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legoboy0401

On Why I Hate Playing Mid-Tier DDs(not a MM or Radar thread)

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We've all been there. You are in your Podovisky or Gnevny or Anshan, (or Minsk/Leningrad), ships designed for open-water tanking and shooting. So you have a nice BB target picked out(with only 1 or two enemy BBs who's attention is elsewhere in support of your target), and you start firing.

 

All of the sudden, your Priority Target indicator on your detected indicator reads 8, and in come what must be, oh what, 70+ shells of both ammo types and of every imaginable caliber from DD 4-5 inch to BB 12-16 inch and everywhere in between that seem to have a homing capability,(and come from all over the map, sometimes even a BB on the other side of the map with a spotter joins in) and at least one shell of each caliber hits no matter how much you dodge, and one of them is(of course, totally balanced, comrade:Smile_sceptic:) a BB AP shell that adds up your armor instead of checking each layer for the right thickness to arm the fuse, and pens, doing HUGE amounts of damage, and then when you finally decide "screw this, I'm smoking up and going dark, in come the cruiser HE shells which hit at least 3, maybe even 4 before you are under the protection of your smoke(and break 75% of the modules on the ship and set you on fire, with 80% of your health gone) If you haven't already used your DC, you survive, but only just. Now you can't afford to be spotted once or it's "GAME OVER, NOOB! BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME, LLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!":Smile_facepalm:

 

You have no way of dealing with DDs, which all can spot and kill you, even Mutsuki can at this low health, you have no way of dealing with those vile, wretched, scum-of-the-earth, idiotic cruisers who are any case currently cackling with glee and menace, enemy BBs may not be able to spot you, but if you DO get spotted, 1 or two secondary hits from the BBs with the worst secondaries in the game will kill you, with damage to spare. And enemy CVs? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They must be wearing the smile of a mad sorcerer and laughing like a witch. All they need to do is spot you once, and that's not hard at all, especially with last known position. 

 

This NEEDS TO STOP. I don't know how to currently put an end to this travesty without breaking the game or making Cruiser and BB players angry at WG for taking away their mostly free xp and credits, but I DO know what caused it. OWSF removal was idiotic as it related to DDs and it was a major slap in the face to DDs everywhere. Cruisers, of course, were the ones REALLY abusing this mechanic, NOT DDs.

 

Remember Belfast? Compare Belfast with OWSF to Blys with OWSF: which one was the bigger threat? Remember how RU Cruisers were really good at this?(not Moskva, but pretty much the entire RU CL section) Compare that with KMS DDs, which were introduced(the first ship line to have this) without OWSF: This EXACT problem(EXCESSIVE GUN BLOOM MEANING EVERYONE COULD FIRE ON THEM AS SOON AS THEY FIRED THEIR GUNS) is what turned so many away from KMS DDs until OWSF was universally removed. But come to think of it, WG DID THE SUM TOTAL OF NOTHING ABOUT IT. THEY ONLY SADDLED EVERY OTHER DD IN THE GAME WITH THE EXACT PROBLEM, a problem we are still dealing with the terrible consequences of to this very day.

 

I'll say it again: Something HAS to be done. Any DDs with average or low HP/ average to low speed/agility are pretty much finished from the word "go" just as soon as they fire their guns for the first time in the match. This is at top-tier, mind you. If they are bottom tier? Only a miracle of teamwork and cowardly/extremely passive play will keep them alive through the entire match, let alone at the top of the team unless the rest are 30%- WR players.

 

You wonder why most hybrids play right up next to the side of an island/islands when firing their guns, and otherwise mostly play as torpedo boats? Now you know. This is the REAL problem, not Radar. Even at higher tiers, the one thing I've seen EVERY match I've watched on Youtube starring high-tier DDs, NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE PLAYER WAS, is this ridiculous phenomenon. Inevitably, this happens to at least one DD in the match, and even the good players take falls from it. Radar is bad, don't get me wrong. There's far too much of it, but I'm afraid we've been focusing too much on the symptom, and not enough on the disease. We've COMPLETELY FAILED to SEE THE FOREST FOR THE TREES. 

 

We've asked over and over: How is radar too good? What benefits does it give that are too big? Is it too versatile? But we've never bothered asking the obvious question: "Why? What is that so enables Radar to be totally game-breaking for most DDs? Why can't most DDs function while spotted?" Voila, here is the answer: because knife-fighting is no longer meta, nor can it be. For a DD to fire their guns outside of smoke, it's basically a free 20 second reverse-Radar that goes out from the DD and unveils the DD to anyone within their gun range.

 

Not to be paranoid or political here, but this all smacks of BB and Cruiser bias. It's like the modern victim hierarchy with the most "fringe" people groups and identities at the top, and the most "normal" people at the bottom being blamed for everything. In the same way, BBs are the ultimate protected group in WoWS, and then Cruisers are the second-most protected class(BB snack food). DDs and CVs are tied for the bottom of the list, with at least one of them on any given day, (and sometimes both) being blamed for everything wrong, everything unbalanced in the game.

 

What about you guys? Have you guys seen this kind of thing in your matches? If so, how often?

Edited by legoboy0401
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2 minutes ago, legoboy0401 said:

We've all been there. You are in your Podovisky or Gnevny or Anshan, (or Minsk/Leningrad), ships designed for open-water tanking and shooting. So you have a nice BB target picked out(with only 1 or two enemy BBs who's attention is elsewhere in support of your target), and you start firing.

 

All of the sudden, your Priority Target indicator on your detected indicator reads 8, and in come what must be, oh what, 70+ shells of both ammo types and of every imaginable caliber from DD 4-5 inch to BB 12-16 inch and everywhere in between that seem to have a homing capability,(and come from all over the map, sometimes even a BB on the other side of the map with a spotter joins in) and at least one shell of each caliber hits no matter how much you dodge, and one of them is(of course, totally balanced, comrade:Smile_sceptic:) a BB AP shell that adds up your armor instead of checking each layer for the right thickness to arm the fuse, and pens, doing HUGE amounts of damage, and then when you finally decide "screw this, I'm smoking up and going dark, in come the cruiser HE shells which hit at least 3, maybe even 4 before you are under the protection of your smoke(and break 75% of the modules on the ship and set you on fire, with 80% of your health gone) If you haven't already used your DC, you survive, but only just. Now you can't afford to be spotted once or it's "GAME OVER, NOOB! BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME, LLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!":Smile_facepalm:

 

You have no way of dealing with DDs, which all can spot and kill you, even Mutsuki can at this low health, you have no way of dealing with those vile, wretched, scum-of-the-earth, idiotic cruisers who are any case currently cackling with glee and menace, enemy BBs may not be able to spot you, but if you DO get spotted, 1 or two secondary hits from the BBs with the worst secondaries in the game will kill you, with damage to spare. And enemy CVs? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They must be wearing the smile of a mad sorcerer and laughing like a witch. All they need to do is spot you once, and that's not hard at all, especially with last known position. 

 

This NEEDS TO STOP. I don't know how to currently put an end to this travesty without breaking the game or making Cruiser and BB players angry at WG for taking away their mostly free xp and credits, but I DO know what caused it. OWSF removal was idiotic as it related to DDs and it was a major slap in the face to DDs everywhere. Cruisers, of course, were the ones REALLY abusing this mechanic, NOT DDs.

 

Remember Belfast? Compare Belfast with OWSF to Blys with OWSF: which one was the bigger threat? Remember how RU Cruisers were really good at this?(not Moskva, but pretty much the entire RU CL section) Compare that with KMS DDs, which were introduced(the first ship line to have this) without OWSF: This EXACT problem(EXCESSIVE GUN BLOOM MEANING EVERYONE COULD FIRE ON THEM AS SOON AS THEY FIRED THEIR GUNS) is what turned so many away from KMS DDs until OWSF was universally removed. But come to think of it, WG DID THE SUM TOTAL OF NOTHING ABOUT IT. THEY ONLY SADDLED EVERY OTHER DD IN THE GAME WITH THE EXACT PROBLEM, a problem we are still dealing with the terrible consequences of to this very day.

 

I'll say it again: Something HAS to be done. Any DDs with average or low HP/ average to low speed/agility are pretty much finished from the word "go" just as soon as they fire their guns for the first time in the match. This is at top-tier, mind you. If they are bottom tier? Only a miracle of teamwork and cowardly/extremely passive play will keep them alive through the entire match, let alone at the top of the team unless the rest are 30%- WR players.

 

You wonder why most hybrids play right up next to the side of an island/islands when firing their guns, and otherwise mostly play as torpedo boats? Now you know. This is the REAL problem, not Radar. Even at higher tiers, the one thing I've seen EVERY match I've watched on Youtube starring high-tier DDs, NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE PLAYER WAS, is this ridiculous phenomenon. Radar is bad, don't get me wrong. There's far too much of it, but I'm afraid we've been focusing too much on the symptom, and not enough on the disease. We've COMPLETELY FAILED to SEE THE FOREST FOR THE TREES. 

 

We've asked over and over: How is radar too good? What benefits does it give that are too big? Is it too versatile? But we've never bothered asking the obvious question: "Why? What is that so enables Radar to be totally game-breaking for most DDs? Why can't most DDs function while spotted?" Voila, here is the answer: because knife-fighting is no longer meta, nor can it be. For a DD to fire their guns outside of smoke, it's basically a free 20 second reverse-Radar that goes out from the DD and unveils the DD to anyone within their gun range.

 

Not to be paranoid or political here, but this all smacks of BB and Cruiser bias. It's like the modern victim hierarchy with the most "fringe" people groups and identities at the top, and the most "normal" people at the bottom being blamed for everything. In the same way, BBs are the ultimate protected group in WoWS, and then Cruisers are the second-most protected class(BB snack food). DDs and CVs are tied for the bottom of the list, with at least one of them on any given day, (and sometimes both) being blamed for everything wrong, everything unbalanced in the game.

 

What about you guys? Have you guys seen this kind of thing in your matches? If so, how often?

Good training for the next Corgi event or whatever it is called. :Smile_hiding:

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Lol I did that to A Fiji in my Mo Fiji was tryin to torp me and yea I said bye bye have a nice day.  Not really lol cause I have the chat box disabled but you get the idea.

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yea, i mostly feel like guns on DDs are useless too ( at least until late game; depends) Even on gunships with reasonable torps, you have to rely on torps for any meaningful reward in game.

Just wish WG would lower a gun bloom time based on the caliber of the gun that fired that's the best way. Too bad its never going to happen in the foreseeable future. 

Edited by JB_24
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1 minute ago, JB_24 said:

yea, i mostly feel like guns on DDs are useless too ( at least until late game; depends) Even on gunships with reasonable torps, you have to rely on torps for any meaningful reward in game.

Just wish WG would lower a gun bloom time based on the caliber of the gun that fired that's the best way. Too bad its never going to happen in the foreseeable future. 

Currently, DDs firing their guns are basically radar'ing themselves, and can be compared to shining an industrial spotlight on them: EVERYBODY CAN SEE THEM, AND EVERYBODY WHO CAN AIM AT THEM WILL FIRE AT THEM, REGARDLESS OF time to target, just so long as they can reach the DD.

 

You are suggesting blinking it on and off in quicker intervals. What isn't going to happen(but should) is for the proverbial spotlight to be turned off entirely, permanently. Give DDs the last few meters of their range back as OWSF. It wouldn't be easy to use, but it would allow you to get in free damage when your DD is on VERY, VERY, VERY low health.

 

Yet WG says OWSF for ANY class in the game IS HORRIBLY UNBALANCED. WG, bias against DDs much? :Smile_facepalm:

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I really Don't see your problem.

You have the smallest Detection range of all other Ships.

You made a Mistake and fired your guns.

There is no mercy for any mistakes.

BB's that sail in one direction are punished.

CA/L who show a Broadside are Punished.

CV,s that fly over CA/Ls are punished.

SUbs are Never visible and never fire, They are Punished.

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eh, i thought the mid tier Ru DDs(before their incoming buffs) were ok.  Nothing spectacular.  They generally can't carry a team like a stealth DD.   Anyways, if you are being shot by 8 people, then you put your self in a bad spot.  Doesn't matter what ship you are in.  If you are picking fights before you know where the enemy is, you are taking a large risk in getting taken out early.  Doesn't matter what tier that is. 

 

Anyways, RU dds are good for backing up the stealthier DDs for cap contesting and staying at farther ranges(12km or so) while speed boosting to dodge shells while farming BBs.  Smoke firing isn't bad if you have someone to spot for you while being safe from torps or radar. 

 

gun bloom mechanics are meh currently.  DDs are punished too much and BBs get the most out of it.  BBs don't have to give up anything like DPM between reloads while cruisers do and 20 second duration makes knife fighting as DDs very unappealing.

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40 minutes ago, legoboy0401 said:

OWSF removal was idiotic as it related to DDs and it was a major slap in the face to DDs everywhere.

You have GOT to be kidding! I'm calling this: B A I T !!

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Is the SF in OWSF stealth firing? I don't know what OWSF stands for.

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Just now, legozer said:

Is the SF in OWSF stealth firing? I don't know what OWSF stands for.

Yes. 

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What's the OW part?

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Just now, legozer said:

What's the OW part?

Open-Water. The full name of the removed mechanic was Open-Water-Stealth-Firing, or OWSF for short.

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27 minutes ago, _Lord_Scott_ said:

I really Don't see your problem.

You have the smallest Detection range of all other Ships.

[You made a Mistake and fired your guns.]

There is no mercy for any mistakes.

BB's that sail in one direction are punished.

CA/L who show a Broadside are Punished.

CV,s that fly over CA/Ls are punished.

SUbs are Never visible and never fire, They are Punished.

Bold: that is a mistake. In italics, that is a mistake. Underlined, that is a mistake. In brackets, that is a WG-designed staple of how some DDs and DD lines are supposed to play. That's no mistake.

 

I recognize your poor attempt at trying to bait me into saying that I'm playing it wrong, that I am a scrub who needs to "git gud". when it comes to this playstyle. I'm most certainly not. In fact, while there are most definitely areas that I need improvement in(I'm a bad BB player about half of the time, and I've never been known to be the Legend27 of Cruisers, either), gunboat DDs are NOT one of them. I've played a lot of both torpedo boats and gunboats back in the day, and gunboats were rarely a huge issue(apart from the low caliber gun of some DD gunboats at Tier IV, for instance).

 

I want desperately to like DD gunboats, but something always happens these days that never seemed to happen to these ships in older videos on them: I get deleted no matter how much I speed up, slow down, turn in any direction, pop speed boost... It's because, the second ANY DD fires their guns and gets spotted, EVERYBODY ON THE OPPOSING TEAM DROPS WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO FIRE(AT LEAST) A SALVO OR TWO AT THE DD!

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they need to buff T7 destroyer concealment, 6.8 is the worst concealment in the whole game. At least makes them close to T8.

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10 minutes ago, NoobDD said:

they need to buff T7 destroyer concealment, 6.8 is the worst concealment in the whole game. At least makes them close to T8.

Yeah, most WoWS CCs, Youtubers, and Live-Streamers hate the artificial power grade created by the Tier VIII concealment module.

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1 hour ago, legoboy0401 said:

So you have a nice BB target picked out(with only 1 or two enemy BBs who's attention is elsewhere in support of your target)

1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

All of the sudden, your Priority Target indicator on your detected indicator reads 8

Me thinks you have the wrong definition of the word only.

Sounds like you forgot to mention that there were at least 5 other ships that were not spotted yet that were willing to lose there detection advantage because a red DD was silly enough to fire w/the potential of having up to 8 ships at once able to fire back at them...what did you expect.

You made it sound like all ships had been detected & the only possible ships that could have supported the target BB were 2 other BBs w/guns aimed the wrong direction...kinda trollish don't ya think?

 

1 hour ago, legoboy0401 said:

low speed

LOL...RU DDs...LMOA...low speed...ROFLMMFAO.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Me thinks you have the wrong definition of the word only.

Sounds like you forgot to mention that there were at least 5 other ships that were not spotted yet that were willing to lose there detection advantage because a red DD was silly enough to fire w/the potential of having up to 8 ships at once able to fire back at them...what did you expect.

You made it sound like all ships had been detected & the only possible ships that could have supported the target BB were 2 other BBs w/guns aimed the wrong direction...kinda trollish don't ya think?

 

LOL...RU DDs...LMOA...low speed...ROFLMMFAO.

 

 

Dude. Three things:

 

Potentially, you can have up to 12 on that indicator. I said that the reason the indicator(this is all theoretical, but it's based on events that happen all the time) showed 8 instead of 3 is everyone who the DD is in gun range of dropped whatever they were doing to fire at the DD. It's not that there were more than 3 ships in the area, it's that everybody who could(including those spotted much further away) WOULD(AND WILL) fire at DDs regardless of how improbable a hit on a DD from extreme range actually is. I've seen cruisers and BBs using their spotter planes just to get the chance to fire at the enemy DD before.

 

(in bold) Not at all. I have had that exact situation that you described happen numerous occasions, where EVERYBODY BUT MAYBE ONE ENEMY DD(But we've spotted him too, earlier on the other side of the map) is spotted and pre-occupied/out-of-position/I'm out of their gun range, and yet, when I start firing, everybody who just a second ago had literally no chance of interfering is interfering majorly.

 

Third, I didn't have the RU DDs in mind when  I was talking about low speed/low agility. I was thinking RN DDs(low speed) and Akizuki and the new follow-ons(super low agility AND super low speed)

Edited by legoboy0401

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40 minutes ago, NoobDD said:

they need to buff T7 destroyer concealment, 6.8 is the worst concealment in the whole game. At least makes them close to T8.

Honestly the concealment module is just too powerful. The jump down in detection of DDs from T7 to T8 is ridiculous. T7 destroyers can be outspotted by destroyers at tiers both higher and lower than them.

And WG decided to add the dispersion debuff to it, making it almost a no-brainer for most ships to take.

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19 minutes ago, legoboy0401 said:

Dude. Three things:

 

Potentially, you can have up to 12 on that indicator. I said that the reason the indicator(this is all theoretical, but it's based on events that happen all the time) showed 8 instead of 3 is everyone who the DD is in gun range of dropped whatever they were doing to fire at the DD. It's not that there were more than 3 ships in the area, it's that everybody who could(including those spotted much further away) WOULD(AND WILL) fire at DDs regardless of how improbable a hit on a DD from extreme range actually is. I've seen cruisers and BBs using their spotter planes just to get the chance to fire at the enemy DD before.

 

(in bold) Not at all. I have had that exact situation that you described happen numerous occasions, where EVERYBODY BUT MAYBE ONE ENEMY DD(But we've spotted him too, earlier on the other side of the map) is spotted and pre-occupied/out-of-position/I'm out of their gun range, and yet, when I start firing, everybody who just a second ago had literally no chance of interfering is interfering majorly.

 

Third, I didn't have the RU DDs in mind when  I was talking about low speed/low agility. I was thinking RN DDs(low speed) and Akizuki and the new follow-ons(super low agility AND super low speed)

1st 2 things are basically the same thing...everybody fired at the DD...that's how games are won...next time try the same thing yourself instead of concentrating on the juicy slow moving easy to hit BBs that just heal up that damage & laugh.

I'm not sure what nation the Anshan is but the only other DDs you mentioned (all 4 of them) are all RU...except the Mutsuki that you only  mentioned in  reference of being able to finish off your RU DD after the 70+ shells knocked you down to non discernable life.

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This is why i laugh at people that complain about radar though too. Spotting is extremely powerful in this game and DD's well played can be huge match difference. They have too much influence over matches next to CV's. No one worries about the unspotted CA or BB because they can be handled. There's a large reduction in torp soup lately and i'm happy for that.

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6 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

1st 2 things are basically the same thing...everybody fired at the DD...that's how games are won...next time try the same thing yourself instead of concentrating on the juicy slow moving easy to hit BBs that just heal up that damage & laugh.

I'm not sure what nation the Anshan is but the only other DDs you mentioned (all 4 of them) are all RU...except the Mutsuki that you only  mentioned in  reference of being able to finish off your RU DD after the 70+ shells knocked you down to non discernable life.

Anhan's Pan-Asian. She is almost identical to the Fushun except for in a few soft stats and not having Deep-water torps. She and Fushun, however, are Gnevnys in real life and share most of her gun stats and all of her speed stats, though Fushun has better agility than Anshan and Gnevny.

 

For all intents and purposes she is Russian.

 

Also, I was mentioning what specific types of DDs are worst off firing their guns, even though they may be designed in the game to play like that.

Edited by legoboy0401

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7 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

This is why i laugh at people that complain about radar though too. Spotting is extremely powerful in this game and DD's well played can be huge match difference. They have too much influence over matches next to CV's. No one worries about the unspotted CA or BB because they can be handled. There's a large reduction in torp soup lately and i'm happy for that.

You just made my day, and do you know why?

 

..." It's like the modern victim hierarchy with the most "fringe" people groups and identities at the top, and the most "normal" people at the bottom being blamed for everything. In the same way, BBs are the ultimate protected group in WoWS, and then Cruisers are the second-most protected class(BB snack food). DDs and CVs are tied for the bottom of the list, with at least one of them on any given day, (and sometimes bothbeing blamed for everything wrong, everything unbalanced in the game."

 

Well well well, I got that right. You are blaming DDs(and CVs, too) for something wrong in the game.

 

You people sometimes...:Smile_sceptic:

Edited by legoboy0401
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It's actually good that teams focus down the enemy DD. It's just unfortunate when it also happens to be you who's that DD.

But DDs are all about high-risk, high-rewards. Drop the concealment module and go double rudder shift if you want to gunboat hard rather than play surprise harasser. There's a certain thrill constantly changing directions and throwing off the aim.

Other times, it's fine to just stalk enemy ships the whole match, and spam torpedoes on occasion, watching them get paranoid and making mistakes in front of your teammates.

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8 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said:

It's actually good that teams focus down the enemy DD. It's just unfortunate when it also happens to be you who's that DD.

But DDs are all about high-risk, high-rewards. Drop the concealment module and go double rudder shift if you want to gunboat hard rather than play surprise harasser. There's a certain thrill constantly changing directions and throwing off the aim.

Other times, it's fine to just stalk enemy ships the whole match, and spam torpedoes on occasion, watching them get paranoid and making mistakes in front of your teammates.

You know, like, man, there's like, you know, a reason and all, that this is called "On Why I hate Playing MID-TIER DDs."

 

Mid-tier DDs don't get the concealment module or double rudder shift. I run what is essentially a double rudder shift(or it would be if it was an Anshan) on my Fushun, Fushun's better rudder shift plus Rudder Shift mod. 1, and I've STILL fallen prey to what I described in the topic post.

 

To be honest, though, the latter playstyle that you mentioned is fun, don't get me wrong. It's not especially satisfying, but it's not like it isn't fun. The problem is the reward for such teamplay is nothing.

Edited by legoboy0401

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Just now, legoboy0401 said:

You know, like, man, there's like, you know, a reason and all, that this is called "On Why I hate Playing MID-TIER DDs."

 

Mid-tier DDs don't get the concealment module or double rudder shift. I run what is essentially a double rudder shift(or it would be if it was an Anshan) on my Fushun, Fushun's better rudder shift plus Rudder Shift mod. 1.

 

To be honest, though, the latter is fun, don't get me wrong. It's not especially satisfying, but it's not like it isn't fun. The problem is the reward for such teamplay is nothing.

I play DDs a bit more selfishly (and too aggressively; my crappy stats show that), so I can understand the mid-tier frustration. Given the way WG has settled on the current MM where T7s are usually top tier however, they're not as likely to give a few tweaks to T6-T7 DDs. Or for that matter, most T7s period.

 

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