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Sabot_100

Is Fubuki THAT much worse than Shimome?

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Notice on the ship stats page (https://na.wows-numbers.com/ship/4183701200,Fubuki/) that Shinonome is near the top of the list while Fubuki is at the bottom. Is there that big a difference in the ships or is it due to the quality of players playing them? Shinonome was an earned ship so might have a more elite playerbase. Shinonome has been around a while so should be settled into its natural place in the rankings (until new nerfs or buffs occur or a new line is introduced). All of the stats except plane kills favor Shinonome.

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fubuki was nerfed countless times

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It's the quality of players.

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I think you're spot on. Shinonome is being played by more experienced/skilled players. If you look at LWM's review, Fubuki is better in every category except guns:

  • The Fubuki is better armoured (16mm bow vs 12mm)
  • The Shinonome has a larger main battery (4 guns vs 6)
  • The Fubuki reloads faster (8s vs 9s)
  • The Fubuki is longer ranged (10.0km vs 9.0km)
  • The Fubuki has better torpedoes (16,267 damage, 59 knots, 10km range, 1.5km detection vs 14,600 damage, 63 knots, 8km range, 1.6km detection)
  • The Fubuki has better AA DPS (19 vs 4)
  • The Fubuki has better Rudder Shift Time (2.5s vs 3.2s)

I haven't gotten around to finishing the Shinonome campaign so I can't comment on how she plays. I do have 180 games/53% WP before the split and 54 games/59% WP after the split in the Fubuki so she's worked for me.
 

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shinome is an...interesting ship, I wouldn't say she's bad just comes with a lot of drawbacks. 

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Back when Ranked was T6, Fubuki was a mainstay amongst DDs.  You'd see the rare Shinonome, but there really wasn't much reason to choose the latter over the former if you had any clue.

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Shinonome may not be bad, but she's not very good either.  Now if she had 10km torps like the Fubuki, that would be a wonderful buff.   :cap_like:

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42 minutes ago, Devildog23 said:
  • The Fubuki is better armoured (16mm bow vs 12mm)
  • The Shinonome has a larger main battery (4 guns vs 6)
  • The Fubuki reloads faster (8s vs 9s)
  • The Fubuki is longer ranged (10.0km vs 9.0km)
  • The Fubuki has better torpedoes (16,267 damage, 59 knots, 10km range, 1.5km detection vs 14,600 damage, 63 knots, 8km range, 1.6km detection)
  • The Fubuki has better AA DPS (19 vs 4)
  • The Fubuki has better Rudder Shift Time (2.5s vs 3.2s)

Thought I must be missing something in the stats since the results gap is so large while the physical stats are similar or favor Fubuki. I guess you would also have to factor in a number of those games are played in "A hull" Fubuki's with low rank captains and newbie players.  Still one ship is top (except for that T61 newcomer)  and the other the bottom? Fubuki needs some love from WG.

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The Shinonome has the advantage of being a premium ship and can take captains from elsewhere.  You could use it to train a less skilled captain.  Or you would run your favorite 19 point IJN DD captain for optimal performance.  I suspect that the Shinonome does so well in the stats because a) it is probably being run by many skilled IJN DD players and b) these skilled IJN DD players are probably using some very highly skilled IJN DD captains.

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2 hours ago, MajorRenegade said:

fubuki was nerfed countless times

Remember when the Fubuki was actually decent when it was a Tier 8 lol.

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36 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Thought I must be missing something in the stats since the results gap is so large while the physical stats are similar or favor Fubuki. I guess you would also have to factor in a number of those games are played in "A hull" Fubuki's with low rank captains and newbie players.  Still one ship is top (except for that T61 newcomer)  and the other the bottom? Fubuki needs some love from WG.

There are a couple things that are slightly overlooked. Yes, part of it is of course players and the fact they can pull down a 19 point shino captain no issue. The extra fire power helps, even with a 1 second slower reload, you have more firepower in a running gun battle than anything else at that tier, hell, our rear firepower alone equals the full broadside of most, if not all tier 6 DD's. Meaning you can fire while dropping smoke to retreat at full speed and stay hidden where as for similar firepower per salvo others would have to be broadside. Even with higher RoF American and other DD's have single barrel guns forward and therefore have to rely on that RoF and being accurate to even match, or turn full broadside to better cover the area, but make a bigger target for you. 

The Shino actually has a slight advantage in torp reload of a couple seconds less as well, Think mines down around 65 seconds to unleash a 9 torp spread. And while she lacks the range (roughly the same amount and speed increase as if you had taken torp acceleration) of Fubuki's, her speed and spotted range on torps actually gives slightly less reaction time to them. Someone willing to play on the edge and take torp accel with it, limiting them to a .3 km stealth fire range on a parallel target, would gain nearly a second less reaction time against their torps, spotted sooner than but being just as fast as Fujin/Kami clones torps, that deal similar damage with a 7 km range in 3x2 tubes (With Shino as I recall having come out AFTER the massive nerfs to IJN torps).

 

Just went in-game, Shino and Fubuki actually have the exact same armour, least main body and superstructure, of 16 and 10 mm respectively. Which, even IF Shino had only 12 mm armour on the bow, lets be real for a second - armour can be a double edged sword. And in this case, less could actually be better because odds are, other DD's and cruisers are going to fire HE at you as is, which, 16 mm of armour won't stop 127 mm HE rounds that pen 21.15 mm of armour, let alone 152's, and is never going to stop a BB round. And even if it increases the chance of an AP pen bow on to a AP firing DD (not sure 16 is enough to stop a cruiser round), they lower armour means more chance of an over pen, meaning taking 10% of damage in stead of 33%. It has a slight edge in fire rate for it's fewer guns, and sure, it has more range, on a ship that's thing is still stealth and torps. It has 2 km in range on it's torps, with a bit more damage, but slower torps that have a slight increase in time to react to them, and really, how many DD's really fire at max range of 10 km anyway? Rudder shift yeah, clear advantage other than easier to throw guns off while maneuvering. And then of course yes, it has less AA but again, lets be real here - Fubuki's AA if active gets it spotted sooner if they have AFT for more gun range (3.6 km firing range, can get down to 3.4 from the air), and circling planes of the same tier even if you get to 40 DPS against them - that's about a 3% chance to down a plane. For some more perspective on that, the tailgunners on the tier 6 Ryujo can just about match this ships AA output, and most CV players will tell you it's basically negligible, hell, a 10 point captain on Ryujo with expert rear gunner and the needed AS skill actually surpasses the maximum AA of Fubuki. Or in other words, it's at best a token defense and near useless.

 

Most of Fubuki's "advantages" actually mean very little because they aren't much of an advantage, or really are a pointless one. Slightly faster rate of fire and better range on fewer guns on a ship meant to be a stealth torp ship? Same armour far as I can tell. More range on torps but for various reasons people get closer anyway. More AA but still an insignificant amount of it. .7 second faster rudder shift that can throw off the guns as well. Not to mention if it's really that bad you can put a rudder shift upgrade on Shino to get it down to 2.6. 

Combine that with better players on Shino - that's the difference. It's a torp boat with slightly better torps at the cost of range and more firepower again, really only at the cost of range. It matches in stealth and armour, same speed and turning circle just a slightly slower rudder shift, and sure, less AA but Fubuki's is near useless anyway. Now toss in a high tier captain and someone that had the skills or luck to beat the campaign, it's really in many ways a slightly better ship than Fubuki, being given to better captains. 

At least, as Obi-Wan would say - "From a certain point of view".

  • Cool 2

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2 hours ago, Devildog23 said:
  • The Fubuki has better AA DPS (19 vs 4)

At these values, I'm not sure this stat adds anything to the list.

Another thing to factor in, OP, is that to get Fubuki a player only needs to advance to T6.  In order to get Shinonme, a player must at least have one T8 ship.  I know, you can buy several with money, but we all know that's not the same as climbing the tech tree to get there.

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Might be me but I really didn't like the shinome the first time I took her out, 19 point Captain....just underwelmed me...would take the Fubuki every time, well the one I remember that is

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2 hours ago, DreadRaybo said:

Shinonome may not be bad, but she's not very good either.  Now if she had 10km torps like the Fubuki, that would be a wonderful buff.   :cap_like:

All I know is driving Fubuki (post split, didn’t get it before then,) is like driving trough mud; slow in all respect of maneuverability, with turret rotation to match. Shino doesn’t feel anything like that, and I enjoy using it more than I ever have Fubuki.

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I think many of the better players of IJN DDs might also be playing ships other than Fubuki. The drop to tier 6 was a hard slap to the face of quite a few of us that had her before the changes. Tier 8 Fubuki used to be my favorite DD in the game (A position now jointly held by Akizuki, Harekaze and gunboat rigged Yugumo and Shimakaze) and I ran it as a hybrid gunboat (of course I also used to play exclusively random battles and that changed eventually as well). My single biggest gripe with Fubuki at tier 6 is that they force us to use the old C hull that nobody with half a brain used back when she was tier 8, that extra turret means a lot to some of us. If I could have the third turret back, I'd play Fubuki again rather than let it sit as a dock decoration. I am one of the crazies that does go out gunboating with IJN DDs and I can be darn good at it too. The loss of that turret took away a third of my damage per salvo, and that means a lot to a ship with that low of a rate of fire. I still say WG could make good money selling a clone of the old tier 8 Fubuki as a tier 8 premium, so long as they use the old B hull and not the lousy C hull.

Edited by CaptHarlock_222

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I actually think Fubuki is the better ship.

10km 3x3 torps with pretty fast reload is devastating for a T6 DD.

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14 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Notice on the ship stats page (https://na.wows-numbers.com/ship/4183701200,Fubuki/) that Shinonome is near the top of the list while Fubuki is at the bottom. Is there that big a difference in the ships or is it due to the quality of players playing them? Shinonome was an earned ship so might have a more elite playerbase. Shinonome has been around a while so should be settled into its natural place in the rankings (until new nerfs or buffs occur or a new line is introduced). All of the stats except plane kills favor Shinonome.

Not to sound rude ^^^^ I totally disagree with your analogy. I am close to certain you're reading/misunderstanding/misinterpreting the stats given. 

Here I'll try to give you my honest opinion regarding the ship.

  1. IF you notice on the WR tab, its orginized to the highest WR first to what you observed Fubuki last.
  2. if you click on any other tab, these ships are reorganized

That said, we can come to a relative comparison of other DDs in the tier. One thing I can concur and have to be careful is, you can;t really compare a lemon with and orange but they're both citrus, a fruit, they grown on trees, both are eatable, both can be cooked, BUT they're totally different.

Because the Shinanome has a lower battle count then the FUBUKI, The Shinonome is more then a gun ship then the Fubuki, these two ships are really can;t be compared with each other. That would be a grave injustice trying to compare these two ships side by side. You can compare

  1. Fubuki and the Mutsuki (two torp DDs with over 1 mill battles played)
  2. Shinonome, Gallant, Aigle, all gun ship with the same gun trait and battles played with a minimal variant
  3. Gnevny and the Anshan
  4. Maybe the Ognevoi and the Ernest, the must variation in battle when its that close to small number and not the opposite. The bigger and higher the number the less variation to the final conclusion compared to say close to small number pool.

After all that information and looking at the stats for the Mutsuki and the FUbuki, taking the account the deviation of the variant battle pool adv that the Mutsukie has, The Fubuki is the overall good torp ship with meh guns int the tier. I hope this helped GL and HF.

 

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On 7/20/2018 at 2:10 PM, Crucis said:

The Shinonome has the advantage of being a premium ship and can take captains from elsewhere.  You could use it to train a less skilled captain.  Or you would run your favorite 19 point IJN DD captain for optimal performance.  I suspect that the Shinonome does so well in the stats because a) it is probably being run by many skilled IJN DD players and b) these skilled IJN DD players are probably using some very highly skilled IJN DD captains.

It is a fun ship to jump into to grab a handful of Elite XP and some credits. Tier 6 premium seems to pay well most of the time. 

She is a challenging ship to play. There is not a lot of stealth torping zone, but she can be fun. She can be frustrating. 

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On 7/23/2018 at 3:56 PM, Avrova1904 said:

Sorry for this noob question: how can I get Shinonome?

In the Honorable Service campaign. 

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Fubuki and Shinome are two of the most fun ships I have tried. I don't remember Akatsuki.  Unlike the tier 6 DDs, I have not gone back to Akatsuki.  Part of the reason I admit, is the the lucrative tier 6 economy.

I would really enjoy your thoughts on the tier 6 DDs. 

Edited by Ensign_Pulver_2016

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