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Herr_Reitz

Destroyers afraid to destroy? News at 11!

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Observational items here... could be because I'm looking for it. Could be that it's actually there, happening. You'll have to add your two cents. 

My observation: Destroyers are becoming very passive, "so it seems" in random battles.

It's to the point where I won't even follow a Shima towards any point. All they do is drop torps and move away from cap. It is very "rare" these days, to see a Shima actually work a cap let alone take it. I've seen many a gun-boat dd just roll around a cruiser or battleship with no intention of even getting near a cap. 

Believe me I understand - radar every where. If not radar you got hydro for the close in action. Toss in fighter planes, torpedo bombers and of course dive bombers. Oh - and let's not forget RDF/RDP. It's a rough environment for sure. 

But you know this when you chose to play a destroyer, didn't you? 

Every ship in a game is after you because you are a destroyer. Best stealth in the game (usually) with some heavy hitting power. Who wouldn't want to sink you?  It's why there is so much stacked up against you. It seems these days the game is very DD-centric, towards sinking them. 

But why is it then the red team's destroyers seal off three caps while the green team runs around indecisively, unsure of what action to take, taking none, no caps, no kills and before you know it, red team rolls over the green team? Lack of support? Can't be as you're in the midst of the fleet. 

I'm genuinely interested in the how/why of that scenario. Green team's destroyers lay back. Red team's play towards spotting and caps. If we can keep it civil that'd be great. Just trying to imagine how it happens. tiafyc

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You answered your own question, why the thread?

EDIT: Specifically

13 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Observational items here... could be because I'm looking for it. Could be that it's actually there, happening. You'll have to add your two cents. 

My observation: Destroyers are becoming very passive, "so it seems" in random battles.

It's to the point where I won't even follow a Shima towards any point. All they do is drop torps and move away from cap. It is very "rare" these days, to see a Shima actually work a cap let alone take it. I've seen many a gun-boat dd just roll around a cruiser or battleship with no intention of even getting near a cap. 

Believe me I understand - radar every where. If not radar you got hydro for the close in action. Toss in fighter planes, torpedo bombers and of course dive bombers. Oh - and let's not forget RDF/RDP. It's a rough environment for sure. 

But you know this when you chose to play a destroyer, didn't you? 

Every ship in a game is after you because you are a destroyer. Best stealth in the game (usually) with some heavy hitting power. Who wouldn't want to sink you?  It's why there is so much stacked up against you. It seems these days the game is very DD-centric, towards sinking them. 

But why is it then the red team's destroyers seal off three caps while the green team runs around indecisively, unsure of what action to take, taking none, no caps, no kills and before you know it, red team rolls over the green team? Lack of support? Can't be as you're in the midst of the fleet. 

I'm genuinely interested in the how/why of that scenario. Green team's destroyers lay back. Red team's play towards spotting and caps. If we can keep it civil that'd be great. Just trying to imagine how it happens. tiafyc

Edited by w4spl3g
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6 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Green team's destroyers lay back. Red team's play towards spotting and caps.

Clearly one team's destroyers are having a good day, so the "It's so hard to be a destroyer!!!" argument falls flat at that point. Are the enemy team's destroyers divisioned? Are they possibly even not divisioned yet still co-ordinating in voice chat? Or did Matchmaker somehow decide in all its RNG-ish wisdom that you were lacking in potatoes and needed a few? :Smile_hiding: It's not just destroyers either; I have seen identical lack of fortitude in other ship types as well.

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Destroyer is actually a contraction. The original term was Torpedo Boat Destroyer.

There are a few small differences between torpedo boats and battleships. But why dwell on a typical captains intelligence?

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Radar is so controlling of high tier destroyers that it can literally determine games. A consumible that can determine games. That's ridiculous, there are many consumables that influence the game (like hydro and heal) but the power of radar is too controlling. The problem is the duration. 40 or 50 seconds is far too long especially when 3 or more ships have at least 3 radars each. 

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2 hours ago, w4spl3g said:

You answered your own question, why the thread?

Because it is only MY observation. I'm quite biased these days. Specifically, I've seen far too many passive dd players on my team. My bias may be corrupting my observations. Hence I want other people to tell me if they are seeing the same things. 

If we are as a group, then surely WoWS/WG must be seeing it as well. My logical, hoped for conclusion would then be some type of counter to all the threats, adjustments, something to maintain the balance. 

However it seems more along the lines of an individual player. Hope that explains why I wrote the thread. 

2 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Clearly one team's destroyers are having a good day, so the "It's so hard to be a destroyer!!!" argument falls flat at that point. Are the enemy team's destroyers divisioned? Are they possibly even not divisioned yet still co-ordinating in voice chat? Or did Matchmaker somehow decide in all its RNG-ish wisdom that you were lacking in potatoes and needed a few? :Smile_hiding: It's not just destroyers either; I have seen identical lack of fortitude in other ship types as well.

Hey, no divs, but they could be chatting. No way of knowing if they are, right. 

And agree, it's not just dds, but dds are the most noticeable. 

2 hours ago, CarbonButtprint said:

Radar is so controlling of high tier destroyers that it can literally determine games. A consumible that can determine games. That's ridiculous, there are many consumables that influence the game (like hydro and heal) but the power of radar is too controlling. The problem is the duration. 40 or 50 seconds is far too long especially when 3 or more ships have at least 3 radars each. 

This is I think what I'm wondering - can/will WoWS/WG tweak things like this? Maybe range as well? 

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2 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Hey, no divs, but they could be chatting. No way of knowing if they are, right.

If I had voice chat going with a couple of friends, I would be tempted NOT to form a division. When ships division, it gives warning to the other side that co-ordinated play is to be expected. Let the other side think you are just random noobs... :cap_haloween:

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2 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Because it is only MY observation. I'm quite biased these days. Specifically, I've seen far too many passive dd players on my team. My bias may be corrupting my observations. Hence I want other people to tell me if they are seeing the same things. 

If we are as a group, then surely WoWS/WG must be seeing it as well. My logical, hoped for conclusion would then be some type of counter to all the threats, adjustments, something to maintain the balance. 

However it seems more along the lines of an individual player. Hope that explains why I wrote the thread. 

 

I main DDs, and I generally play aggressively, but you're dead in the first 2 or 3 minutes of the game these days because of all the radar if you push hard and guess wrong. It's exceedingly difficult to push caps especially with BBs and CA/CL all sitting in the back behind islands. If anything I"d say the other classes are massively more passive in general. I've played multiple games even in the last 2 days where I was the only one taking caps at all. Less experienced DDs are more likely to be overly passive because they don't understand positioning, how to attempt to bait red torpedos/radar or feign locations, etc. All they know is, they push a cap, they get radared to death. Who doesn't fire at a DD first when they're lit up? The only time is if there is a CV visible.

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5 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

This is I think what I'm wondering - can/will WoWS/WG tweak things like this? Maybe range as well? 

Get into a DD and show everyone how it's done. Report back with your findings after 100 DD games.

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Having been repeatedly berated yesterday in my Kiev play-style....and coming in top 4 in those matches...

Opinions are like A-Hulls.  Every ship has one and they all stink.     (oh!!   new sig line !!!!)

Clan battles have taught me to be aggressive ENOUGH..   Too aggressive and it's a suicide charge (works great for the Derski), but not in a T10 battle.

Detection distance is not enough.  Being out exposed within a cruiser's radar range is also playing Russian Roulette.

That's not to mention the cruisers that are ducked behind islands and inside smoke.

...

I guess it takes a good cruiser operator to have a proper feel of the current destroyer problems.

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I asked that question  a few weeks ago under the topic  of 

Is DD's going the way of the Cv's 

One side has a good DD driver and the other doesn't 

Who is going to win ?

The skill needed to play upper tiers is bigger now then ever, alot of us dd mains don't want to play it anymore leaving  only newer players to fill the ranks

So have fun with it and sorry if the other side has the better CV or dd drivers

 You reap what you sow you want to cap go do it  After you clear out all the radar 1st

Edited by silverdahc
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32 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Observational items here... could be because I'm looking for it. Could be that it's actually there, happening. You'll have to add your two cents. 

My observation: Destroyers are becoming very passive, "so it seems" in random battles.

It's to the point where I won't even follow a Shima towards any point. All they do is drop torps and move away from cap. It is very "rare" these days, to see a Shima actually work a cap let alone take it. I've seen many a gun-boat dd just roll around a cruiser or battleship with no intention of even getting near a cap. 

Believe me I understand - radar every where. If not radar you got hydro for the close in action. Toss in fighter planes, torpedo bombers and of course dive bombers. Oh - and let's not forget RDF/RDP. It's a rough environment for sure. 

But you know this when you chose to play a destroyer, didn't you? 

Every ship in a game is after you because you are a destroyer. Best stealth in the game (usually) with some heavy hitting power. Who wouldn't want to sink you?  It's why there is so much stacked up against you. It seems these days the game is very DD-centric, towards sinking them. 

But why is it then the red team's destroyers seal off three caps while the green team runs around indecisively, unsure of what action to take, taking none, no caps, no kills and before you know it, red team rolls over the green team? Lack of support? Can't be as you're in the midst of the fleet. 

I'm genuinely interested in the how/why of that scenario. Green team's destroyers lay back. Red team's play towards spotting and caps. If we can keep it civil that'd be great. Just trying to imagine how it happens. tiafyc

 Be careful this is just gonna be swept into the DD garbage thread And forgotten about by the WG

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2 hours ago, legozer said:

Get into a DD and show everyone how it's done. Report back with your findings after 100 DD games.

I have a few thousand dd games. Here's the last match. We had an awesome team. Totally random. Our dds were aggressive. In fact the top player was another Gearing. 

shot-18_07.24_11_09.55-0325.thumb.jpg.d12556f7c5b4222f0b537300ccb694ef.jpg

 

 

 

2 hours ago, silverdahc said:

 Be careful this is just gonna be swept into the DD garbage thread And forgotten about by the WG

You're probably correct as it will classify as not positive, something something closed.

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I don't understand this Radar thing. I just got back into playing DDs and as long as you position yourself correctly it's a minor inconvenience. 

I find planes to be much worse as they can keep you spotted way longer and if the CV is spotting you on purpose there's no escape.

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Just now, silverdahc said:

Is DD's going the way of the Cv's 

One side has a good DD driver and the other doesn't 

Who is going to win ?

Yes, but its more than just that.  It seems more and more of the average DD players are going back to lower tiers.  They will club the DD newbies and drive them to another ship type, or out of the game all together.  Its the CV clubbing problem all over again.  

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4 minutes ago, Sir_Orrin said:

I just got back into playing DDs

Lol.... then you fully do not understand the problem.

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Well. We players that have more then 500 games in DD and grinded thoseships back in the day and love the playstyle of the DD sure knew that there were gonna be something called radar in the game and even some odd ship would have hydro. And we knew that we would be the bane of the ocean and focused bu all when we got spotted.

So we dealed with it and adjusted our playstyle to those facts.

But today, 2-3 years later. WG has gone full [edited] in supplying radar, hydros, spotter planes, double spotter plane cap skills, special upgrade radar and hydros that lasts for 4-5 minutes and i havent even mentioned the enemy DDs and CVs......

We have new US cruiser line flooding the servers resulting in 2 radars covering every cap on the map! We have new DD killing CAs like Wooster that can punsch a 55 sec radar the same second you spot him in open waters and then BLAP you with crapton of HE for a minute.

And you wonder why DD players has gotten passive?!

DD players play passive in start of the round because they want to know where tha radars is before they suicide in to a cap.

What you see is DD players yet again adjusting to the situation WG has created in the game.

So if u want a DD to suicide in to the cap next time, why dont you join him? He sure would appriciate the company.

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3 minutes ago, LadyAnesjka said:

Lol.... then you fully do not understand the problem.

I don't think you fully understand my backround. DDs used to be my second most played class, and by recently got back into them I mean I've been playing High Tier DD's again for a solid month. Just because I know how to deal with Radar and don't complain about it on the forums does not mean I "don't understand the problem."

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56 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Observational items here... could be because I'm looking for it. Could be that it's actually there, happening. You'll have to add your two cents. 

My observation: Destroyers are becoming very passive, "so it seems" in random battles.

It's to the point where I won't even follow a Shima towards any point. All they do is drop torps and move away from cap. It is very "rare" these days, to see a Shima actually work a cap let alone take it. I've seen many a gun-boat dd just roll around a cruiser or battleship with no intention of even getting near a cap. 

Believe me I understand - radar every where. If not radar you got hydro for the close in action. Toss in fighter planes, torpedo bombers and of course dive bombers. Oh - and let's not forget RDF/RDP. It's a rough environment for sure. 

But you know this when you chose to play a destroyer, didn't you? 

Every ship in a game is after you because you are a destroyer. Best stealth in the game (usually) with some heavy hitting power. Who wouldn't want to sink you?  It's why there is so much stacked up against you. It seems these days the game is very DD-centric, towards sinking them. 

But why is it then the red team's destroyers seal off three caps while the green team runs around indecisively, unsure of what action to take, taking none, no caps, no kills and before you know it, red team rolls over the green team? Lack of support? Can't be as you're in the midst of the fleet. 

I'm genuinely interested in the how/why of that scenario. Green team's destroyers lay back. Red team's play towards spotting and caps. If we can keep it civil that'd be great. Just trying to imagine how it happens. tiafyc

When I play my dds I'm not afraid to go in with guns blazing lol.  Radar is OVER RATED!!

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1 minute ago, torpsRus said:

When I play my dds I'm not afraid to go in with guns blazing lol.  Radar is OVER RATED!!

This guy gets it.

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48 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Clearly one team's destroyers are having a good day, so the "It's so hard to be a destroyer!!!" argument falls flat at that point. Are the enemy team's destroyers divisioned? Are they possibly even not divisioned yet still co-ordinating in voice chat? Or did Matchmaker somehow decide in all its RNG-ish wisdom that you were lacking in potatoes and needed a few? :Smile_hiding: It's not just destroyers either; I have seen identical lack of fortitude in other ship types as well.

I have seen both team have Destroyer issues often enough.

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Just now, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I have seen both team have Destroyer issues often enough.

 Me to  That's why I've been  cruisers lately and watching dd's get their butts kicked

Sad to see it

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Just now, silverdahc said:

 Me to  That's why I've been  cruisers lately and watching dd's get their butts kicked

Sad to see it

That is why I play Cruisers and BBs that are fast enough and heavily armed enough to escort the DDs and attempt to kill the Radar cruisers for them. Working on trying to expand my collection of ships capable of doing this, which takes some work to find ships that are experts at killing cruisers and yet are fast enough to keep up with the DDs.

Thos is the best thing I can think to do to help the poor DDs on our teams, many people are far to quick to yell at DD players and blame them for everything, but few players are willing to lend a much needed helping hand.

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20 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Yes, but its more than just that.  It seems more and more of the average DD players are going back to lower tiers.  They will club the DD newbies and drive them to another ship type, or out of the game all together.  Its the CV clubbing problem all over again.

This. I loved DD's for the early tiers. Mid tiers it's seal clubbing, and I'm the seal. Or almost more frustrating, when there are minimum seal clubbers, but the rest of your team goes lemming after whatever squirrel just caught their attention and leave you with zero support. Either case makes learning to play a DD too frustrating to bother with. sticking with my cruiser and battlebarge now.

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2 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

 

Here is my last game from last night. Too Passive for you or no? 

dd.jpg

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