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High tier DD woes affecting newbs too

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I've noticed alot of threads regarding game imbalances at higher tiers. (particularly radar killing the ability to successfully play DD's.) This is affecting would-be DD drivers as well I think. I'm quite new and took an immediate liking to the destroyers. I even felt I was progressing quite nicely with em. Then I hit the mid tiers. Almost continually blotted from existence shortly after first contact. I think a lot of the skilled players are playing down to the mid tiers to avoid perceived issues at the higher ones. I'm sure much of my dilemma  is inexperience on my part, but if the higher skilled players aren't coming down, my skills are actually devolving, or the natural skill level between tiers is off the charts. This can be quite discouraging at times. So much so I'm pretty much limiting myself to co-op, which is unfortunate because I've always believed the faster way to improvement is to face a challenge slightly better than you are. Bots are fairly predictable, so limited improvements there, and the players at my own tier level seem to surpass me enough where I may as well set fire to my own magazine. And grinding with the paltry co-op xp should be considered a form of torture. End of newb moaning for today.

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Well maybe I can offer a bit of advice. I began by playing DD and I still do. I started by playing IJN, realizing what they did wasn't really what I wanted to do, so I went RU and then USN right after.

The radar heavy nature of matches, even at T7 currently is oppressive for DD. With many playing their Indianapolis and Atlantas on sale, it's a frequent flyer.

I see you're sitting at 129 battles, this is early days in your WOWS career, don't get too bummed out. I hung up PvP for a bit and then played basically the whole way to lvl 15 in coop, just so I had the basics down. If you can play a DD with the death laser hardon AI has for DD, you are ready to PvP.

I might have played 300 battles in Coop as a DD before I felt I wasn't a burden to my team.

DD is a very nuanced class with small changes amounting to big ones in your matches.

Keep it up!

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I'm a DD main. I played Clemson for about 500 games til I got the hang of things. When I decided to progress, I switched to RU DDs because I like shooting all the time. Once I hit tier VI, it was really really tough--getting killed all the time (this was before the radar proliferation)--but in time, I learned how to do it. 

Its possible that you are just adjusting to the difficulty of higher tier ships. In lower tiers, you can get focused by a bb and a few cruisers and dispersion will save you. That doesn't work at higher tiers (usually). You have to know how far to be and how to move. 

Ive heard that some DD mains are sticking to mid tier now, but I play almost exclusively at Tier x and see plenty of DDs, so I'm not sure what percentage have backed off high tier play. 

In short, playing DD at higher tiers is not as bad as the threads would make it seem. I cap early very frequently in my grozzo without getting radared and if I do, I split. It is rare for me to get deleted at the beginning of a match. If I do get deleted, it's usually from eating torps and not getting radared (grozzo is a bit of a slug for torp dodging). Experience helps surviving radar, as does playing a strong ship (grozovoi has lots of tricks), but it is absolutely possible to still enjoy high tier play with multiple radar cruisers. You just gotta be a little more conservative and not push too far ahead and never leave your support. 

If you love DDs and enjoy RU dds, I'd recommend taking that line to tier X first. They are the least affected by radar ships and are very good counters to US radar cruisers as they can stay back and burn them while the US shell arcs (usually) miss. 

I personally love playing my tier X DDs because I never get uptiered.  Radar just doesn't seem like much of a factor. (Or maybe I'm just used to it.)

Good luck and have fun. 

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Don't let those threads affect you. The forum is here to help people, so not everyone understands how it works and get a bit grumpy by that.
Just try to learn from your mistakes and you'll get there. In overall this game is difficult to learn and in general you'll need 1,000+ matches to understand the basics of this game. Of course you got some seal clubbers in the lower tier matches, but you will also come across people who are that good in the higher tiers. All you can do is learn from them.

I always recommend to follow multiple lines when you start with this game. With only 54 matches in Random battles you got a long way to go, though there are also people who really enjoy themselves in Coop only.

Good luck and try to play in divisions with others ;)

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Thanks for the advice. I've been alternating grinding my cruiser and destroyer. I've been running german boats exclusively simply because I don't know which nation has the best of each. I wanted to spend more time playing than researching each countries pros/cons. Any suggestions on the better DD and cruiser nations? I really don't want to watch another youtube series right now. If I watch one more video on how to not get wrecked as a DD, and then promptly get wrecked as a DD I'm gonna lose my crap.

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1 hour ago, Dolphin48 said:

I'm sure much of my dilemma  is inexperience on my part, but

You said it and you know what they say, "anything said after but is irrelevant". 

This is the reason you are getting deleted as soon as you are getting into your first engagements. Mid tiers are where most experienced casual players live so you are simply running into experienced players more often rather than the new players that you are used to fighting. These guys know what they are doing. Take some time to study ship strengths and weaknesses, learn what boats have radar, get in the habit of checking for them at the beginning of each battle, research some low tier guides on youtube and simply understand that it is going to take some time to get on their level. Also, understand that while caps are important, simply rushing in the first 2 minutes of the match with no back up at the cap is not worth the cap itself. Stay on the down low, dont engage until you know where the majority of the red team is located (more often than not the team will be depending on you for this so be active and be in the front but not so far forward that your allies cant support you). Hit the + key a few times and keep an eye on the minimap at all times. The strength of your DD exponentially grows with each red ship death so you are strongest near the mid and late rounds of the game. Staying quiet and simply keeping ships spotted for your allies to damage or slowing a red push down with area denial torps can be just as beneficial to the team as the damage you do personally. As you get into tier VII you will see more and more radar. Again, count them on the load in screen, study their ranges and durations, get to know them and play safe until you know where they are. That doesnt mean that you should be behind BBs, CLs and CAs, it just means that you should be extra cautious of ambushes and no matter where you go, have an exit plan.

Good luck.

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22 minutes ago, Dolphin48 said:

I wanted to spend more time playing than researching each countries pros/cons. Any suggestions on the better DD and cruiser nations? I really don't want to watch another youtube series right now. If I watch one more video on how to not get wrecked as a DD, and then promptly get wrecked as a DD I'm gonna lose my crap.

Although I understand what you are saying, watching these videos from various content providers and mixing what they say with what works for you really is how one can get better. That and with time of course. To be completely honest, no one here can suggest to you what boats you should try. We simply dont know your play style and with you being such a new player, you likely dont know exactly what play style you like as it may change as you get into different ships. One piece of advice I can offer however is research your captain skills properly. This is absolutely key. Having a captain speced for one style of play with a ship speced for another or having both speced for one style of play then not sticking to that play style can be really harmful to your performance. Plus some specs are completely wasted on certain ships.

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6 minutes ago, smf117 said:

Although I understand what you are saying, watching these videos from various content providers and mixing what they say with what works for you really is how one can get better.

I absolutely agree. But there's so much to learn right now,and I don't want to spend all my time watching videos. I'd like to play a little too. But spending all my time grinding german boats only to find out they're crap compared to something else would suck.

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1 minute ago, Dolphin48 said:

I absolutely agree. But there's so much to learn right now,and I don't want to spend all my time watching videos. I'd like to play a little too. But spending all my time grinding german boats only to find out they're crap compared to something else would suck.

I get it man but like I said, it takes time. You dont have to spend all your time watching videos or on the wiki page reading. Just a video a day or a little time clicking through the tech tree between battles while waiting on Divmates to exit battle is all it takes. Youre new so play around. Research each DD at tier 6 and bounce around. Get a feeling for them and figure out what works for you then go from there. USN DDs are jack of all trade boats, good balanced builds work best in them. IJN DDs are torp boats, full torp builds are best. KMS DDs are strongest against other DDs so play accordingly. RU DDs, cant say much about them simply because I dont know much about them. Never looked into them. PA DDs are just like the USN DDs but with deep water torps. Deep waters CANNOT strike other DDs but they are great knife fighters and depend heavily on smoke use in the mid tiers. USN DDs require you to play smart with predictions of red ship movements and proper use of Islands. (Proper use of Islands and ambush tactics are valid across all nations mid tiers but USN DDs require it much more than others)

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I'm gonna stray from my germans for a while and bring a couple others up to t4 and see if anything else strikes my fancy. 

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2 hours ago, Dolphin48 said:

I've noticed alot of threads regarding game imbalances at higher tiers. (particularly radar killing the ability to successfully play DD's.) This is affecting would-be DD drivers as well I think. I'm quite new and took an immediate liking to the destroyers. I even felt I was progressing quite nicely with em. Then I hit the mid tiers. Almost continually blotted from existence shortly after first contact. I think a lot of the skilled players are playing down to the mid tiers to avoid perceived issues at the higher ones. I'm sure much of my dilemma  is inexperience on my part, but if the higher skilled players aren't coming down, my skills are actually devolving, or the natural skill level between tiers is off the charts. This can be quite discouraging at times. So much so I'm pretty much limiting myself to co-op, which is unfortunate because I've always believed the faster way to improvement is to face a challenge slightly better than you are. Bots are fairly predictable, so limited improvements there, and the players at my own tier level seem to surpass me enough where I may as well set fire to my own magazine. And grinding with the paltry co-op xp should be considered a form of torture. End of newb moaning for today.

Watch and learn....

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2 hours ago, Dolphin48 said:

I've noticed alot of threads regarding game imbalances at higher tiers. (particularly radar killing the ability to successfully play DD's.) This is affecting would-be DD drivers as well I think. I'm quite new and took an immediate liking to the destroyers. I even felt I was progressing quite nicely with em. Then I hit the mid tiers. Almost continually blotted from existence shortly after first contact. I think a lot of the skilled players are playing down to the mid tiers to avoid perceived issues at the higher ones. I'm sure much of my dilemma  is inexperience on my part, but if the higher skilled players aren't coming down, my skills are actually devolving, or the natural skill level between tiers is off the charts. This can be quite discouraging at times. So much so I'm pretty much limiting myself to co-op, which is unfortunate because I've always believed the faster way to improvement is to face a challenge slightly better than you are. Bots are fairly predictable, so limited improvements there, and the players at my own tier level seem to surpass me enough where I may as well set fire to my own magazine. And grinding with the paltry co-op xp should be considered a form of torture. End of newb moaning for today.

Radar is not necessarily killing DD play at higher tiers, I play X Yeuyang however....

It has required a change in gameplay and to my way of thinking reduced the play options for instance capping right away till you know we’re the Radar ships are is foolish even though players start yelling at you and I put back my 13 k slower Torps so all in all it’s a less aggressive DD play Radar has caused

now it could be that because many of us have played this game pre Radar we’re bias so for you ,you may not be bothered all that much,

No worries.. DD play high tier is still fun

 

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11 minutes ago, Deathlord_48 said:

hey how is everyone today

 

 

Getting ready for work and shining a light for noobs!

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3 hours ago, Dolphin48 said:

particularly radar killing the ability to successfully play DD's.

Radar exists at lower tiers also but it's range is limited...it is called hydro at the lower tiers & even though it also exists at the higher tiers hydro's range is increased (which is exactly what radar is...hydro w/it's range increased even further...but w/a much shorter action time)…& both are just extensions of what makes this game unique...assured acquisition [the ability to detect any ship w/in 2 km (3km at mid tiers & up w/the upgrade) of you]...which even the unicums would have had a much harder experience in the lower tiers against the bots when learning this game because coming around an island & having no warning that a ship is going to be immediately opening up on you with no advanced warning (even a bot) when you are just learning how to even aim in the game would make only the truly unicum players (the ones w/the 60% win rates that never rerolled) ever able to learn the game in the 1st place.

It is much easier to extend far into the caps to not only cap but also spot for your team at the same time in lower tiers & that habit is hard to break when you are so used to it being the norm...w/radar if there isn't a large island in the cap for you to dive behind to wait out the radar you need to enter the cap at just the close edge (as far away from the islands on the reds side where radar ships can hide as possible) in almost a U-turn with your nose pointed at a convenient island just outside the cap to dive behind...& don't let the "I only need 3 more seconds to finish capping" OCD do you in...that island is called your exit plan for a reason...so when it's time to exit...exit...the cap will still be there...& you are more valuable to your team later in the game than that cap is at the beginning (or anytime for that matter).

It's ideal to not jump in the cap before you know where all the radar ships are located on the red team & you know it's safe but sometimes going into the cap is the best way to flush them out...but make sure you have an exit plan for all scenarios where they can pop out at you from before entering...& that is something you should have been considering from the start of the battle & be lined up for way before you get anywhere near the cap...whichever cap you decide to go for.

 

1 hour ago, Dolphin48 said:

But spending all my time grinding german boats only to find out they're crap compared to something else would suck.

They are crap compared to something else...every ship in this game is crap compared to something else...but that something else can only be determined by you when you try out all the different ships & figure out which 1s work best for you. There is just so many ships in this game that nobody can possibly give you an answer to that question & you yourself will probably not know for sure until much later on.

The important thing is to have fun while figuring it out...if it stops being fun (as in your radar troubles)...

46 minutes ago, Dolphin48 said:

I'm gonna stray from my germans for a while and bring a couple others up to t4 and see if anything else strikes my fancy. 

Never mind...as that is what I was gonna suggest so it would kinda be redundant at this point.

You just listened to the advice some experienced players on the forums...you are already way ahead of the game (+1 for that btw)...

35 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

Watch and learn....

^^^that video for DD play is definitely worth watching...it goes along w/my comment "with your nose pointed at a convenient island just outside the cap to dive behind"...smoke is defeated by radar so islands are your friends.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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Just now, Dolphin48 said:

I'm gonna stray from my germans for a while and bring a couple others up to t4 and see if anything else strikes my fancy. 

That's a good idea.  Play a bunch of nations, and ship types to T4 or 5 to get an idea what you like to play (and to improve your game).  Don't get hung up on the "goal" of grinding your way to high tiers.  The real goal is to learn the game, and to have fun.

Some general advice.  The first thing we've already touched on, learn the game first, then move up the tiers.  Take your time at the lower tiers, play a ton of different ships.  Learn the strengths and weaknesses of each ship type.  Don't worry about what ship type/nation to grind until you find your feet in lower tiers.  All lines have good, and some bad ships.  None are really better than others, its just a matter of play style that separates them. 

As smf said there are a lot of very experienced players in the mid tiers.  These guys know the game and they can run you over.  That's not fun, and its a tough environment to learn in so don't rush headlong into it until you're ready.  Play PVP as much as you can.  You can play co-op but don't let that fool you into believing its the same as playing against players.  

Once you do feel you're ready to move up you'll need to understand that things change at mid tiers (and again at high tier).  As you probably figured out the lowest tiers are an all out brawl, and that starts to change at t4-5.  At T5 and up the ships start to play their defined roles.  This will be another learning curve.  Add to that the experienced players you will face, and its where understanding the game mechanics really starts to matter.  That is really fun place to play if you're ready for that level.

As mentioned already, you'll play a thousand games before you really start to understand the nuance of the game.  You can get there and the forum is here to help.  Don't be afraid to ask questions and good luck out there.   

    

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A belated welcome to the forums!

Tier 5 is a big jump in general, and it is exacerbated by the fact that, for whatever reason, a lot of the tier 5 DDs tend to be relative low points of their respective lines.  The T-22, if that is what you've been playing, takes this to an extreme.  Maneuverability bad, guns awful, no hydro yet, detection nothing to write home about - the torpedoes are OK, nothing special, but that is about it.  I did not say "hot garbage."  Someone else can say "hot garbage."

What made the T-22 click for me, relatively speaking, was someone's advice to play it as a fleet boat - a few kilometers in front of your support, but not off on your own.  You can probe caps, but early in the game always be ready to get out. i.e., either back in or enter on an angle and turn immediately so you can accelerate out.  This is also good advice for dealing with radar.  Also, you have absolutely no business engaging in a solo gun duel with any other destroyer on the map not named Mutsuki (well, a couple others maybe), although if your allies are shooting them go ahead and pile on.

Short version: both the ship and the tier are designed to teach you to play conservatively, something you often did not need to do in the V-170.

Also, do you have a ten point captain with concealment expert yet?  You can get away without this playing destroyers at lower tiers, but it stops being fun or viable if you don't like dying.  So whatever else you do, if you still need points, I might drop that captain back to one of your lower tier ships and train him up a bit before returning to the T-22 (unless you have free captain xp laying around, which you probably don't at this point.)

I do concur with the idea that playing a lot of DD at tiers 3-4 to hone your skills is a good idea - I have over a hundred games each in Izyaslav and Clemson, more than any other DDs I've played.  But even if you are an absolute killer at tier 4, there is no way around the big hill at tier 5.

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13 minutes ago, Lillehuntrix said:

Short version: both the ship and the tier are designed to teach you to play conservatively, something you often did not need to do in the V-170.

Also, do you have a ten point captain with concealment expert yet?  You can get away without this playing destroyers at lower tiers, but it stops being fun or viable if you don't like dying.  So whatever else you do, if you still need points, I might drop that captain back to one of your lower tier ships and train him up a bit before returning to the T-22 (unless you have free captain xp laying around, which you probably don't at this point.)

This +1.  The German grind through T4 is a load of fun.  But the T-22 is fundamentally different in play style.  You lose the forward mount torps, which are great in the lower tiers.  And now you're frequently bottom tier, facing a lot of ships with hydro and a couple with radar.  Plus a lot of T10 players drop down to play T7 to earn some credits.  The Gaede is a better ship than the T-22 (as it should be).  But the German DD's from the T-22 on up play a lot more like the T-22 than the earlier ships.  

If you grind up any other lines, the US DD line doesn't have a drastic change in play style.  US DD's from Clemson on up are pretty similar.  And the Clemson is a fun ship to play. 

But the biggest thing is captain skill.  Lack of a 10 point captain with CE severely handicaps any DD beyond T4.  If you can push past the T-22 and get at least one T6 ship, do so.  Then use it in Ops like Killer Whale.  Getting 4 stars in KW gets you a 10 point German captain (you get a 10 point Russian for Aegis, and a 10 point Japanese captain for Newport).  You'll have to 'retrain' him for your ship, but once that's done you'll have a captain with CE.  That makes a big difference and will help a LOT going forward.  

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I started playing this game around March or April 2017, and I play mostly cruisers and DDs.  For a long while it was almost exclusively DDs, until I finished the grind  up to Fletcher, Gearing, Yugumo, and Z-52.  I'm not a fantastic player, but probably not as bad as my stats would indicate.  It depends on the ship, and I tend to be grinding a lot of ships at any given time, so there is a constant learning curve. Anyway, as others have said, don't jump straight into caps until you locate where the red fleet is going.  It's okay to skirt right up the edge of caps, preferably with a handy island nearby you can jump behind.  But the second you actually enter the cap and start changing its color (or prevent it from continuing to change color if the other side got there first), they'll know roughly where you are, even without radar.  At high tiers, you will usually have torpedoes with a range of at least 10.5 km.  If you have a fast reload, like Z-52 or Fletcher, or Yugumo with TRB, you can afford to blind fire into choke points, smoke, or other places enemy ships will likely sail.  If they don't know you're there, you'd be surprised how often you can land some hits.  My problem is usually that I'll have some early successes, and then start to get greedy, and too aggressive, which often gets me killed.

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So I'm gonna score tier 3-4 destroyers and cruisers from Ger, US, and IJN, Picked up the Konig Albert for BB practice. Guess you could say I plan on seal clubbing for a while.......except I'm a seal.

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The radar meta has created several gameplay issues and has messed up traditional roles quite a bit.  I no longer play tiers 9 or 10.  It's just non value added anymore as a DD driver in the IJN line.

I went back to grind the IJN 2d line DD's and ran smack into the radar meta at tier 5.  What a mess with 4 tier 7 radar cruisers seal clubbing the tier 5 CPT........my torps and gun couldn't even reach the cruisers.....  After 5 times as many games as it should have taken, the tier 6 IJN 2d line DD is just as bad in a worse environment.

So, AVOID IJN DD's.  The Kagero at 5.4 detect is my "go to" IJN DD and I can at best, break even financially against 8 and up.  W/L is an absolute mess but, I'm not losing in game money.  I've stopped spending real money as well and this is now a F2P for me. 

The radar meta and HE spam are making the game, from tier 5 on up not playable with traditional roles.  We are losing new players and some clans are "just not interested" in T5 and up......  that's not good.  Out clan can only field a division now.

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I haven't made it far enough to run into the radar meta, but I've certainly seen enough threads to not disregard it. The problem is IMO is that since the 3 (not counting carriers) classes of ship play so differently, and have fairly specific roles, anything you do to remove a disadvantage of one ship, is going to create a disadvantage for another. There's really not much that can be done for experienced players chasing away new players. You could ban players who reach a certain tier of ship from joining lower tier fights, but if someone spent real $ on all the premium lower tier ships, you certainly can't tell him he can't use them in PvP anymore because he "got gud". "Seal clubbing" (and as an atlantic Canadian I happen to love that term) mostly discourages younger players I'd imagine. I just plan on taking my lumps, and trying to support my team before some dude in a canoe with 10,000 battles blots me out of existence. They say patience is a virtue, so I figure if I have enough of it, eventually I can get to the point when I can club me some seals too.

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16 minutes ago, Dolphin48 said:

I haven't made it far enough to run into the radar meta, but I've certainly seen enough threads to not disregard it. The problem is IMO is that since the 3 (not counting carriers) classes of ship play so differently, and have fairly specific roles, anything you do to remove a disadvantage of one ship, is going to create a disadvantage for another. There's really not much that can be done for experienced players chasing away new players. You could ban players who reach a certain tier of ship from joining lower tier fights, but if someone spent real $ on all the premium lower tier ships, you certainly can't tell him he can't use them in PvP anymore because he "got gud". "Seal clubbing" (and as an atlantic Canadian I happen to love that term) mostly discourages younger players I'd imagine. I just plan on taking my lumps, and trying to support my team before some dude in a canoe with 10,000 battles blots me out of existence. They say patience is a virtue, so I figure if I have enough of it, eventually I can get to the point when I can club me some seals too.

The problem here is that experienced people who DON'T spend money start new tech tree lines all the time, but don't have the credits or Free XP to just insert themselves into T5-6, so they start at T1 and work up. I'm a completely free player (I'm only premium due to it being gifted to me a little ways back), and I just did this with the French and UK cruiser and BB lines, plus the Soviet cruiser line, after racking up most of my 900+ battles in T5-7 in German cruisers and BBs and US BBs for the past 4-6 months. Am I wrecking enemy teams of T3-4 newbies? You bet your [edited]lol. But I'm also trying to help friendly newbies when I see them making blatant mistakes, so there's a balance. Whether they listen in game is a completely different issue, however....:Smile-_tongue:

Also remember, once you hit T5, you lose protected matchmaking, which means instead of +1/-1 tiered teams, its +2/-1...so you'll start seeing T7s, which is going to be absolute hell if a player gets to that tier while still inexperienced.

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3 minutes ago, Stormie1126 said:

The problem here is that experienced people who DON'T spend money start new tech tree lines all the time, but don't have the credits or Free XP to just insert themselves into T5-6, so they start at T1 and work up. I'm a completely free player (I'm only premium due to it being gifted to me a little ways back), and I just did this with the French and UK cruiser and BB lines, plus the Soviet cruiser line, after racking up most of my 900+ battles in T5-7 in German cruisers and BBs and US BBs for the past 4-6 months. Am I wrecking enemy teams of T3-4 newbies? You bet your [edited]lol. But I'm also trying to help friendly newbies when I see them making blatant mistakes, so there's a balance. Whether they listen in game is a completely different issue, however....:Smile-_tongue:

Also remember, once you hit T5, you lose protected matchmaking, which means instead of +1/-1 tiered teams, its +2/-1...so you'll start seeing T7s, which is going to be absolute hell if a player gets to that tier while still inexperienced.

I was never saying they SHOULD do that, but I can't see any other way for true lower - mid tier balancing. 

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4 hours ago, Dolphin48 said:

I was never saying they SHOULD do that, but I can't see any other way for true lower - mid tier balancing. 

Well, look at it this way as well: the players who aren't experienced yet, and want to get better, what better way for them to gain said experience than by playing both with and against the more experienced? If a new player is making mistakes they don't realize they're making and is getting away with them because they're only facing other inexperienced players, they'll take that much longer to improve, and rather than a steady learning curve as you go up, you'd be hitting a wall, might get frustrated, and leave. The balancing comes in the ships in the tiers themselves-think how much worse it would be if you had a T3 battleship against a freakin' Yamato XD That's why a Bellerophon will only face things on a similar level, like a Kaiser. Sure the Kaiser is one tier up, but it's not so ridiculously overpowered compared to the Bellerophon that the Belle still has a chance, and even a pro player in one of them can only do so much damage in a certain timeframe to the newbie in the other.

And yeah, sometimes you're a newbie on a team of newbies against a team of experienced captains, and yeah, that can be frustrating...but again, it's also going to be the best learning experience, if the newbies are willing and able to look at any mistakes they made objectively.

Edited by Stormie1126

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