 1.6km. Also half the damage...

Edited by Cpt_Cupcake
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10 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

.8km is the minimal arming distance, non TA. 1.0km with TA. The actual detection I believe is 1.6km. Also half the damage...

And with upgrades and skills some IJN torps can be spotted from 2.4 K away. And they have half the damage because they have to be carried by planes and not ships, which doesn't matter in the least when you have no time to dodge them. I'd be very happy if every torp in the game had a detection distance of 1.0 K, with no skills or upgrades to buff that higher. DDs already have players notified when they detect someone, which blows your stealth approach right out the window, as well as RFD so that the red team knows in which direction you're coming from. But, hey; who actually wanted to sink someone with these things anyw3ays?

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17 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Nah ... Furry Taco still has those torps. They are more like the 9.2 K Sims torps,  S  L  O  W  ! 

Actually 40, and if you think keeping a red ship within 7 K and further than 5.4K for 40 seconds is easy, you're mistaken.

The PA DD lines biggest asset is it's smoke, which lasts longer and has more charges, and the fact that its torps are less detectable. 

All nations torps should have the same detection range, which should be the same as the minimum drop distance CV torps enjoy. Why should DD torps be spotted from orbit and CV torps magically appear 0.5 K away from your ship. 

You mean those torpedoes dropped from those planes you saw coming from 10km away?

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1 minute ago, Palladia said:

You mean those torpedoes dropped from those planes you saw coming from 10km away?

No, I mean those torps dropped from planes which appear closer than any ship fired torp in the game, planes which maneuver faster than any ship in the game, and can magically drop them right next to islands and right next to ships which cannot turn to avoid them; those torps. ALL torps should have the same detection range as the minimum drop distance for CV torps.

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1 minute ago, Umikami said:

And with upgrades and skills some IJN torps can be spotted from 2.4 K away. And they have half the damage because they have to be carried by planes and not ships, which doesn't matter in the least when you have no time to dodge them. I'd be very happy if every torp in the game had a detection distance of 1.0 K, with no skills or upgrades to buff that higher.

I didn't come here to debate on behalf of either for or against, I just stopped by to provide information. I tend to abstain from threads on topics repetitively discussed, some times in quick succession of each other within the span of a single hour...

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2 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

I didn't come here to debate on behalf of either for or against, I just stopped by to provide information. I tend to abstain from threads on topics repetitively discussed, some times in quick succession of each other within the span of a single hour...

So what you're saying is that you have nothing constructive to add you just wanted to stir the pot up a bit?

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Just now, Umikami said:

No, I mean those torps dropped from planes which appear closer than any ship fired torp in the game, planes which maneuver faster than any ship in the game, and can magically drop them right next to islands and right next to ships which cannot turn to avoid them; those torps. ALL torps should have the same detection range as the minimum drop distance for CV torps.

One last tidbit before I abscond to retire for the night, can the DD's torps be destroyed before it make contact? If not, I feel the analogy might not be accurate. Like wise, as someone mentioned, the planes are often a good indicator that an attack may occur in the near future... something that even the shims 20km torps have an advantage over. Particularly if you take in account most BBs' rudder shift times are above 10 seconds.

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3 minutes ago, Umikami said:

No, I mean those torps dropped from planes which appear closer than any ship fired torp in the game, planes which maneuver faster than any ship in the game, and can magically drop them right next to islands and right next to ships which cannot turn to avoid them; those torps. ALL torps should have the same detection range as the minimum drop distance for CV torps.

No,  you mean those torpedoes dropped from that plane you KNEW was coming.  That you could have actively worked to avoid or mitigate.  They don't just 'magically appear' .8km,  you seem them coming from a literal mile away.   When we have a way to actively stop torpedoes from up to 7km out with something similar to the automatic design of AA then you can have undodgeable torpedoes.  In the mean time,  learn to deal with CV's or stick near your cruisers.

Also you realize that DD's have virtually no minimum arming range for their torpedoes,  right? Oh,  but you're too busy whining about those planes dropping off the side of islands.  Pot,  meet kettle.

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3 minutes ago, Umikami said:

So what you're saying is that you have nothing constructive to add you just wanted to stir the pot up a bit?

You provided misinformation, I corrected it. Sorry that it unsettled you. Have a good night, sincerely.

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2 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

can the DD's torps be destroyed before it make contact?

Yes, if they hit a ship that was just sunk, or an island, etc.

3 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

Like wise, as someone mentioned, the planes are often a good indicator that an attack may occur in the near future... something that even the shims 20km torps have an advantage over.

Who are you kidding? You get both a visual (little triangles) and aural (audio warning) for all DD torps. Do you get a warning of any type that says, "Air dropped torps are coming?" Like I said, planes move faster and are much more maneuverable than any ship in the game.

5 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

Particularly if you take in account most BBs' rudder shift times are above 10 seconds.

Yeah, and there are upgrades and skills for that, too. And they have a much greater time dodging CV torps than they do DD torps.

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12 minutes ago, Palladia said:

8km

8 K in this game is literally just a second or two.

12 minutes ago, Palladia said:

Also you realize that DD's have virtually no minimum arming range for their torpedoes,  right?

Completely false; the arming distance is the same and displayed whenever you toggle your torps.

12 minutes ago, Palladia said:

When we have a way to actively stop torpedoes from up to 7km out with something similar to the automatic design of AA then you can have undodgeable torpedoes.

ALL torps should have the same detection range, including those dropped from CVs. What is fair for one type of ship should be fair for all types of ships.

Can't wait for the CV rework and they finally balance these ships.

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12 hours ago, Umikami said:

Nah ... Furry Taco still has those torps. They are more like the 9.2 K Sims torps,  S  L  O  W  ! 

There have been so many damned changes I've lost track. I've spent the last hour trying to look stuff up because I was pretty sure at some point the cruiser torps were clipped as well as the DD ones. Can't find anything with her pre-5.15 stats and equipment - but there is one thing I did find which, even without the 10 km range (albeit I was fairly sure her 10 km torps were the exact same as Kami clones just a different range), however there is one thing I did find. 

• Changed the technical characteristics of the Type 92 torpedoes:

  • Torpedo speed reduced (from 68 to 57 knots)
  • Damage by a torpedo was decreased (from 14,400 to 10,833 points)
  • Reload time of torpedo tubes was reduced (from 47 to 42 seconds)

From the 5.15 patch notes, so, even if it's a case of it had access to these in the same 7 km range as the Kami clones, still talking similar performance to tier 9 torps, beyond damage and range. Somewhere else in there they changed the type 92's to type 8's. But I remember Minekaze playing almost the exact same as Fujin/Kami R, but, until I can find the old torp stats, if that's even possible, can't prove that the high speed torps had the 10 km range on Mine. 

12 hours ago, Umikami said:

Actually 40, and if you think keeping a red ship within 7 K and further than 5.4K for 40 seconds is easy, you're mistaken.

Just looked in game - Fujin and mine (no captain) are 42 and 47 seconds, roughly 38 and 42 with a captain with torp reload skill. Also funny you say that because  -

PPS3sl8.jpg

That bit of potential damage is I think getting spotted once by the Pod in Kami R - the entire rest of the match - which is actually where I racked up the real damage, I was never seen. And if I was, only briefly that I don't recall and barely counts. More radar may have made it trickier, but, not that hard if you use your head and pay attention. I'm not exactly the greatest player.

12 hours ago, Umikami said:

All nations torps should have the same detection range, which should be the same as the minimum drop distance CV torps enjoy. Why should DD torps be spotted from orbit and CV torps magically appear 0.5 K away from your ship. 

Less than 0.5km  if manual drop is done right is when they appear. To be exact, 0.2 km as the approximate range of the torpedoes resurfacing to running depth for all CV's is .6 km roughly, and so most manual drops are done at roughly 1 km. As that accounts for maneuvering into the drop.  IJN's range might be slightly closer, I know the resurface time was at one point it was back up within .5 km, which when manual drop was added made it insane. However, knowing USN's, Lexington's TB's drop a torpedo that deals just under 10k damage, travels at 34 knots for 3.7 km. Auto drop range is maybe 1/2-2/3rds of that, the 3.5 seconds it takes to get to the surface (it's a fixed timer, not a range one, so torp accel needs to drop a bit further out, still around that same km also compensates for that) gets it back to the surface roughly .6 km after the drop. So, best case scenario (half range) they are spotted roughly 1.2 km away - Same range as the current Minekaze torps, but less range and way slower, over 20 knots. Worst case, it's roughly 2/3rds, which would be about 2.4 km, meaning they are spotted 1.8 km out at 34 knots, and that is the same as the 10 km torps on Yugumo with more than double the speed. Drop further out, they are spotted soon as the surface so even more. So, yeah, even take in manual drop, which is basically around the range PA DD enjoy, otherwise auto drop is way slower torps with similar spotting ranges, and, added bonus the true spotted range of TB torps is really 8 km, cause unlike many DD's, at 8 km the planes are visible, you know it's coming and hey, you have automated defenses to wear it down.

Asking for torps to be visible on the enemy doorstep for a DD is unreasonable and before you say it, yeah, it's unreasonable for CV's too. And back in the beta, maybe, we could have simply gotten rid of manual drop, but, now we have the issues of overbuffed AA - meaning we need it for longer range drops, DD players cried so much AA spotting in smoke was removed, for all ships, so, now we need it to hit ships in smoke period, and with the way some of these maps are designed and where people hide, we need closer ranges to hit them in their hidey hole s well as the fact all ships are way more nimble than in Beta. And I'm the one CV player that has always acknowledged Manual drops are broken, and while we can't really get rid of them, I've been saying only way to keep it and not be nearly as broken is to nerf the damage, significantly. Like, 60-80% significant. Depending on the exact number reduced to, you MIGHT one shot a DD if you hit it with every torp. good luck on that. Doubtful it'll one shot a cruiser baring a det, and no way in hell vs a BB without a det. So, you wanna trade 60-80% of current DD torp damage for "can't see it till it hits you" spotting range - sure, by all means, lets do it to CV's and DD's both, I'm game. But if you want the 8 km the planes are spotted at that might as well be the torp spotting range, gonna have to say no. But between that broken mechanic, and that plane spotting range, the good old standard auto drop - it already has comparable ranges to DD's on torp spotting with even slower torps than them.

12 hours ago, Umikami said:

Can't wait for the CV rework and they finally balance these ships.

From they first appeared in Alpha, Wrgaming has been incapable of fixing them as is. Before these idiotic changes to USN, and adding back an OP setup to Midway and botching all THAT stuff, it may have been a lot of fixes, but not exactly complex ones. Lower USN DPS a bit, up it's ammo some, up it's HP some, increase IJN's DPS a bit, a little less ammo maybe, fighters are more equaled out, with IJN having a slight edge at the start and USN having the edge long term in your basic point and click battle. Given USN loses less DPS with losses and has more ammo. And can better endure AA. That's fighters basically solved beyond changing USN and IJN AS and strike setups to have balanced fighter group numbers (so Lex and Sho's 2 setups would be, 2,x,x and 1,x,x). Decrease the damage of torps significantly, again, around 60-80% - we keep manual drops, we don't one shot ships with just the TB's. Give tier 5-7 ships later AA modifications that they got (such as NM getting the ones it's 2 sisters had, or a ship like Texas), while reducing the AA damage of tier 8-10 ships a bit, buff the HP of at least the lower tier attack aircraft, possibly the upper tier USN DB's - or leave high tier AA untouched and simply buff USN DB'sand the low tier aircraft, which allows for AA and plane HP to scale easier and not have insane jumps, so that we have lower tier CV's able to actually attack higher tier CV's, with less catastrophic losses, but higher tier CV's no longer bully and waltz through lower tier AA. Dial in the ring for USN HE DB's to about 110x300 +/- a few meters, and lower their damage a little. This should still leave DD's fairly hard to hit still, and even if they are, not as hard as now, while increasing hits against cruisers, BB's, and CV's, which, combined with direct damage from hits, and an ability to get through AA for a change without being top tier against lower tier, allows for stacking fires, meaning USN can do more consistent damage, even with a 2,0,2 setup, it's just done over time not instantly like IJN can be. May be a bit more instant vs lighter ships. Meaning Midway, with 2,1,3 as the strike again, can still deal damage fairly reliably. Also meaning we give Essex and Midway tier 9 and 10 TB's back (and because I forgot above, fighters). Strafing is brokenly OP, it's modifier has to be at least 3-4x damage. Knock it back down to 1.2-1.5x max (20-50% DPS boost) that maybe knocks a couple planes down, but requires some level of timing still to debuff bombers as they attack not delete them 15 km out. Maybe even make the debuff a time delay so bombers strafed have the accuracy penalty for say, 20 seconds, give or take. Make "emergency Takeoff" a mechanic (because at one time CV's could do that with no penalty or skill, and we weren't totally defenseless cause someone got a lucky fire on the ship) and make the skill something that reduces the penalty so that 's actually usable, and not faster to simply buy DCP II's. Hak has always had too few planes, reverse the Midway hanger nerf, give Hak about 20 planes (gives it roughly same reload ratio as Midway, which is what the nerf to Midway did).

I feel like I'm missing something, but that's at least most of it, most of it is simply changing numbers in the programming, then testing them for tweaks either direction. The only things really labor intensive is changing the ship models or adding hulls, or coming up with some fake upgrades to AA. Somewhere I have notes I wrote up in a 30 minute car ride that at least covers damage changes, accuracy on DB's, HP of planes, and DPS of planes for Lex and Shokaku. Only reason ammo isn't included is I don't understand what the number means, seconds of ammo, some other random thing, what. 

And your really going to trust whatever beyond top secret rework they won't tell us a damned thing about other than that they are basically reinventing the wheel are going to actually balance it? The guys that botched Graf Zeppelin, hard, 3 times. That thought Saipan was balanced? That when the CV community basically screamed at them "USN fighters are too strong, and the DB's have been nerfed to oblivion with all the AA increases" to improve the ailing at the time USN line - buffed fighter ammo and did nothing to DB's? They have proven at best incapable of fixing a system they came up with even with players telling them what is wrong and you honestly think that staring from scratch with a brand new system they will be able to actually balance them?

Edited by WanderingGhost

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15 hours ago, TheNargacuga said:

As someone who has technically been about since CBT (through watching a friend and them letting me play when they wanted a laugh) the magic days of being able to fire without being seen were not good days for anyone but the tin cans. 

sure but was the easiest thing in the world to stop all you needed was a spotter I never had a prob stopping OWSF only idiots did or those that let all of there vision die off and deserved to have it happen to them

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