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Rabbitt81

High tier matches are rediculously unbalanced

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- We all know high tier game play is boring. Nobody pushes a cap, lots of sniping and sitting behind islands - Why is that though?

I have made it to the point of my grind to finishing out some of my tier 9's and unlocking tier 10's. Along the way, I have found some reoccurring problems with higher tier matches.

I just unlocked the Yamato so I play a half dozen or so matches with it and WOW is Cruiser HE spam a thing. It has become very obvious why nobody wants to advance to within 16k range of other ships when playing higher tiers.

 

I knew from experience that the Yammy is a big XP Pinata (comparable to the TOG in WOT) so a lot of the early match is spent staying behind other friendlies and pushing only with support.

The problem is that Cruisers can incinerate BB's with super fast firing HE spam as soon as they come within range so pushing in a BB is pretty well suicidal.

The radar gimmick keeps DD's from being able to scout or cap so there is even less incentive to advance. The bottom line is that these problems add up to forcing players to behave the way they do. 

 

There are some good ideas being floated here on the forum on how to fix these problems and some are quite good ideas. Once I unlock the rest of my tier 10's, I am likely not returning to high tiers until these issues are addressed.

Note: I play all classes of botes. I am not complaining about BB's in particular.  The Yamato just made these issues stand out the most. 

Edited by Rabbitt81
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12 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

I knew from experience that the Yammy is a big XP Pinata (comparable to the TOG in WOT) so a lot of the early match is spent staying behind other friendlies and pushing only with support.

 

You push only with support, duh. Or do you want bbs to be unstoppable go-whereever-I-want bulldozers? At tier 3-8 perhaps, at tier IX and X, learn about positioning! 

14 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

The problem is that Cruisers can incinerate BB's with super fast firing HE spam as soon as they come within range so pushing in a BB is pretty well suicidal.

 

High tier bbs are also known to have extremely deadly accurate salvos that turns cruisers into shipwrecks super quickley but you don't see me complaining.

16 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

The radar gimmick keeps DD's from being able to scout and spot so there is even less incentive to advance a cap. The bottom line is that these problems add up to forcing players to behave the way they do

 

Which is why all radar cruisers either exploades the moment bb shells touches them or can be seen from space. Your BBs needed the support of your team, and they needed yours too.

 

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16 hours ago, Rabbitt81 said:

-There are some good ideas being floated here on the forum on how to fix these problems and some are quite good ideas. Once I unlock the rest of my tier 10's, I am likely not returning to high tiers until these issues are addressed.

They will never be addressed. I've been trying to reduce the time I spend in T10 matches. One thing seldom mentioned that I really hate about them is the godawful maps. There is no map for T10s that I look forward to, save Ocean. 

Edited by Taichunger
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20 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

I just unlocked the Yamato so I play a half dozen or so matches with it and WOW is Cruiser HE spam a thing. It has become very obvious why nobody wants to advance to within 16k range of other ships when playing higher tiers.

The Yamato is the Yamato, she is a very spacial ship that requires a spacial way of playing her. But with all do respect, BBs are there to take hits for the fleet. That is why you have the highest HP pool and good armor to boot with the biggest guns in the game. You're suppose to be spotted and take hits the more hits you take the better that means they're not shooting at your cruisers and if the cruisers have a brain would work quickly to destroy there HE spammers.

24 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

I knew from experience that the Yammy is a big XP Pinata (comparable to the TOG in WOT)

^^ You're a BB its your duty to be a pinata. IF you are saving your HP and armor for the last half of the match you're just being a spectator to the sinking of your cruisers.

26 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

The problem is that Cruisers can incinerate BB's with super fast firing HE spam as soon as they come within range so pushing in a BB is pretty well suicidal.

^^^ hasen't been a problem from tier 5 on wards. Not the mention the double the Caliber of guns that your BB has, compared to those rapid firing light cruisers with paper  armor. You have the advantage to scare them off, if you die a burning flames its because you over extended to where you cpt abilities/skills could'nt save you.

31 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

The radar gimmick keeps DD's from being able to scout and spot so there is even less incentive to advance a cap. The bottom line is that these problems add up to forcing players to behave the way they do. 

That is a why as a high tiered BB player you aim for those radar cruisers asap to help your DD out. I commend higher tier DD drivers for trying to make the ever complicated radar meta work for them. No one can ghost fire so even cruisers once they shoot will reveal themselves to you.

34 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

There are some good ideas being floated here on the forum on how to fix these problems and some are quite good ideas. Once I unlock the rest of my tier 10's, I am likely not returning to high tiers until these issues are addressed.

Other then the out reach of radar along with the duration ( for which benefits the BB as well). The other concerns are negatable.The other points would affect the balance the already unbalanced tier 10 play style. I stay away from the tier, its really not compatible with my aggressive play style 

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@Rabbitt81 I have 2 US tier 10 CAs and the Montana along with a variety of Tier 8 and 9 DDs, CAs, BBs and 1 CV! I find the high tier random battles quite challenging and the HE vs huge BBs in those battles is no different tan it is in the lower tiers. In tier 3 a BB doesn't stand a chance against an HE firing St Louis. Yes the radar, sonar and RPF are annoying but since both team will have them they are no big deal. Just as in any other tier battle the team that makes the better moves based on their observation of the opponents action will usually prevail.

I doubt WG can or will try to fix good players reasons for being good!

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If you have issues with HE and fires you can invest in a survivability build. Provided you time your DCP well and dont get shafted by RNG you can be fine. Dont forget fires can be 100% repaired in contrast to AP damage.

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2 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

No one can ghost fire so even cruisers once they shoot will reveal themselves to you.

Wrong :)

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10 minutes ago, Commander_367 said:

Wrong :)

Care to explain how he is wrong? Unless you are talking about smoke shooting, the opportunities to be stealth firing are so rare it's not even viable anymore.

The only time you get a stealth salvo off now is that first blast that pulls you outta stealth.

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28 minutes ago, Canadatron said:

Care to explain how he is wrong? Unless you are talking about smoke shooting, the opportunities to be stealth firing are so rare it's not even viable anymore.

The only time you get a stealth salvo off now is that first blast that pulls you outta stealth.

Any cruiser with high arcs can fire invisibly behind islands … even some BBs

Worcester can do it forever at range

Edited by Commander_367
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35 minutes ago, Commander_367 said:

Any cruiser with high arcs can fire invisibly behind islands … even some BBs

Worcester can do it forever at range

That is not "ghost firing". Ghost firing was where you could sit out in the open and fire at ships undetected. This used to be possible before detection changes were made.

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23 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

That is not "ghost firing". Ghost firing was where you could sit out in the open and fire at ships undetected. This used to be possible before detection changes were made.

this is true. What is also true, however, is that there is functionally little difference apart from the fact island-spammers are usually a little closer. He's right you know.

 

IMO, something really needs to be done to discourage open-water Cruisers like VMF CLs from camping behind and shooting over islands. Maybe an xp decrease for spamming over an island, or something? Nah, that's terrible.

 

Still though, something needs to be done about it. At this point a good cruiser player can be nigh-invincible if positioned correctly. This needs to change

 

Right now though, aiming over islands is one way because whenever a BB tries to aim at a Cruiser and shoot them over the island(you'd be surprised just how many BBs could do this properly if it was fixed) the guns just refuse to aim over the island, and aim so low that the shells will all be taken by the island instead of the Cruiser.

 

If it was fixed so BBs shooting cruisers that are firing over islands was easier, Cruisers couldn't simply always camp behind an island to HE-spam.

 

just my 2 cents.

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1 minute ago, legoboy0401 said:

this is true. What is also true, however, is that there is functionally little difference apart from the fact island-spammers are usually a little closer. He's right you know.

 

IMO, something really needs to be done to discourage open-water Cruisers like VMF CLs from camping behind and shooting over islands. Maybe an xp decrease for spamming over an island, or something? Nah, that's terrible.

 

Still though, something needs to be done about it. At this point a good cruiser player can be nigh-invincible if positioned correctly. This needs to change

 

Right now though, aiming over islands is one way because whenever a BB tries to aim at a Cruiser and shoot them over the island(you'd be surprised just how many BBs could do this properly if it was fixed) the guns just refuse to aim over the island, and aim so low that the shells will all be taken by the island instead of the Cruiser.

 

If it was fixed so BBs shooting cruisers that are firing over islands was easier, Cruisers couldn't simply always camp behind an island to HE-spam.

 

just my 2 cents.

BBs need to move into a position they can fire at the ships? 

Everyone hides behind the closest rock they can find and screams for the DDs to go cap and spot. BBs if supporting the way they should be by tanking the damage would allow the DDs to do the very things they were meant to do.

Cruisers cannot hide behind an island if the enemy DDs can get behind them as well they will need to run.

Ever notice that the team whose BBs push the caps usually wins?

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Since the radars are so excessive now in WOWs , I've not only slowly stopped playing Tier 8 , 9 and 10 Battleships, I am now also slowly stopped playing my tier 8 ,9 ,10 Destroyers WGs may not realize this but they are slowly  KILLING their own game they've created and now I've noticed that the best sweet spots to play WOWs is tier 5 ,6 ,and 7 Where there is NO radars . So now all of my tier 8, 9, 10s ships will start to collect dusts and I have all the tier 10's with the exceptions of the tier 9 and 10's Carriers which is just plain broken at this time anyways.    

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13 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

BBs need to move into a position they can fire at the ships? 

Everyone hides behind the closest rock they can find and screams for the DDs to go cap and spot. BBs if supporting the way they should be by tanking the damage would allow the DDs to do the very things they were meant to do.

Cruisers cannot hide behind an island if the enemy DDs can get behind them as well they will need to run.

Ever notice that the team whose BBs push the caps usually wins?

Great idea, but unfortunately it rarely turns out in practice to be that simple. Usually those cruisers kill the enemy DDs and go back to happily HE-spamming the rest of the match. DDs die too easily to want to push, so BBs rarely are supported when pushing, and so those same darn enemy cruisers burn the BBs down easily, without any way for the BB to do anything about it. That's OP for you.

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2 minutes ago, KURT_WOLFF said:

Since the radars are so excessive now in WOWs , I've not only slowly stopped playing Tier 8 , 9 and 10 Battleships, I am now also slowly stopped playing my tier 8 ,9 ,10 Destroyers WGs may not realize this but they are slowly  KILLING their own game they've created and now I've noticed that the best sweet spots to play WOWs is tier 5 ,6 ,and 7 Where there is NO radars . So now all of my tier 8, 9, 10s ships will start to collect dusts and I have all the tier 10's with the exceptions of the tier 9 and 10's Carriers which is just plain broken at this time anyways.    

Yeah, I have 27 Surv. Radar IIs that I never use, because I don't own any ships that can mount it at this time. And you know what? I don't mind not having Radar. Besides, German Hydro can be used as an extremely short ranged, but long duration, radar (that can spot torps too)in the low-tiers.

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Had an excellent tier 10 match this morning that had a great balance of all types of ships. both teams played well and it came down to the last minute of the match

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T10 matches suck because instant or near instant death is everywhere and even a near 100k HP pool with 4 heals cant save you. 

Everything needs to be dialed down in T10 matches, fires, BB accuracy, cruiser spam, Midway and Hak TB's....

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18 minutes ago, legoboy0401 said:

Great idea, but unfortunately it rarely turns out in practice to be that simple. Usually those cruisers kill the enemy DDs and go back to happily HE-spamming the rest of the match. DDs die too easily to want to push, so BBs rarely are supported when pushing, and so those same darn enemy cruisers burn the BBs down easily, without any way for the BB to do anything about it. That's OP for you.

It is just that simple but like I said EVERYONE wants to hide and then scream for the DDs to go die so they can have targets to shoot at.

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2 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

It is just that simple but like I said EVERYONE wants to hide and then scream for the DDs to go die so they can have targets to shoot at.

...including Cruisers. Point taken.

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27 minutes ago, KURT_WOLFF said:

Since the radars are so excessive now in WOWs , I've not only slowly stopped playing Tier 8 , 9 and 10 Battleships, I am now also slowly stopped playing my tier 8 ,9 ,10 Destroyers WGs may not realize this but they are slowly  KILLING their own game they've created and now I've noticed that the best sweet spots to play WOWs is tier 5 ,6 ,and 7 Where there is NO radars . So now all of my tier 8, 9, 10s ships will start to collect dusts and I have all the tier 10's with the exceptions of the tier 9 and 10's Carriers which is just plain broken at this time anyways.    

I've retired all of my Tier 9 and 10's.  Gameplay there is non value added.  It's become an arcade FPS with little resemblance to the era this game uses as it's value proposition....  Tier's 5 through 8 are now imploding from the need to "push up" population into tiers 9 and 10 !  Since fewer players are chosing to play tiers 9 and 10.  MM is forced to acquire lower tiers and push them up.   A vast majority of my matches in tiers 6 through 8, I'm - 2 tiers; and, I've had it playing - 2 tiers down....not sometimes, all the time. 

Tier 5......wow.  Several days now they have been tier 7 battles with radar ships..... 4 or 5 radar tier 7 ships with tier 7 BB's !!!!  Talk about not being able to grind up !!!  I see 8 or 10 game losses in a row in tier 5 matches with all of the tier 7 ships we've been seeing.....   Good grief !  took me five times as long to grind through the second IJN DD tier 5 ships line !  

Look, say what you want but, as a customer, to those of you enjoying the meta/OP farming at the moment, you must understand, that many of us are NOT spending any time playing WoWs now....  It's not what we want in this game and we've stopped spending money and time...  There are other games out there that we're having a blast playing and paying for !!  We don't have enough players left to field a clan lads......  Cause and effect: you reap what you sow.

 

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t10 is not fun to play, I agree. Its also the one tier that is very hard to carry in, unless your a unicorn. Everyone sits back and waits for the bads to be bad and then advances when they have numbers. This is also why its hard to carry because you can position well, and yet your teammates go kill themselves leaving you in a bad spot. I have struggled with t9/t10 but I'll continue to play it. 

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6 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

If you have issues with HE and fires you can invest in a survivability build. Provided you time your DCP well and dont get shafted by RNG you can be fine. Dont forget fires can be 100% repaired in contrast to AP damage.

This mantra is getting annoying, and every HE spammer in the game likes to sing it.

Yes, fire damage can get repaired, that itself is not an issue.  Hand in hand with a BB player know how to use their consumables correctly comes the truth of the matter.  BB's are all too slow to escape and too lumbering to dodge with much facility. Couple this with the absurd rate of fire of shore battery, pardon I mean cruiser guns and the BB heal doesn't count for much unless the player is lucky.  As the fire is put out and the repair party activated, all said shore bat- cruiser need do is keep the rate of fire up and pound the BB down through the heal, since the incoming damage will vastly outmatch all but the stupid RN heal.  After the 15 second immunity period expires, an additional three or four fires will be started with casual aplomb and the HE spammer can continue with double dipping their guaranteed damage with nary a worry given to aim and no consideration at all given to angling or range.

HE/fire mechanics in this game are completely skewed, and encourage poor gameplay from both the shooter and the target.  HE spammers embrace their name to rack up their damage counters at the cost of their effectiveness, and the incessant napalm bombardment makes everyone play passively to avoid getting burned down, rear-camping battleships being the most visible offenders, but heavy cruiser players do it jut as often just without the stigma of daring to play a battleship in a game based on warships.

Both mechanics should be in, but both need to be gone over with a fine-toothed comb with an eye to making it not such a braindead method of play.  Off the cuff, I'd say either keep the guaranteed damage from HE shells, but make fire damage based off the caliber/payload of the shell. Or keep the damage gradients the same while granting more capability to survival captain skills.  Either way, or others, the mechanics themselves are wonky and only serve to encourage the passive gameplay everybody hates. Something needs to give if anyone wants higher tier matches to stop being an exercise in island camping 

Edited by Highlord
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7 hours ago, Rabbitt81 said:

- We all know high tier game play is boring. Nobody pushes a cap, lots of sniping and sitting behind islands - Why is that though?

I have made it to the point of my grind to finishing out some of my tier 9's and unlocking tier 10's. Along the way, I have found some reoccurring problems with higher tier matches.

I just unlocked the Yamato so I play a half dozen or so matches with it and WOW is Cruiser HE spam a thing. It has become very obvious why nobody wants to advance to within 16k range of other ships when playing higher tiers.

 

I knew from experience that the Yammy is a big XP Pinata (comparable to the TOG in WOT) so a lot of the early match is spent staying behind other friendlies and pushing only with support.

The problem is that Cruisers can incinerate BB's with super fast firing HE spam as soon as they come within range so pushing in a BB is pretty well suicidal.

The radar gimmick keeps DD's from being able to scout or cap so there is even less incentive to advance. The bottom line is that these problems add up to forcing players to behave the way they do. 

 

There are some good ideas being floated here on the forum on how to fix these problems and some are quite good ideas. Once I unlock the rest of my tier 10's, I am likely not returning to high tiers until these issues are addressed.

Note: I play all classes of botes. I am not complaining about BB's in particular.  The Yamato just made these issues stand out the most. 

Every time I hear another forum post of someone complaining about passive play / HE fire spam, I check to see if the person complaining has a survival rate below 40% which is a clear and undeniable indicator that they have pushed beyond the top of the bell curve (the sweet spot between smart aggression and proper health conservation) deep into the aggression side of the curve.  Dial back your aggression and get your survival rate to within 50-60% from the 31% it is now and you will realize the HE fire spam is not as much of a problem when you pay more attention to the minimap and don't over-extend yourself.  Every once in a while it's important to play the tank FOR A SHORT PERIOD, but if you're repeatedly putting yourself in a position where 2+ ships are shooting you at the same time, you are playing this game wrong.  You cannot mathematically return fire fast enough to deliver an even trade of damage let alone a net positive.  This simple math, and the application of it is what separates unicums from the rest of the player base.

If I can somehow make everyone experience what I was able to get this gentleman to experience (VGLance is my main account), it would put an end to much of the whine posts about campers and HE spam.  

IY9uy98.jpg

 

If you or any player for that matter are unable to maintain that equilibrium consistently, the ability to sit at the very top of that bell curve, you have to ask yourself is it a skill problem or a play style problem.  The latter meaning a conscious refusal to play more conservatively simply because it's not "fun."  Impatience, etc.  This often happens with players who play FPS games where you run out, die in 5 minutes, respawn and rinse and repeat.  It's similar to how blackjack players have a harder time transitioning to poker than the other way around because you play every hand in blackjack and in poker, you should be folding over 80% of your hands.

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You know, you can turn this argument around and say that the problem is that, at mid-tiers, battleships are at the peak of their overpoweredness with respect to cruisers, and that once you get a more balanced relationship at top tiers, it comes as a shock.

I mourn Warships Today, because Wows-Numbers drives me a bit crazy, but let's try to make this work.  Let's compare the relationship between battleships and cruisers at tier 10 versus tier 6.  At both tiers, battleships cluster above the cruisers (if we exclude Worcester and Salem for recency/low games/unicum effect) in terms of damage - this, in itself, suggests to me that tier 10 battleshipping is still not a futile exercise in the right hands.  But at tier 10, the difference between the lowest average damage battleship, Montana, and the highest average damage cruiser, Henri IV, is roughly 1000 points per game (roughly 80000 vs 79000) - or a one-point-something percent difference, while at tier 6, the lowest average damage battleship, New Mexico, is doing 5000 points more damage per game than the highest average damage cruiser, Graf Spee - and since in absolute terms we are talking about 40000 vs. 35000 the percentage difference is more like 14%.

Turning to K/D ratio - I would have preferred survival, but Wows-Numbers doesn't do this well (yes, I know, I could derive it, but who has the time?), so I'll use K/D as a proxy since it includes survival as a denominator -  we find something more interesting.  At tier 6, just like with damage, the battleships are all clustered above the cruisers.  At tier 10, however, they are much more mixed up, with Republique and Conqueror followed by Zao and Henri IV and so on down the line.  That is still not "cruiser dominance" - if that exists in this game, it's at tier 3 - but it is a much more balanced relationship.

Or just answer the question experientially.  Quick, given average players and no sub-6 km island ambush scenario, which is a fairer one-on-one fight: Montana vs. Hindenburg or Arizona (or New Mexico - don't want to cherry pick) versus Nurnberg?  The battleship should win the fight in both cases, but would we agree that the Hindy has a much better chance of making it interesting?

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Gentlemen  (making an assumption here, usually safe to do!)

It's not the ships, it's not the mechanics.  It's the players, and the players reactions to the monetization and rewards scheme of the game title.

The source of the high tier imbalance is  wargaming monetization of game play and this is not likely to change.  I truly wish this were different but online gaming pulls in for businesses and corporations many many many billions of dollars per year.  WG even gives back (guilt?  Maybe a little!) by donations to charities, museums, historical preservation projects, and education.    The game is ok, and ' fun if mighty frustrating some days.

Yesterday was a particularly bad day for me, and a case in point. Win rate for the day went right in the toilet and stayed there.  I got tossed into matches on sides with players just don't..  don't what you say? Don't everything.  Don't support.  Don't shoot.  Don't think.  Don't move.  Don't attack.  I'm a decent DD player but I can't save a match in that situation.  I'll try but I am destined to fail.  If I gave a damn about my stats I would have shut down the game and simply not played, but I'm not that kind of player.   By the end of the day I had lost well over half a million silver.  I wonder what I'm going to have to sell off to be able to pick up Kitakaze when it likely appears next week or the week after?  Currently down to just a little over 15 mil silver.. I had 18m beginning of this week.   I'm going to need about 30 mil to purchase and set up the ship. I'll likely be selling Akizuki, but what ya wanna bet that Akizuki will get discounted and put on sale along with all other lower tier IJN DD's and so the amount of silver I would get for selling the ship back also gets reduced.   When ever a line has been expanded in the past there have always been a week of discounts 

  Am I feeling a little cheesed right now? Oh yea, definitely a little cheesed... burnt cheese,  flaming cheese, and carbonized cheese.  

The player your dealing with have little motivation to improve their game play.  You see it on the forums constantly post about this is OP, that OP, this is under powered, that's underpowered.  After 2 years plus of playing this game my brain goes    "Oh so you don't know what your doing or how to use what you have and you want WG to hand you a gimmie instead of getting off your lazy fundament and figuring what your doing wrong!"  ............... It's very nearly a reflex at this point.  I often dig in and try to advise and help.  It often is not help to the OP of such posts, but someone else reading may go  "oh yea, cool, thanks dude!"  works for me.

Same here.  This is not going to get fixed any time soon, the whole system is set up to provide income for WG.  They may at some point say to them selves "we can get by with making a little less money and having a much more "fair" game.   I like WG.  They're really quite straightforward with their customers, us.  They do as a whole respect the rather lively intelligence of most of the player base, most of the time.  But they're here to make money first as a business.  Game dev teams are not there to make money..they're there to spend money to make a product to sell.  A fair and balance MM can be made, but that is not the dev teams call.  That call is made by the front office and accounting because it is deeply tied into the games monetization formula.

I hope this clarifies the whats and wherefore of what your seeing.  I'm not absolutely correct, but I have put thought into this and I have run a game store.  It's not quite the same, but you get an entirely different viewpoint from the other side of the cash register.  This subject is one I have personal professional knowledge of.    Once you get under the hood, or behind the curtain it's no different in any other game title.  It's a commercial endeavor and that means NOT free, monetization included and effecting game play. 

Don't expect any changes.

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