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JediMasterDraco

Is Stealth a Double-Edged Sword?

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One of the greatest assets of destroyers since the game's inception has been their low detectability. And with the removal of OWSF, the best use of stealth has been to get as close as possible and dump a butt-load of torps straight into the most appropriate target and then running like hell. However, the current meta of the game has a lot of radar ships floating around and sheltering behind islands. Meaning ships that try to exploit their stealth to the fullest just put themselves at greater risk of get radar'd and blasted. We can hope that the introduction of Brit DDs will help normalize things, but considering from what I've seen they are DDs with no particular strength and lack Speed Boost... makes me wonder how many people will actually play them. I can honestly say at this point that the only one I'm interested in is Cossack. Oh well, it's not like they're coming out next patch so we have time. Please note that this is not a call to remove radar, it's more meant to spark discussion over how vital detection is nowadays and how useful it is in balancing.

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Concealment as a whole is one of the most important values in the game.  Regardless of the ship type.  It determines the ease of how you move around without getting perma-spotted so much and taking needless damage.  It determines how easily you can maneuver to punish people when you finally attack.  It determines how easily you can disengage if things get too hot.

 

Last night I watched a Shimakaze player with no camo.  Guess how good he was around the caps?  WORTHLESS.

 

One can say that if a Cruiser is constantly spamming shells, that concealment isn't as big a factor for them.  Yet there is markedly different, better sense of security when you can easily disengage due to better concealment values.  The confidence in being able to save your ship in a stealthy Zao in open water, compared to Hindenburg, Moskva, Henri IV that are easily perma-spotted.

 

Of all the ships in the game, no one benefits more from a Stealth Build than Battleships.  The way the game improves concealment via camo, CSM1 upgrade, and CE trait is by %.  Simply put, the worse the ship's concealment range, the larger the gains.  It is why you can have ships with 18km+ detection ranges like Yamato, GK, Republique being able to come down to 13.5km with a Stealth Build.  I don't know about you guys, but the idea of a Yamato sneaking to 14km and unloading into my Cruiser that is spamming shells at someone else is scary a.f.

 

Even "but they hide in the back all the time" Carriers need stealth to operate more efficiently.  Midway can literally be spotted from halfway across the map.  Lexington is so easy to find that it's a major problem to get closer without getting easily spotted and shot apart.  If your CV has bad concealment, you get spotted easily and everyone shoots you up.  On the flip side, you got IJN CVs with Cruiser levels of detection ranges that can more aggressively sail forward.  If a CV is forward deployed, it cuts down on the hangar recharge times.  Not every map has a convenient, safe, secure spot for a low concealment CV to easily support his team without getting spotted early.

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Detection is very vital. I am running my DD lines right now mist are at tier 5 so I dont see alot of radar. But American DD's atent going to syealth torp any one. Torping from smoke dont count because everyone knows torps are coming from smoke or going into smoke.  So with my american i get out in the open and keep enemies spotted for my cruisers and BB's to shoot. Of course I'll cap when I can. 

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Well, if you look at the spotting mechanics, there's a couple of things you have to be aware:

1. Your detection range

2. His detection range

3. LOS

It used to be that "detected" CO skill was something you have to spend points on. Now it's free to everyone. Priority Target tells you the number of ships that have targeted you. Take the case of a Shimakaze vs a DM.

The minute the Shima enters the DM's detection circle (approx 10.9 km), the DM is going to have a message saying he's been detected. If there's no one on the minimap to show who that ship is spotting him, then he'll have to suspect it's a dd spotting him. He has a couple of choices then: 

1) turn on the radar and hope to pick him up

2) turn on the hydro and start torpedo beating when the priority target flickers on and off.

 

The Shima can stay out of radar range and stealth torp the DM and keep him spotted, but he'll have to be aware that the DM knows he's been spotted.

Now add a new twist. The DM CO has RDF CO skill.  His RDF tells him the closest ship is THAT way. He's been detected, which means it's with a distance of  approximately 10.9 km. So if you have bearing and distance it gives you the location. The Shima also gets a message that he has been RDF'd.

So the lesson is that the ship may not be seen, but there's a message on your target ship screen saying he's already detected. RDF points to the nearest ship, but the target ship has a message saying she has been RDF'd. WG took out true stealth out of the picture since 0.5.7. You can ambush somebody, but not a total ambush. 

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16 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

  I don't know about you guys, but the idea of a Yamato sneaking to 14km and unloading into my Cruiser that is spamming shells at someone else is scary a.f.

18 km for a BB is an easy range to blap out a CA.  Now Conq has a 11 km detection rage. That's better than some CA's. Try running across one loaded with AP?

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11 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

18 km for a BB is an easy range to blap out a CA.  Now Conq has a 11 km detection rage. That's better than some CA's. Try running across one loaded with AP?

Yes, especially if that BB player is good.  Last night I was playing with my Zao in a division helping my DDs in Islands of Ice.  A Yamato player did exactly that.  Got a multi-citadel hit on me at 18km.  I didn't die in that single salvo, but I went from Full HP to less than 1/4.

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Stealth is there, but not nearly as effective as it once was. Over saturation of Radar, which is broken because it can go through mountains and more so that some of these ships can shoot over them, as well as even over saturation of hydro, has made DD's far less of a threat than they should be, namely IJN's overly nerfed ones. Thing is it's the time of he cruisers, and really only the DD's with good guns or high arcs are thriving cause most have decent torps, at least better spotted ranges than IJN and similar speed, but guns that they can toss IFHE on and just follow the meta of watch the world burn.

Sure, DD, CV, those I want the maximum concealment I can get, albeit with how many people try and snipe me and how often teams let DD's through not enough points for CE. Cruisers, good to have, not usually priority. BB's - honestly, much I've lol'ed at my Musashi with it because I made Yamamoto sort of a generic ship commander for the premiums I have (Musashi, Kami Clones, etc), honestly I never feel much of a need for the stealth because I'm spotted most of the time anyway by planes, DD's, the fact I'm on fire, etc. 

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I frequently fire my cruiser or BB guns to extend my detectability to see if a sneaky ship is near by.

Kinda makes their concealment useless.

I run RPF on my gunboat destroyers to counter lower detectable ships. 

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Being able to reposition or disengage without the enemy being able to see your movements is a huge deal. Unless WG removes stealth entirely, minimizing detection range will almost always be the meta choice for most ships in the game.

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21 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

I frequently fire my cruiser or BB guns to extend my detectability to see if a sneaky ship is near by.

Kinda makes their concealment useless.

I run RPF on my gunboat destroyers to counter lowers detectability. 

A "stealthy" Khab makes every non-DD concealment build useless. 

Edited by EmperorMaxwell
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34 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

I frequently fire my cruiser or BB guns to extend my detectability to see if a sneaky ship is near by.

Kinda makes their concealment useless.

I run RPF on my gunboat destroyers to counter lowers detectability. 

I do this on my BB if i have a good position at the start of a match to draw fire from trigger happy people, give my team something to shoot back at. It works really well.

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You have BBs now with concealment better than or equal to Cruisers.  Yeah, Stealth is a pretty d*mn big deal.

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I don't see radar as limiting DD players any. Most games I play (with a DD too) have 4-5 radar ships and 4-5 DDs in them. We've pretty much gotten used to radar and learned how to adapt to it. Essentially, all you have to do as treat your DD like it has a 10 km detection radius. This is why you see so many Gearings played -- they have 16.5 km torpedoes. In addition, you don't sit still in smoke anymore in the early part of the game, and you learn to "WASD hack your way out of Dodge" when radared.

Edited by Snargfargle
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3 hours ago, _Lord_Scott_ said:

Remove Stealth = Removing DD's

Hate me all you want.

 I SEE NO PROBLEM

Actually you remove CV and CA/CL too. Only BB would live more than 30 seconds with no concealment. Also I down voted you for your bait.

XOXOXOXO,

DD Mafia

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Is Stealth a Double-Edged Sword?

What does the OP have to do with the thread title?  AFAICT, nothing.

 

Is this just a sneaky way to lobby for buffs to Brit DDs?

 

Edited by iDuckman

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Playing destroyers is how you play the game on hard.

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4 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Yes, especially if that BB player is good.  Last night I was playing with my Zao in a division helping my DDs in Islands of Ice.  A Yamato player did exactly that.  Got a multi-citadel hit on me at 18km.  I didn't die in that single salvo, but I went from Full HP to less than 1/4.

So why then should the Yamato player be going for a stealth build so he can get to 14km undetected?  It's unnecessary and exposes him to a retaliation once he opens up.

To play a Yamato right is to do exactly what he did to you - get in the 15-20 km range and let those 460mm beasts rip everything apart.  Stealth in a BB is nice for brawler BBs like the Germans, not snipers like the IJN line.

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2 hours ago, prevans said:

So why then should the Yamato player be going for a stealth build so he can get to 14km undetected?  It's unnecessary and exposes him to a retaliation once he opens up.

To play a Yamato right is to do exactly what he did to you - get in the 15-20 km range and let those 460mm beasts rip everything apart.  Stealth in a BB is nice for brawler BBs like the Germans, not snipers like the IJN line.

The key to playing BBs effectively at high tiers is all about playing as aggressively as possible with out crossing that fine line of playing "too aggressive".  A BB 13.6km away poses a far bigger threat than one 20km away.  The closer a BB can get to a fight, the more accurate its shells are and the more influence it will be able to exert on the game.  BB AP can be devastating against destroyers and the last thing any radar cruiser ever wants to see is a BB pop up at mid to close range.....but a BB 20km away is just not as big a threat.

How aggressively a BB can safely play is almost entirely dependent on its concealment.  With the current HE spam meta, any BB that overextends will be focused down and punished hard.  It's tantamount to have an escape route planned at all times, and the easiest one is to just go dark.  If I'm playing a BB with 18km concealment, closing to less than 18km of the enemy poses an inherent risk because if things go bad, I have no means of disengaging.  But if my BB has a 13km concealment, I can get far closer to the enemy where I will be far more useful, and have the ability to disengage and go dark at any time.  

Concealment is incredibly important on all BBs.  

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33 minutes ago, yashma said:

The key to playing BBs effectively at high tiers is all about playing as aggressively as possible with out crossing that fine line of playing "too aggressive".  A BB 13.6km away poses a far bigger threat than one 20km away.  The closer a BB can get to a fight, the more accurate its shells are and the more influence it will be able to exert on the game.  BB AP can be devastating against destroyers and the last thing any radar cruiser ever wants to see is a BB pop up at mid to close range.....but a BB 20km away is just not as big a threat.

How aggressively a BB can safely play is almost entirely dependent on its concealment.  With the current HE spam meta, any BB that overextends will be focused down and punished hard.  It's tantamount to have an escape route planned at all times, and the easiest one is to just go dark.  If I'm playing a BB with 18km concealment, closing to less than 18km of the enemy poses an inherent risk because if things go bad, I have no means of disengaging.  But if my BB has a 13km concealment, I can get far closer to the enemy where I will be far more useful, and have the ability to disengage and go dark at any time.  

Concealment is incredibly important on all BBs.  

 

Massachusetts doesn't need it

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8 hours ago, JediMasterDraco said:

One of the greatest assets of destroyers since the game's inception has been their low detectability. And with the removal of OWSF, the best use of stealth has been to get as close as possible and dump a butt-load of torps straight into the most appropriate target and then running like hell. However, the current meta of the game has a lot of radar ships floating around and sheltering behind islands. Meaning ships that try to exploit their stealth to the fullest just put themselves at greater risk of get radar'd and blasted. We can hope that the introduction of Brit DDs will help normalize things, but considering from what I've seen they are DDs with no particular strength and lack Speed Boost... makes me wonder how many people will actually play them. I can honestly say at this point that the only one I'm interested in is Cossack. Oh well, it's not like they're coming out next patch so we have time. Please note that this is not a call to remove radar, it's more meant to spark discussion over how vital detection is nowadays and how useful it is in balancing.

Game mechanics used to balance ships will always be a heated topic.  WG has chosen concealment as a mechanic to balance DD's in the game. DD's need a lot of "love" to make them playable. This game is loosely set in the WW2 era. The stealth ability of in game DD's far exceed the technology of that era. This is part of the balancing WG has done. Without it DD's would be cannon fodder.

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13 hours ago, yashma said:

The key to playing BBs effectively at high tiers is all about playing as aggressively as possible with out crossing that fine line of playing "too aggressive".  A BB 13.6km away poses a far bigger threat than one 20km away.  The closer a BB can get to a fight, the more accurate its shells are and the more influence it will be able to exert on the game.  BB AP can be devastating against destroyers and the last thing any radar cruiser ever wants to see is a BB pop up at mid to close range.....but a BB 20km away is just not as big a threat.

I agree with everything you said here.  There is a BUT, and I'll get to it below.

13 hours ago, yashma said:

How aggressively a BB can safely play is almost entirely dependent on its concealment.  With the current HE spam meta, any BB that overextends will be focused down and punished hard.  It's tantamount to have an escape route planned at all times, and the easiest one is to just go dark.  If I'm playing a BB with 18km concealment, closing to less than 18km of the enemy poses an inherent risk because if things go bad, I have no means of disengaging.  But if my BB has a 13km concealment, I can get far closer to the enemy where I will be far more useful, and have the ability to disengage and go dark at any time.  

Here's where we disagree.  It's very difficult to go dark in a BB and you generally don't want to. 

In terms of the ability to go dark, it assumes (1) you're not on fire - you being on fire is probably one of the reasons you're wanting to go dark, (2) there isn't a DD that can spot you - this is unlikely in the scenario you appear to be describing (overextending in the early stages) and because DDs are probably moving in to try and torp you if you're out too far.

You also probably don't want to go dark, because unlike a DD which can fall back on torps, you aren't doing anything helpful while you're dark.  Most importantly, and particularly if you're in a Yamato like I was describing in my post, you want to be shooting and shooting all the time.  You want, and your team needs, those guns belting out 460mm death every 23 seconds.  It's much better to get out 3 or 4 volleys at 20km than it is to get off one volley at 13.5 km and then not shoot for a minute or two while you reposition.

I'm not saying that there aren't situations where stealth is nice, even in a BB, but playing a BB like a Zao (particularly IJN or other heavy hitters), is a serious mistake in my view.  If you overextend, do your best to angle and hope that you can shoot your way out of the problem.

Also, I'm not saying that there is never a situation where an IJN BB should not get in close.  Heck, I do it all the time when it's me against one cruiser etc.   My point is that it's much better to play a little cautious, particularly early on, as compared to charging in and then attempting to rely on stealth to get yourself out of a bad situation.

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I agree with several others who have stated Concealment is the most important value to any ship. Being able to drop detection and back off and heal or just to stop getting shot at is a vital part to being able to stay alive long enough for your contribution to the team to win to matter. 

 

On the prevelance of radar in the game yes there are a lot of ships with radar But it isn’t the end all trump to dds. Knowing each ships radar range and whether they can have it or not is vital information you should know especially if you are playing  a dd or light cruiser. Perusing the wiki if you are not familiar with a certain ship will give you all the needed information to know what ships have it and what don’t if you don’t already have an idea. 

 

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