Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Stormie1126

A question for DD captains

65 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
246 posts
1,360 battles

So first let me start by saying this isn't a troll post, I'm honestly curious, and I don't play DDs so I only have the perspective of a BB/cruiser captain.

But since I started actually getting into the forums a week or two ago, I've seen a fair number of times-whether it's the point of the post or mentioned off hand-where DD skippers are complaining about a lack of balance when getting hit with AP, almost exclusively BB AP. The complaint seems to be too much damage from those shell hits.

My question is-why does this seem unbalanced to you? Again, I'm approaching this from the position of not being a DD captain myself, along with a little bit of....let's call it 'real life reasoning'? As well as being relatively new and not knowing all there is to know about the various metas yet (I know a bit, but still more to learn).

The way I look at it is, you're a small ship with thin armor, getting hit by big, hefty shells. Sure, if the game used ACTUAL real life logic 100% of the time, damage dealt across all types would be vastly different, since one citadel hit with a 16 inch round would only make one hole-relatively minor damage, even if it's a BIG hole. Then there'd be the consideration of 'did it actually take out any vital components?' Yet it takes a massive chunk of health off a ship regardless of what you're sailing, because it's a game, so in order to make things work game-wise, that's how they set it up. DDs are super agile, and stealthy, and can also smoke up-that's where the balance comes in, to me. Sure it's annoying if you're getting focus fired, dodging only works so well at that point, but why do you feel a citadel hit taking off gigantic chunks of your health is unbalanced? BBs balance it out by having better armor around the citadel, cruisers balance it by better armor than DDs but worse than BBs, but also still being fairly nimble.

So, captains, tell me-why the feelings of it being unbalanced?

Edited by Stormie1126
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
77
[BLUMR]
Members
217 posts
2,860 battles

Mostly people are complaining about double dipping. The BB shell doesn't arm, it doesn't overpen, it does BOTH. With one shell. 

Also game balance wise it takes a lot more torp hits to kill a BB (which are far less reliable than AP shots) than it takes for the BB to AP you to death. In World of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Ships this means BBs just have a better time dealing with everything than DDs have dealing with everything.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
246 posts
1,360 battles
1 minute ago, Sou1forge said:

Mostly people are complaining about double dipping. The BB shell doesn't arm, it doesn't overpen, it does BOTH. With one shell. 

Also game balance wise it takes a lot more torp hits to kill a BB (which are far less reliable than AP shots) than it takes for the BB to AP you to death. In World of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Ships this means BBs just have a better time dealing with everything than DDs have dealing with everything.

I know what overpen means, but 'arm' is new. What does this refer to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15
[SSBN]
[SSBN]
Members
26 posts
8,250 battles

I don't feel that anything's unbalanced in relation to playing DD's. I have noticed it's harder for me to get torp hits and kills in my DD's, but I assumed it's because the enemy captains are getting better at playing not that DD'in is worse. I could be wrong, I tend not to notice things, I still enjoy playing my DD's and I still play them like I always have...….. spot, spot, spot, try to be an asset for the team, with radar it's a little tougher to cap, but I'll still try, once radared it's dodge duck dip dive and dodge.

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
151
[STURM]
Members
302 posts
2,925 battles
17 minutes ago, Stormie1126 said:

I know what overpen means, but 'arm' is new. What does this refer to?

That means that it gets a normal penatration for 33% damage, as well as an overpen for an extra 10%, doing a total of 43% damage from a single shell. In addition, that 10% from the overpen is unaffected by damage saturation, so it always deals 10%.

That extra 10% may not sound like much, but with how damaging BB shells are and how small DD health pools are, that a significant chunk of life to lose to something that should not be happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
77
[BLUMR]
Members
217 posts
2,860 battles
17 minutes ago, Stormie1126 said:

I know what overpen means, but 'arm' is new. What does this refer to?

Arm means the regular pen damage, so 33% of the number it says under the "damage per shell" number. 

Arming refers to the explosives of the shell activating. An overpen in "real" terms means the shell passed through the ship and never exploded. A regular pen means the shell did what it was designed to to and exploded inside the ship after penetrating its armor. You can see how a shell shouldn't be able to do both at the same time, but it happens with BB shells on DD hulls. So you get 33% + 10% for overpen and pen with the same shell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
436
[CAST]
Members
1,428 posts
5,978 battles
25 minutes ago, Stormie1126 said:

I know what overpen means, but 'arm' is new. What does this refer to?

They meant that the fuse on the AP shell has time to arm, leading to full penetration damage (33% of the maximum AP damage from that gun).  Basically, this issue can cause a destroyer to take 43% of max AP damage from a battleship (for a penetration and an overpenetration) on a single shell hit.  At the higher tiers in particular, this can mean a larger percentage of that DD's health pool than would be taken from a cruiser suffering a citadel hit by the same BB (and keep in mind that very few destroyers have a heal consumable, while most high-tier cruisers do).

That said, some destroyer players don't like even taking the 33% "pen" damage from battleship AP--they believe that AP shells from a battleship should only overpenetrate against destroyers.  Why?  Without trying to belittle anyone's opinions, they fail to take into account things like exactly how long it takes a battleship to swap from AP to HE shells, which combined with the rendering delay which all ships suffer from, would basically make them immune to battleship guns.  There are numerous very lengthy threads buried on this forum containing varying levels of arguments both for and against this complaint.

There is a very vocal minority among every ship type in this game that advocate for changes which would only benefit their choice of ship, and not just among destroyer mains--battleship players who want torpedoes to be spotted from the moon along with immunity from prolonged HE fire, cruiser players who want thicker armor to protect their citadels while keeping the high speed and rate of fire inherent in cruisers, and carrier players who'd love to see defensive AA stripped from the game and who don't feel their dive bombers should ever miss.  You eventually learn to just move on to the next topic.

Edited by Harv72b
It's late
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,201 posts
8,185 battles

It has nothing to do with a realistic assessment of what a 16" shell does to a ship.  We all know that the game makes major adjustments in order to make all ship types roughly equivalent in power because a battleship would otherwise be far more powerful than a cruiser or a destroyer.  This is purely an issue of game balance and design.

There are three major factors:

First, battleships generally have little to fear from cruisers, especially in the mid tiers, so proper balance should dictate that they fear something else.  Tier 4 to 8 cruisers live in constant fear of being deleted by a battleship AP salvo.  Why should destroyers too?

Second, there is a risk of battleship AP being too universally useful.  If you can just Devastating Strike a destroyer with AP shells the same way you do everything else, it lowers the skill ceiling for battleship play.

Third, while destroyers are the most elusive ship type, they also have the most risky attack method.  Torpedoes have very low hit rates when fired from more than about 8 km away, and being spotted at inside 8 km makes evasion very difficult.  With low hitpoints and no armor to prevent overmatches, you're bound to take a beating if you get spotted on a torpedo run, even if they're all overpens.  Taking penetrating hits at that point just feels like piling on.

  • Cool 8
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
77
[BLUMR]
Members
217 posts
2,860 battles

For an example with numbers to show why its a problem consider the Yamato shooting a Gearing (with survivability expert as he should run), something that happens frequently enough in WoWS to be an issue.

Yammys guns are listed as doing 14,800 damage. 33% of 14,800 is 4,884. 10% is 1,480. So Pen + Overpen damage totals up to 6,364 damage.

Gearing only has 22,900 hit points. A single Yamato shell doing Penetration damage does around 21% of his health. A double dipping shell does 27% of his health. That's not a trivial difference. The Yamato now kills the Gearing in 4 shell hits instead of 5, assuming his shells double dip instead of regular pen each time.

 

Edited by Sou1forge
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
246 posts
1,360 battles

Ahh. I now see the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
215
[ZR]
WoWS Wiki Editor
566 posts
4,804 battles
1 hour ago, Sou1forge said:

For an example with numbers to show why its a problem consider the Yamato shooting a Gearing (with survivability expert as he should run), something that happens frequently enough in WoWS to be an issue.

Yammys guns are listed as doing 14,800 damage. 33% of 14,800 is 4,884. 10% is 1,480. So Pen + Overpen damage totals up to 6,364 damage.

Gearing only has 22,900 hit points. A single Yamato shell doing Penetration damage does around 21% of his health. A double dipping shell does 27% of his health. That's not a trivial difference. The Yamato now kills the Gearing in 4 shell hits instead of 5, assuming his shells double dip instead of regular pen each time.

 

And with how accurate Montana and Yamato are, landing 2 or more shells on a destroyers is not difficult at all. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
244
[TMS]
Members
1,742 posts
22,088 battles
7 hours ago, Baskerville77 said:

That means that it gets a normal penatration for 33% damage, as well as an overpen for an extra 10%, doing a total of 43% damage from a single shell. In addition, that 10% from the overpen is unaffected by damage saturation, so it always deals 10%.

That extra 10% may not sound like much, but with how damaging BB shells are and how small DD health pools are, that a significant chunk of life to lose to something that should not be happening.

The point is BB AP is meant to get overpen only on DDs, DDs should be only getting the 10% damage per shell not penetration damage but to make things worse a DD ends up getting both.

Edited by Final8ty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
567 posts
75 battles

This really only affects bad DD players who play too aggressively at capping like flies to a bug zapper because they aren't smart enough to realize it's better to let the enemy into the vulnerable cap, kill them, then cap after you are up in ship numbers. Also other DD players who get tunnel vision engaging a ship too closely or ignoring another enemy ship.

DD play is all about cat and mouse and crappy DD players get stuck in cat mode the entire 3 minutes they are alive leaving the rest of the team forced to play mouse. And many have the nerve to blame the rest of the team for being mice.

If you're getting fired at by BBs to the point that you're complaining about the damage, you're not using either the wasd or the patience hacks, or both.

I bet there are less than 20% of DD players with an avg survival duration of over 10 minutes and yet DDs become more powerful the longer they live, so you can see how insanely poor the majority of players are at playing DDs. So it's not the BB AP that's the problem, it's players and their impatience and lack of map awareness. Every time i see a DD charging B cap at the start of the match without any care or consideration of the three enemy radar ships and their unknown locations I think, "there's another window licker who still hasn't grasped the radar meta."

A shima for example should never been seen, especially in a non-CV match. Ever. Well, pretty much ever. So much so that surviving the entire match should happen at least 70% of the time.  Yet how many times do you see sub 40% win rate shima players charging caps because, "Playing the objective." They actually think they are cap contesting DDs. Same with khab and tashkent players who slso think they are cap contesting DDs.

You can't teach people who refuse to learn, so should WG placate these people? Many crap players say yes because they are paying customers who will leave in frustration. Thus the continued dumbing down of the game and the viscious spiral it causes by driving away quality and attracting/retaining the lowest common denominator.

  • Cool 2
  • Bad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
101
[EQRN]
Members
346 posts
8,987 battles

Seems blown out of proportion to me.  I see a DD, I take a shot and... nothing, zilch, nada, zip, zero.  And then I get to wait 30 seconds in which the DD can drop from view, or move further away where my chances of landing a hit drop even lower.  I have had those magical blap shots - they are like winning the lottery.  I suspect what usually happens is a DD gets spotted and shot at by many sources and in a very short amount of time sustains a lot of damage.  Changing the double dipping by BB AP isn’t going to drastically change life for DDs.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
122
[DANKY]
Members
504 posts
1,618 battles

I play Russian and American DDs at T9 and T6, respectively.  I'm fine with the mechanics right now.  Double dipping doesn't bother me much because if I'm getting nuked by BB shells it usually means I made a mistake and deserve it.  As a rooski I'm supposed to draw fire from a distance where a BB would be stupid to waste valuable shells trying to hit me, and as an American I'm supposed to manage my visibility better than that.  If a BB is close enough to reliably hit a dodging US DD and he can see him, the DD captain got overconfident. 

Overall if you put almost any similar-tier BB and DD together a skilled DD will always have the clear advantage.  In old naval terms he has the weather gauge - he has the speed and visibility to dictate the terms of engagement, and a BB can only stop and start, turn a lot and hope to capitalize on a mistake.  The only exceptions I can think of are shotguns like Alsace or Lyon vs. a Russian gunboat, and Missouri vs DDs from Japan. 

ETA: certain DD+BB duels are absolutely broken, on the DD's side.  For example any BB left one-on-one with a Kamikaze R is a reef waiting to happen.  And it's hard to describe how much I enjoy pinging KM BBs and their huge, flammable superstructures from a distance where secondaries don't work and dispersion is complete LOL. 

Edited by Eugenie_101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
372
[P2W]
[P2W]
Members
1,240 posts
6 hours ago, Stormie1126 said:

So first let me start by saying this isn't a troll post, I'm honestly curious, and I don't play DDs so I only have the perspective of a BB/cruiser captain.

But since I started actually getting into the forums a week or two ago, I've seen a fair number of times-whether it's the point of the post or mentioned off hand-where DD skippers are complaining about a lack of balance when getting hit with AP, almost exclusively BB AP. The complaint seems to be too much damage from those shell hits.

My question is-why does this seem unbalanced to you? Again, I'm approaching this from the position of not being a DD captain myself, along with a little bit of....let's call it 'real life reasoning'? As well as being relatively new and not knowing all there is to know about the various metas yet (I know a bit, but still more to learn).

The way I look at it is, you're a small ship with thin armor, getting hit by big, hefty shells. Sure, if the game used ACTUAL real life logic 100% of the time, damage dealt across all types would be vastly different, since one citadel hit with a 16 inch round would only make one hole-relatively minor damage, even if it's a BIG hole. Then there'd be the consideration of 'did it actually take out any vital components?' Yet it takes a massive chunk of health off a ship regardless of what you're sailing, because it's a game, so in order to make things work game-wise, that's how they set it up. DDs are super agile, and stealthy, and can also smoke up-that's where the balance comes in, to me. Sure it's annoying if you're getting focus fired, dodging only works so well at that point, but why do you feel a citadel hit taking off gigantic chunks of your health is unbalanced? BBs balance it out by having better armor around the citadel, cruisers balance it by better armor than DDs but worse than BBs, but also still being fairly nimble.

So, captains, tell me-why the feelings of it being unbalanced?

Reality has no bearing on game balance whatsoever. You can find a million threads about people complaining about unfaithful to real life implementations; and they're wrong. You see this from mains of all classes. Want the counter argument? In real life your BB shells had a single digit % hit rate and 5+ minute reload times (I'm not a history buff, but it's something like that and you can find the real arguments from the Sim crowd buried in the forums). Real life isn't fun.

6 hours ago, Sou1forge said:

Mostly people are complaining about double dipping. The BB shell doesn't arm, it doesn't overpen, it does BOTH. With one shell. 

Also game balance wise it takes a lot more torp hits to kill a BB (which are far less reliable than AP shots) than it takes for the BB to AP you to death. In World of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Ships this means BBs just have a better time dealing with everything than DDs have dealing with everything.

This.

Also, you should, as a BB captain, be required to switch to HE to fight DDs. See, we are supposed to be your counter, but we've been nerfed hard in a variety of ways (some lines worse than others, namely torpedo boats) the main one recently being our ONLY defense, concealment, being removed at least 50% of the time and smoke is pretty much entirely useless in every game T8+ now (except as bait to get red torpedo cooldowns wasted).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,384
[NMKJT]
Beta Testers
21,466 posts
3,875 battles

Some might defend Double Dipping as "But it pens one section into another section!"

 

However, the definition of an over-penetration as used by WG is "when a shell exits the ship and explodes outside".

 

Therefore, when a shell double dips, it is exiting the ship and exploding. But also entering the ship and exploding inside. A double-dipping shell is exploding twice.

  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
857
[SBS]
Members
2,488 posts
2,253 battles
59 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Some might defend Double Dipping as "But it pens one section into another section!"

 

However, the definition of an over-penetration as used by WG is "when a shell exits the ship and explodes outside".

 

Therefore, when a shell double dips, it is exiting the ship and exploding. But also entering the ship and exploding inside. A double-dipping shell is exploding twice.

The Wki uses similar wording "Over-penetration is when a shell penetrates the ship through-and-through, before it has a chance to detonate inside the ship."   Neither are an accurate definition of an overpen, as it works in the game.  I don't blame people for feeling how something actually works in game is the intended design, regardless of the definition WG uses.  We don't know if double dipping is the correct/intended design or not.  I don't remember WG ever addressing this issue specifically (maybe they did and I missed it).  

Personally, I think 33% pen damage, or citadel hits should already include any possible overpen damage that might occur.  In other words, no double dipping.

7 hours ago, Harv72b said:

That said, some destroyer players don't like even taking the 33% "pen" damage from battleship AP--they believe that AP shells from a battleship should only overpenetrate against destroyers.

It's not just some DD players, it's WG also.   

Edited by Slimeball91

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
567 posts
75 battles
1 hour ago, Eugenie_101 said:

I play Russian and American DDs at T9 and T6, respectively.  I'm fine with the mechanics right now.  Double dipping doesn't bother me much because if I'm getting nuked by BB shells it usually means I made a mistake and deserve it.  As a rooski I'm supposed to draw fire from a distance where a BB would be stupid to waste valuable shells trying to hit me, and as an American I'm supposed to manage my visibility better than that.  If a BB is close enough to reliably hit a dodging US DD and he can see him, the DD captain got overconfident. 

Exactly this, but cowardly anonymous down voters with downs are unable to take personsl accountability nor counter the argument with organized and cohesive thoughts and valid and relevant supporting statements.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
71 posts
49 battles
7 hours ago, Stormie1126 said:

So first let me start by saying this isn't a troll post, I'm honestly curious, and I don't play DDs so I only have the perspective of a BB/cruiser captain.

But since I started actually getting into the forums a week or two ago, I've seen a fair number of times-whether it's the point of the post or mentioned off hand-where DD skippers are complaining about a lack of balance when getting hit with AP, almost exclusively BB AP. The complaint seems to be too much damage from those shell hits.

My question is-why does this seem unbalanced to you? Again, I'm approaching this from the position of not being a DD captain myself, along with a little bit of....let's call it 'real life reasoning'? As well as being relatively new and not knowing all there is to know about the various metas yet (I know a bit, but still more to learn).

The way I look at it is, you're a small ship with thin armor, getting hit by big, hefty shells. Sure, if the game used ACTUAL real life logic 100% of the time, damage dealt across all types would be vastly different, since one citadel hit with a 16 inch round would only make one hole-relatively minor damage, even if it's a BIG hole. Then there'd be the consideration of 'did it actually take out any vital components?' Yet it takes a massive chunk of health off a ship regardless of what you're sailing, because it's a game, so in order to make things work game-wise, that's how they set it up. DDs are super agile, and stealthy, and can also smoke up-that's where the balance comes in, to me. Sure it's annoying if you're getting focus fired, dodging only works so well at that point, but why do you feel a citadel hit taking off gigantic chunks of your health is unbalanced? BBs balance it out by having better armor around the citadel, cruisers balance it by better armor than DDs but worse than BBs, but also still being fairly nimble.

So, captains, tell me-why the feelings of it being unbalanced?

Its pretty easy. This isnt supposed to be reality based game but more of a arcade warship game and in this game the AP shells arent supposed to do this much damage to a DD. Lazy BB players are supposed to actually switch to HE to be effective against a DD.

But for some reason (or maybe just because it effect the DD captains and not those precious BB players) WG has delayed fixing this for 2 years.....

BBs thought that smoke was a bit "unbalanced", voila!!WG fix it in next patch. BB thought Zao stealthfirering was unbalanced, voila!!!

And voila!!!

And voila!!!

.....

Edited by Seamore_Bhutz
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[AK-47]
Members
155 posts
3,106 battles
7 hours ago, StudebacherHoch said:

I don't feel that anything's unbalanced in relation to playing DD's. I have noticed it's harder for me to get torp hits and kills in my DD's, but I assumed it's because the enemy captains are getting better at playing not that DD'in is worse. I could be wrong, I tend not to notice things, I still enjoy playing my DD's and I still play them like I always have...….. spot, spot, spot, try to be an asset for the team, with radar it's a little tougher to cap, but I'll still try, once radared it's dodge duck dip dive and dodge.

5 rules of dodgeball!!!! [edited] I love it!!!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,606
[PSP]
Members
6,348 posts
8,971 battles

I have nothing against a BB taking out a DD with an AP salvo if it can. I can take out a BB with a torpedo salvo, burn it to the waterline with HE, or tear it apart at close range with AP -- why should a BB have to pick one shell type to fire back at me successfully.

In real life, a 16-inch shell could easily cripple or sink a destroyer due merely to kinetic energy alone. Remember that the Navy is right now researching getting away from explosives and going purely kinetic energy with its rail guns. It doesn't matter how small it is, if its going fast enough it will damage you considerably. 

A 16-inch shell has a muzzle energy of  303,621,552 foot pounds. To place this into perspective, a .50 caliber machinegun round has a muzzle energy of 13,241 ft⋅lb. In other words, 23,000 times as much energy from a 16-inch gun hit.

Sure, an unexploded 16-inch round could punch through a DD above the waterline and do little damage. However, it also could take out a boiler, engine, propeller shaft, steering gear, etc. or punch a 16-inch hole right through the bottom of the ship.

Edited by Snargfargle
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
248
[TDRB]
Members
1,137 posts
4,280 battles
Quote

Its pretty easy. This isnt supposed to be reality based game but more of a arcade warship game and in this game the AP shells arent supposed to do this much damage to a DD.

The game does choose to be somewhat realistic to shed that arcade look & feel. But balancing is a far greater priority than realism.

Quote

Lazy BB players are supposed to actually switch to HE to be effective against a DD.

Lazy???? The Scharnhorst, with its 20 second reload time, can't switch fast enough to catch a DD that has popped into sight before it can disappear in many cases. A BB driver must make a split second decision to shot or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,384
[NMKJT]
Beta Testers
21,466 posts
3,875 battles
27 minutes ago, kgh52 said:

Lazy???? The Scharnhorst, with its 20 second reload time, can't switch fast enough to catch a DD that has popped into sight before it can disappear in many cases. A BB driver must make a split second decision to shot or not.

And you should be rewarded with lots of damage when using what everyone including the game developers have been telling you is the wrong ammunition? The very idea of the game being changed so that you are no longer rewarded for doing the wrong thing is bad for the game?

 

The entitlement of battleship mains is ludicrous. They've been babied so much and had it easy for so long that they balk at the very thought of any difficulty.

 

It's Scharnhorst. You have the deadliest secondary battery in tier 7. If you're too lazy to change to HE in the main battery, try using that. Or is "Ctrl+Click, automatically melt anything within 7.5km" too hard, too?

Edited by KiyoSenkan
  • Cool 1
  • Bad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
122
[DANKY]
Members
504 posts
1,618 battles
1 hour ago, kgh52 said:

Lazy???? The Scharnhorst, with its 20 second reload time, can't switch fast enough to catch a DD that has popped into sight before it can disappear in many cases. A BB driver must make a split second decision to shot or not.

That's an easy one: shoot.  Always take a clean shot at a DD.  It will take about the same amount of time to shoot and switch as it takes to just switch.  If you want to make the most of a baseball bat like KM BBs then get that faster ammo switch captain skill. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×