Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Sweetsie

Manual Secondary's, worth it or a farce?

84 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
2,567 posts
12,434 battles

For well over a year the explanation of this 4 point talent has bothered me. -60% dispersion... from what? with no base starting point there is nothing to measure.. So, I am grinding the Alsace and been watching the results....for funzies I looked at a couple of games and while not scientific its interesting.

Without manual secondary's  I had a game with 551 shells fired, 34 hits for practically no damage. Pretty ineffective but no talents used.---most of these were long distance , not in your face brawling.

With manual secondary's  a game I just played had 427 shells fired and 182 landed... the overall damage of these 182 came to 2,640 total damage. 1000 of this damage was on a dd for 5 of my hits. That leaves basically 177 hits for 1,600 damage. or 9 damage per hit.---most of these were at a range of 6k or less AND on BB's. (4 fires were set for an additional 11k, then factor 4/182 a 2% fire chance.)

Knowing you do more damage to DD's than BB's... but usually that is fleeting as the dd runs away or smokes up ...It lives me with the feeling of, I am all dressed up and no one to target. And if my goal is to set fires, its harder to so with all the HE spam from cruisers

 

So, just pondering this...if you go secondary's build, many times you will use modules, 4 to 8 possibly even 11 captains points to get this wonderfully  strong 11.3k range...… But the cost to do so vs the results.....really seems bad compared to a tank build or other builds...Thinking the fun factor of watching them overinflates the result you get from them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
105
[-WTP-]
[-WTP-]
Members
500 posts
5,594 battles

This has been perplexing me as well. I feel like secondary builds are like AA in that for every game they actually pay off and feel absolutely awesome there's 3 games they don't really get to do anything. I'm in the process of leveling another German captain for tanking so I can keep a secondary build captain too. I'm leveling the French captain for BBs but with the AR and EM skill you can't take 3x4 skills which limit my options for a full IFHE secondary build. Not sure it's going to be worth the points for just AFT and manual secondaries. Giving up concealment when you covered in 32mm of armor is an unpleasant proposition, but alas I have one high point French BB captain and want to get it right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,157 posts
6,936 battles

Whenever i get around to grinding the FR BB line, i was planning on doing a hybrid build.  Mainly tank build but with Manual secondaries for some extra flavor/fun.  I wont bother with AFT or BFT.  I just want the extra accuracy. 

 

anyways, as for manual secondaries.  Idk if it is worth 4 points.  Personally, i think secondaries should always fire on both sides, and any target you control click is what they will focus(already do) and GAIN the accuracy buff.  If you don't control click, they don't get the accuracy buff from the skill.  Kinda like AA.  You click to focus a squad but that does not mean other planes aren't being shot down. 

 

Right now i feel like tank builds are hands down the best for any BB line.   Secondary builds are fun, but you will get far better results with tank builds than those which is unfortunate.  Overall the captain skill tree needs to be reworked.   Some skills are over priced, some can just be removed, and others just baked in.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
106
[SOB]
Members
254 posts
3,418 battles

IMO its one of those things you only need when you need it. Ive got 2 Cpts with the skill (Yammy & Bismark) & honestly I am not sure if its worth it. Its hard to definitively say that its good. OTOH last week I had a gearing pop up 6km from my Yammy. He was at about 50% health & my main guns were pointed the other way. I targeted him with the secondaries & he melted in about 10sec from the fire. I couldnt say if RNGesus was on my side or if they really are that good. I can say on that day I was very glad I had it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
433 posts
5 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

Whenever i get around to grinding the FR BB line, i was planning on doing a hybrid build.  Mainly tank build but with Manual secondaries for some extra flavor/fun.  I wont bother with AFT or BFT.  I just want the extra accuracy. 

 

anyways, as for manual secondaries.  Idk if it is worth 4 points.  Personally, i think secondaries should always fire on both sides, and any target you control click is what they will focus(already do) and GAIN the accuracy buff.  If you don't control click, they don't get the accuracy buff from the skill.  Kinda like AA.  You click to focus a squad but that does not mean other planes aren't being shot down. 

 

Right now i feel like tank builds are hands down the best for any BB line.   Secondary builds are fun, but you will get far better results with tank builds than those which is unfortunate.  Overall the captain skill tree needs to be reworked.   Some skills are over priced, some can just be removed, and others just baked in.  

It's already been reworked but I agree that secondaries should be buffed outside manual secondaries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,157 posts
6,936 battles
1 minute ago, MrSparkle said:

It's already been reworked but I agree that secondaries should be buffed outside manual secondaries.

the last major rework was what, january of 2017 or so?  there have been a few tweaks here and there, but nothing major involving the entire tree. 

 

WG said in one of their interviews that captain skills among other things would be looked at when the CV rework is done.   Hopefully sooner rather than later. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,012
[ARGSY]
Members
6,340 posts
4,264 battles

My problem with Manual Secondaries is that if you do not assign them (e.g. forget in the heat of battle), they will not fire AT ALL. In addition, they will ONLY fire at the ONE ship you target.

If you have the secondaries on automatic, they will fire on BOTH sides of the ship at the nearest enemy within range. So you can get on with torpedobeats and getting your main guns on target.

To me, the utility of having them engage everywhere beats the benefits of lower dispersion. I know for some ships (certain German BB's, Massachusetts), the balance shifts significantly.

I guess in the end it's down to the individual to create the opportunities that benefit from it and avoid the situations where it disadvantages you.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
433 posts
3 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

the last major rework was what, january of 2017 or so?  there have been a few tweaks here and there, but nothing major involving the entire tree. 

 

WG said in one of their interviews that captain skills among other things would be looked at when the CV rework is done.   Hopefully sooner rather than later. 

They love the idea of manual secondaries (and manual AA) though. They like to make secondary gunners drunken idiots without the skill because "balance", so any rework will not see a change to it.

How about letting us manually fire our secondaries? We can switch between shell types and guns/torpedoes, so why not also let us switch between main and secondary guns? Fix their horrible range and dispersion and let us fire them as we see fit. That's what I want with a rework, and what I also know will never happen because "this is an arcade game" and "this isn't a simulator" and blah blah blah.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,567 posts
12,434 battles
15 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

My problem with Manual Secondaries is that if you do not assign them (e.g. forget in the heat of battle), they will not fire AT ALL. In addition, they will ONLY fire at the ONE ship you target.

If you have the secondaries on automatic, they will fire on BOTH sides of the ship at the nearest enemy within range. So you can get on with torpedobeats and getting your main guns on target.

To me, the utility of having them engage everywhere beats the benefits of lower dispersion. I know for some ships (certain German BB's, Massachusetts), the balance shifts significantly.

I guess in the end it's down to the individual to create the opportunities that benefit from it and avoid the situations where it disadvantages you.

agree with everything you say and one more thing to add.. I also believe having them prompts a player to unnecessarily  puts his ship in danger as there is a feeling of a need to use them since you have them... I know I do it all the time.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,550
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,420 posts
5,831 battles
59 minutes ago, Sweetsie said:

For well over a year the explanation of this 4 point talent has bothered me. -60% dispersion... from what? with no base starting point there is nothing to measure.. So, I am grinding the Alsace and been watching the results....for funzies I looked at a couple of games and while not scientific its interesting.

Without manual secondary's  I had a game with 551 shells fired, 34 hits for practically no damage. Pretty ineffective but no talents used.---most of these were long distance , not in your face brawling.

With manual secondary's  a game I just played had 427 shells fired and 182 landed... the overall damage of these 182 came to 2,640 total damage. 1000 of this damage was on a dd for 5 of my hits. That leaves basically 177 hits for 1,600 damage. or 9 damage per hit.---most of these were at a range of 6k or less AND on BB's. (4 fires were set for an additional 11k, then factor 4/182 a 2% fire chance.)

Knowing you do more damage to DD's than BB's... but usually that is fleeting as the dd runs away or smokes up ...It lives me with the feeling of, I am all dressed up and no one to target. And if my goal is to set fires, its harder to so with all the HE spam from cruisers

 

So, just pondering this...if you go secondary's build, many times you will use modules, 4 to 8 possibly even 11 captains points to get this wonderfully  strong 11.3k range...… But the cost to do so vs the results.....really seems bad compared to a tank build or other builds...Thinking the fun factor of watching them overinflates the result you get from them.

Granted brother, I am by no means an expert but for the Alsace I think you need to drop concealment and take IFHE for the secondary build to really shine.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,550
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,420 posts
5,831 battles
24 minutes ago, MrSparkle said:

They love the idea of manual secondaries (and manual AA) though. They like to make secondary gunners drunken idiots without the skill because "balance", so any rework will not see a change to it.

How about letting us manually fire our secondaries? We can switch between shell types and guns/torpedoes, so why not also let us switch between main and secondary guns? Fix their horrible range and dispersion and let us fire them as we see fit. That's what I want with a rework, and what I also know will never happen because "this is an arcade game" and "this isn't a simulator" and blah blah blah.

What is especially frustrating is that in the tablet version of this game World of Warships blitz you can fire the secondaries on battleships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
147
Members
711 posts

I find ~9km (+-0.6km) to be best, if you go over that it normally means your trading too much to get it, with ships that are viable for secondary builds that is, given taking the skill that buffs secondary range, AA range (and any mains under 139mm) by +20%, is never a bad thing per se given CV matches in BB's, and on viable secondary build ships that's normally what puts you at ~9km (+-0.6km) with a couple of exceptions like Massachusetts or Lyon which need the secondary range module too.

 

Keep in mind vs. other BB’s your best off not closing to any less than 7km, as then most of your secondary’s will be hitting belt armour, if you keep >7km then more of them will be hitting superstructure etc where they are much more effective.

 

Some cruisers also follow the above unless you take IFHE, but then that costs you in fire chance, and IFHE doesn’t help with DD in the main or with most BB’s.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,567 posts
12,434 battles
16 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

Granted brother, I am by no means an expert but for the Alsace I think you need to drop concealment and take IFHE for the secondary build to really shine.

ya, I posted this quote below, maybe not maxing out the range and chewing up 12 points to do so with IFHE is the key...more powerful/more hits at closer distances as well...theoretically. 

5 minutes ago, b101uk said:

I find ~9km (+-0.6km) to be best, if you go over that it normally means your trading too much to get it, with ships that are viable for secondary builds that is, given taking the skill that buffs secondary range, AA range (and any mains under 139mm) by +20%, is never a bad thing per se given CV matches in BB's, and on viable secondary build ships that's normally what puts you at ~9km (+-0.6km) with a couple of exceptions like Massachusetts or Lyon which need the secondary range module too.

 

Keep in mind vs. other BB’s your best off not closing to any less than 7km, as then most of your secondary’s will be hitting belt armour, if you keep >7km then more of them will be hitting superstructure etc where they are much more effective.

 

Some cruisers also follow the above unless you take IFHE, but then that costs you in fire chance, and IFHE doesn’t help with DD in the main or with most BB’s.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,273
[RKLES]
Members
7,213 posts
9,006 battles

I can certainly vouch for the fact full secondary build Bismarck with Manual Secondaries is an absolute beast and well worth it if not absolutely essential. But as some have said in various threads that while Bismarck is 100% totally awesome with Manual Secondaries and Secondaries Build, other ships not always. So as the old saying goes look before you leap and find out which ships will benefit from Manual Secondaries and which ones will not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
245
[BBP]
Members
335 posts
4,344 battles
1 hour ago, Sweetsie said:

For well over a year the explanation of this 4 point talent has bothered me. -60% dispersion... from what? with no base starting point there is nothing to measure.. So, I am grinding the Alsace and been watching the results....for funzies I looked at a couple of games and while not scientific its interesting.

Without manual secondary's  I had a game with 551 shells fired, 34 hits for practically no damage. Pretty ineffective but no talents used.---most of these were long distance , not in your face brawling.

With manual secondary's  a game I just played had 427 shells fired and 182 landed... the overall damage of these 182 came to 2,640 total damage. 1000 of this damage was on a dd for 5 of my hits. That leaves basically 177 hits for 1,600 damage. or 9 damage per hit.---most of these were at a range of 6k or less AND on BB's. (4 fires were set for an additional 11k, then factor 4/182 a 2% fire chance.)

Knowing you do more damage to DD's than BB's... but usually that is fleeting as the dd runs away or smokes up ...It lives me with the feeling of, I am all dressed up and no one to target. And if my goal is to set fires, its harder to so with all the HE spam from cruisers

 

So, just pondering this...if you go secondary's build, many times you will use modules, 4 to 8 possibly even 11 captains points to get this wonderfully  strong 11.3k range...… But the cost to do so vs the results.....really seems bad compared to a tank build or other builds...Thinking the fun factor of watching them overinflates the result you get from them.

This sounds like Alsace without IFHE.  

That said more hits = more fire chances too.  

Manual secondaries on my higher tier German BBs is pretty devastating.  Focus on a target and watch them melt.  

For Alsace IFHE is required for the secondary hits to be effective on most targets.

Edited by _MiDKnighTx_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,567 posts
12,434 battles
2 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I can certainly vouch for the fact full secondary build Bismarck with Manual Secondaries is an absolute beast and well worth it if not absolutely essential. But as some have said in various threads that while Bismarck is 100% totally awesome with Manual Secondaries and Secondaries Build, other ships not always. So as the old saying goes look before you leap and find out which ships will benefit from Manual Secondaries and which ones will not.

very true. maybe one of our engineers will whip up a defining spreadsheet in the time it takes me to make a bologna sammich to teach us have nots on the best ships to uses them on and why.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,567 posts
12,434 battles
1 minute ago, _MiDKnighTx_ said:

This sounds like Alsace without IFHE.  

That said more hits = more fire chances too.  

Manual secondaries on my higher tier German BBs is pretty devastating.  Focus on a target and watch them melt.  

For Alsace IFHE is required for the secondary hits to be effective on most targets.

Just hate to blow another 190k captains xp to respect again. leaning towards a shorter range but using IFHE this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,550
[OPGS]
Beta Testers
3,420 posts
5,831 battles
11 minutes ago, Sweetsie said:

very true. maybe one of our engineers will whip up a defining spreadsheet in the time it takes me to make a bologna sammich to teach us have nots on the best ships to uses them on and why.

LOL We need someone to science the crap out of this topic!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
245
[SF-3]
Members
1,536 posts
8,127 battles

I like secondary builds for fun, however, I know that in higher tiers they are mostly just a gimmick. Sure you can get the occasional CQE but in the end surviving longer and making better use of your main battery will pay out more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
133
[TFLT]
[TFLT]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
657 posts
7,985 battles

Secondary builds are very ship dependent.  I find the builds for Tirpitz and Massachusetts big fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
66
[RCB4]
[RCB4]
Beta Testers
470 posts

ive gotten the massachusets and i dont use manual secondary because if there is a ship on both flank ill fire at both

and it was my understanding that if manual select one of the 2 ships i will only fire on the selected target

isnt it so? and if it is so doesnt that kinda lowers the value of manual secondary?

Edited by iamplaya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,567 posts
12,434 battles
8 minutes ago, Kevs02Accord said:

I like secondary builds for fun, however, I know that in higher tiers they are mostly just a gimmick. Sure you can get the occasional CQE but in the end surviving longer and making better use of your main battery will pay out more.

agree with this. just having them and wanting to use them is putting me in harms way to often and to soon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,567 posts
12,434 battles
1 minute ago, iamplaya said:

ive gotten the massachusets and i dont use manual secondary because if there is a ship on both flank ill fire at both

and it was my understanding that if manual select one of the 2 ships i will only fire on the selected target

isnt it so? and if it is so doesnt that kinda lowers the value of manual secondary?

yes. hypothetically if there was another ship on the other side of you at 4k, your guns won't fire at him unless selected. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,273
[RKLES]
Members
7,213 posts
9,006 battles
7 minutes ago, Kevs02Accord said:

I like secondary builds for fun, however, I know that in higher tiers they are mostly just a gimmick. Sure you can get the occasional CQE but in the end surviving longer and making better use of your main battery will pay out more.

That depends, like I upgraded my Yamato Secondaries a fair amount to help give DDs something to think about and to also make air attacks a little more costly for them as well. But did not go full secondary or full AA build, just more of a general purpose BB build.

Ironically the way some DDs are getting around the Radar frenzy has been to use longer range torpedoes which means they will not always come into secondary range, but still useful to make some provipn for Secondaries none the less for when they do attempt closer range Torpedo fun on your high tier BB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,567 posts
12,434 battles

What if you had IFHE but not manual...or have I already hit the weekend rum?

 

Edit, this seems so dumb, I have to try it.

Edited by Sweetsie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×