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panther4deuce

why not predreadnought battleships

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I was looking at some of the premium ships for sale and noticed that there are several which were built or laid down prior to the turn of the last century. Case in point the Mikasa. So what I would like to suggest is that Wargaming develop some predreadnought battleships for tier two. I think this would add some variety to the mix, and also allow players to see what battleships looked like before the HMS Dreadnought came along. Many of these ships took part in the first world war and were not scrapped until the 1920's, so they would be contemporaries of the earlier dreadnoughts.  

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Might be fun.  However, these ships relied more heavily on secondary/tertiary guns than post Dreadnaught BBs.  And since WG made secondaries mostly useless, especially at lower tiers, I'm not sure how effective they'd be.

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12 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

HMS Majestic, of the Majestic class, for UK.

I'd vote for HMS Canopus. Faster than Majestic, and was engaged against both the Deutsches Kreuzergeschwader in the Falklands and the Turks at Gallipoli.

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38 minutes ago, panther4deuce said:

I was looking at some of the premium ships for sale and noticed that there are several which were built or laid down prior to the turn of the last century. Case in point the Mikasa. So what I would like to suggest is that Wargaming develop some predreadnought battleships for tier two. I think this would add some variety to the mix, and also allow players to see what battleships looked like before the HMS Dreadnought came along. Many of these ships took part in the first world war and were not scrapped until the 1920's, so they would be contemporaries of the earlier dreadnoughts.  

I can think of a couple of hurdles with pre-dreadnoughts in game as premium ships.

1. Cost to model and develop v/s how much WG would make on them. They would be low tier premiums for sale, reward ships or event ships. Much of the player base would label them as crap, and sell them off without looking at them. That's a lot of work for WG to put in for a free port slot.

2. Mikasa is very dreadnought like, when you get to the pre-dreadnoughts with 8" and 9.2" secondary guns, the game engine won't handle these well. 

I'd enjoy them as I'm a military history nerd, and working in ship design I really get to appreciate why and how things were done back then. Not everyone is in the same boat as I am.

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The problem with pre-dreadnoughts is that many PreDN classes had "secondary" guns that were almost as large as their main guns.  Some had 6" guns as secondaries, some 8" guns, some even had 9 or 10" guns as secondaries while their mains were 12" guns.

The problem is that realistically speaking, such heavy caliber secondaries were a  major part of the ship's firepower.  But in the WoWS model, secondaries aren't seen as such potent weapons, at least not individually.  It's probably a very tricky design and programming problem to deal with pre-dreadnought secondaries.  (Not to mention the guns on similar era "armored cruisers", which are arguably the cruiser or battlecruiser equivalent of a pre-dreadnought.)

In theory, it'd be great if all nations had pre-DNs at tier 2 and you started a nation's BB line at tier 2 with its pre-dreadnought, rather entering it at tier 3 with the first dreadnought.  But I don't see this happening anytime soon, if ever.

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Pure Pre-Dreads don't fit the game model well. Mikasa is the perfect example of this. More, tiers 1 and 2, the ships are meant to be fun to play, more pure fun than any other tiers, to help engage new players. New players will, and do, find Mikasa very frustrating to play, due to her main guns, and new players find her very frustrating to play against, due to her secondaries. That's not a good recipe. Personally, I find her amusing to play, however, I don't think flooding the game with ships that will in essence have to function just like her is a good idea.

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35 minutes ago, Hookie_Bell said:

I'd vote for HMS Canopus. Faster than Majestic, and was engaged against both the Deutsches Kreuzergeschwader in the Falklands and the Turks at Gallipoli.

I went Majestic, because that was the ship that really set the standard for majority of all pre-dreadnaughts. Mikasa was based on the very layout of the Majestic.

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@panther4deuce as others stated the odd mix of 2ndarys and tertiaries many being better than the mains created a unique problem. With the Mikasa they made the 2ndarys much better than the mains which results in great close quarters combat however in almost every instance the mains are basically useless.  Your suggestion was made by a few when the Mikasa showed up and the above was WGs explanation about why more weren't going to follow right away. Someone even asked for the Monitor and Merrimac!

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Pre-dreads have issues that WG doesn't want to deal with. Simple as that.

  • The mixed caliber main guns. WoWs simply was not designed with the capability to handle different caliber and different sized main guns. They solved this with Kawachi by making all her guns the same caliber and type. Mikasa was lucky in the sense hers were also all consistent.
  • Secondaries are nerfed heavily. WG doesn't see them as a real means of balancing ships, because balancing secondaries is also difficult. With accuracy closer to main guns, they become too lethal. With stormtrooper accuracy, they aren't lethal, but are also not very effective.
  • Large caliber secondaries is something WG has stated they refuse to touch, because it's already problematic trying to balance secondary accuracy; what more if they balanced large caliber secondaries differently from small caliber secondaries, assuming it's even possible.
  • The rest of the issue lies with balancing them against T2 and T3 cruisers and DDs, where again, if the secondaries are too good, practically make them impossible to stop. But if they're bad, no one really would want to stay at T2 with a pre-dread unless they were given better main gun accuracy, which is also a no-go.
  • Basically, WG is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Though it's due to how they set up the game in the first place, unlike others where direct control of secondaries is possible.

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24 minutes ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

@panther4deuce as others stated the odd mix of 2ndarys and tertiaries many being better than the mains created a unique problem. With the Mikasa they made the 2ndarys much better than the mains which results in great close quarters combat however in almost every instance the mains are basically useless.  Your suggestion was made by a few when the Mikasa showed up and the above was WGs explanation about why more weren't going to follow right away. Someone even asked for the Monitor and Merrimac!

Monitor would fit very well at t1 or 2. Merrimack, not so much.

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1 hour ago, Wolcott said:

Borodino was leaked by SEA group a few months ago. No sign of it since.

DZtKEcRVQAALrqt.jpg:large

00-1.png

so it's the antithesis of mikasa?reliable main guns with baby secondaries?

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I would play the hell out of these if implemented! Would love to brawl with these old gals! Even if it was a separate mode, so no seal clubbing.

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I was about to mention ships like the Maine (ACR-1) and the Indiana (BB-1), but I wasn't really aware of the game design issues involving secondaries and the like. 

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2 hours ago, Wolcott said:

Borodino was leaked by SEA group a few months ago. No sign of it since.

DZtKEcRVQAALrqt.jpg:large

00-1.png

How the heck did I miss this?!  Well, at least we know WG is listening.

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39 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

so it's the antithesis of mikasa?reliable main guns with baby secondaries?

Or it'll have both good main guns and good secondaries; because #StillSalty'BoutTsushima. They also refuse to buff Mikasa, despite some of their own playerbase having asked it in Russian Q&As.

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1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

I can think of a couple of hurdles with pre-dreadnoughts in game as premium ships.

1. Cost to model and develop v/s how much WG would make on them. They would be low tier premiums for sale, reward ships or event ships. Much of the player base would label them as crap, and sell them off without looking at them. That's a lot of work for WG to put in for a free port slot.

2. Mikasa is very dreadnought like, when you get to the pre-dreadnoughts with 8" and 9.2" secondary guns, the game engine won't handle these well. 

I'd enjoy them as I'm a military history nerd, and working in ship design I really get to appreciate why and how things were done back then. Not everyone is in the same boat as I am.

As a senior programmer and application designer, I surmise that the game engine could treat multiple secondaries pretty much the same way it treats multiple AAA batteries, likely as algebraic summations of the RNG results in a few lines of boolean embedded in a function block.

 

Not difficult to code at all, really.

 

The model for the Turrene looks like a "customized" Danton-class ship already.

Edited by Ministre_de_la_Marine
correction
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Even slower. Even worse dispersion. Perhaps even zero concealment due to mile high plumes of ash particles?

No thanks.

Edited by thebigblue

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29 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

Even slower. Even worse dispersion. Perhaps even zero concealment due to mile high plumes of ash particles?

No thanks.

Hell, blue, I'd think that most ships below tier 5 would have coal fired boilers and thus should be vastly more visible than those with oil fired boilers.  Maybe even more visible than the worst concealment BBs like the Izumo, GK, or Yammy.  OTOH, one could argue that while you could see the thick black smoke, and that would give you plenty of warning that a ship was in the vicinity of that smoke, you might not be able to see the ship itself at any greater range than you would with oil fired boilers.

I personally wish that ships with coal fired boilers were putting out seriously thick black smoke, if only for more historical immersion reasons.

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Hell, blue, I'd think that most ships below tier 5 would have coal fired boilers and thus should be vastly more visible than those with oil fired boilers.  Maybe even more visible than the worst concealment BBs like the Izumo, GK, or Yammy.  OTOH, one could argue that while you could see the thick black smoke, and that would give you plenty of warning that a ship was in the vicinity of that smoke, you might not be able to see the ship itself at any greater range than you would with oil fired boilers.

I personally wish that ships with coal fired boilers were putting out seriously thick black smoke, if only for more historical immersion reasons.

Yeah, I know, and you make some really good points. I was just having fun and fooling around with that post.

Honestly, I’m down for whatever new content wargaming wants to put out. Well, maybe not sternwheelers and canoes..

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1 hour ago, Ministre_de_la_Marine said:

As a senior programmer and application designer, I surmise that the game engine could treat multiple secondaries pretty much the same way it treats multiple AAA batteries, likely as algebraic summations of the RNG results in a few lines of boolean embedded in a function block.

 

Not difficult to code at all, really.

 

The model for the Turrene looks like a "customized" Danton-class ship already.

Not really a coding issue, but mechanics.

Secondaries actually fire projectiles to interact with the armor models. Secondary guns can shatter, citadel, bounce and normally pen just like main battery guns. Secondaries in game have a low hit chance, and as a result need a relatively high rate of fire to give consistent results. The 8" secondary guns on the Kaga are great examples of how the game doesn't work well with slow firing secondaries. Once in a blue moon, Kaga will citadel a cruiser or double dip on a destroyer, but most days, those guns are useless. Fortunately, as a CV, she's got a good battery of 5 inch secondary guns for the rare occasions that she needs them. WG would have to add a system where secondaries would get more accurate the longer they fired at a target, simulating gunners correcting their aim as they fired. I'm pretty sure that would be a bad idea to have at higher tiers on smaller guns.

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20 hours ago, YamatoA150 said:

Or it'll have both good main guns and good secondaries; because #StillSalty'BoutTsushima. They also refuse to buff Mikasa, despite some of their own playerbase having asked it in Russian Q&As.

If WG is still salty about Tsushima then they wouldn't have bothered making Mikasa to begin with. Is it really so hard for them to just give her the option to mount Secondary Battery Mod 2 at least? 20% is not going to make Mikasa ridiculously OP all of a sudden. Same goes for Borodino if/when it comes.

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I'd love to see this happen but, I suspect, WG would figure some way to add Radar to these ships (a tethered balloon or airship); some novel consumable that quickly becomes an OP tool; and, we'd see outer-space, glow in the dark camouflage and lightning bolts coming out of the BP guns....  After all, they are tired of the early 20th century at this point !  Why would they ever go backwards.....  ???  Even if us "customers" may actually want that???

 

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