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Aeries1

T7+ French Captain Skills

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Just started the French cruiser line and am loving it so far.  Emile is a great ship and am about through her in no time. 

Right now I have a 10 pointer running IFHE, but that will get respecced once I get to Alg.

What have you guys had success running on the CAs?

The AA is pretty horrible on these cruisers, at least in the long range department where it counts, so not going to be speccing there.

My thoughts moving up.

PT - AR - DE - CE as a base.

Run premium consumables so unlike a lot of recommendations see no need for SI.  Running speed module there isn't enough time in the game for 4 speed boosts and I have only on a handful of occasions needed or wanted 4 heals in all my T9+ cruiser games.  Only so much damage can be healed back.

Think of trying a little unconventional for the last 9.

11th - EL

15th - RL - For late game chasing down DDs.

17th - EM - By the time I get to St. Lous will want it to offset the MBM3 traverse penalty.

19th - JoaT - Meh not much other good T2s, Maybe LS, not sure how weak this lines rudder/engine are.

Toyed with the idea of IFHE instead of RL on HIV.  Would allow her to pen the 50mm decks of Moskva and most of the T10 BBs that have 50mm middle decks.  Anyone tried this one on Henry? 

Well that's my plan.  What are you running or had success with?

 

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8 minutes ago, awiggin said:

If you aren't running LS on a french cruiser, you're begging to die.:Smile_teethhappy:

Haven't really noticed much, but still on Emile so obviously can't judge the whole line.  Are the rudders/engines really that weak where it is needed?  Will have to pay attention to the icons at the end of the match a little more closely.

If they are that weak then JoaT will be gone, and LS instead.

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11 minutes ago, awiggin said:

If you aren't running LS on a french cruiser, you're begging to die.:Smile_teethhappy:

Once you get up to the upper tiers with Henri IV and Saint Louis, your rudder and engine become much more durable.

As for radio location on French cruisers, I'd say that 4 points is easily spent elsewhere.  That's too much of a commitment of commander skills for a trait that is situational at best, especially considering DDs tendency to die early plus the long range play style of these cruisers until late in matches.  

Here is the build that I currently run on Henri IV, and you will notice no IFHE due to the large caliber of her guns:

Capture.JPG

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4 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Once you get up to the upper tiers with Henri IV and Saint Louis, your rudder and engine become much more durable.

As for radio location on French cruisers, I'd say that 4 points is easily spent elsewhere.  That's too much of a commitment of commander skills for a trait that is situational at best, especially considering DDs tendency to die early plus the long range play style of these cruisers until late in matches.  

Here is the build that I currently run on Henri IV, and you will notice no IFHE due to the large caliber of her guns:

 

He did say 7+ You can't play the Martel without LS, unless you like losing engine/steering every other hit...:Smile_teethhappy:

11 minutes ago, Aeries1 said:

Haven't really noticed much, but still on Emile so obviously can't judge the whole line.  Are the rudders/engines really that weak where it is needed?  Will have to pay attention to the icons at the end of the match a little more closely.

If they are that weak then JoaT will be gone, and LS instead.

You'll start noticing, engine/steering gear get blasted regularly. I can't speak for the 9-10 as I don't have them, but up to Martel, it's almost a requirement.

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3 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Once you get up to the upper tiers with Henri IV and Saint Louis, your rudder and engine become much more durable.

As for radio location on French cruisers, I'd say that 4 points is easily spent elsewhere.  That's too much of a commitment of commander skills for a trait that is situational at best, especially considering DDs tendency to die early plus the long range play style of these cruisers until late in matches.  

Here is the build that I currently run on Henri IV, and you will notice no IFHE due to the large caliber of her guns:

Capture.JPG

Yeah the RL is very situational.  I literally have it on zero ships, but late game I could see a use.  The only cruisers capable of running down DDs could prove useful.  It's niche and out of the box, but may try it.

Have you tried IFHE on your Henry?  240 mm/6 + 30% = 52 mm.  Would give her Hindy pen properties with much better fire chance and HE shell damage.  

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1 minute ago, awiggin said:

He did say 7+ You can't play the Martel without LS, unless you like losing engine/steering every other hit...:Smile_teethhappy:

You'll start noticing, engine/steering gear get blasted regularly. I can't speak for the 9-10 as I don't have them, but up to Martel, it's almost a requirement.

Good to know they are that weak on Alg and CM.  Wouldn't have planned for it otherwise.

Yeah planning 7+ here, don't care to respec out of skills once they are no longer needed.  Just like I will respec out of IFHE once I am done with La Gal.

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42 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Once you get up to the upper tiers with Henri IV and Saint Louis, your rudder and engine become much more durable.

As for radio location on French cruisers, I'd say that 4 points is easily spent elsewhere.  That's too much of a commitment of commander skills for a trait that is situational at best, especially considering DDs tendency to die early plus the long range play style of these cruisers until late in matches.  

Here is the build that I currently run on Henri IV, and you will notice no IFHE due to the large caliber of her guns:

Capture.JPG

Ran this t8-10. If you are losing steering and engine except late game in CM you are too close

Henry with speed boost is hilarious 

Edited by wstugamd

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1 hour ago, Aeries1 said:

Haven't really noticed much, but still on Emile so obviously can't judge the whole line.  Are the rudders/engines really that weak where it is needed?  Will have to pay attention to the icons at the end of the match a little more closely.

If they are that weak then JoaT will be gone, and LS instead.

The rudder is really bad but if you run double rudder shift modules (as you should) it takes 7 seconds for the rudder to repair so only DM and some light cruisers can even shoot again before its repaired. 

Also if you actually know what you are doing and are far enough away to not be getting shot from multiple sides (again as you should be) you will be able to turn in time so that your rudder is mostly neutral anyways when you are hit.  And you will be running away.  So losing your rudder basically becomes meaningless unless you have already made a massive mistake or are pushing late game.  The engine loss is no more common than any other cruiser.  BB citadel in the engine space or cruisers at closer range than you should let them are the only ways that is going out.

Edited by mrh308
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11 minutes ago, wstugamd said:

Ran this t8-10. If you are losing steering and engine except late game in CM you are too close

Henry with speed boost is hilarious 

I run Speedboost mod on most of my frenchies :P

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5 hours ago, Kingfishercritic said:

I run Speedboost mod on most of my frenchies :P

if you got one run it

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Both the Charles Martel and the St. Louis have paper rudders. Sneeze ANYWHERE on the back half of the ship, and it knocks out the rudder. It's ridiculous. 

The Henri fixes this. 

This isn't really a problem on the Algerie, either.

But, it's worth considering putting on Last Stand for those two, because the frequency of rudder hits, even with the Upgrade module installed, is stupidly large.

10 hours ago, mrh308 said:

The rudder is really bad but if you run double rudder shift modules (as you should) it takes 7 seconds for the rudder to repair so only DM and some light cruisers can even shoot again before its repaired. 

But you have to give up concealment for that double rudder shift. That's not optimal, to say the least.

 

10 hours ago, mrh308 said:

Also if you actually know what you are doing and are far enough away to not be getting shot from multiple sides (again as you should be) you will be able to turn in time so that your rudder is mostly neutral anyways when you are hit.  And you will be running away.  So losing your rudder basically becomes meaningless unless you have already made a massive mistake or are pushing late game.  The engine loss is no more common than any other cruiser.  BB citadel in the engine space or cruisers at closer range than you should let them are the only ways that is going out.

Which would be true if the French T8/9 didn't suffer rudder disablement with virtually EVERY hit to their rear half - you know, the part of the ship you've got pointed at the enemy most of the time, and the part that suffers the most hits?  I've had games where I've loss less than half my total HP, and had my rudder knocked out over a DOZEN times. 5" guns knock out your rudder.  All it takes is a scratch hit.

Being shot at from multiple sides isn't the problem when losing your rudder. It's being shot at by multiple people.  Even 10 seconds (the time it takes to repair your rudder then move it again) is easily time enough for a BB to line up a nice salvo and either delete you, or take half your health with 1 or 2 hits.

Personally, and it is a personal thing, I think Last Stand is a better price to pay on these ships than give up the Concealment Module.

 

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21 hours ago, Aeries1 said:

Yeah the RL is very situational.  I literally have it on zero ships, but late game I could see a use.  The only cruisers capable of running down DDs could prove useful.  It's niche and out of the box, but may try it.

Have you tried IFHE on your Henry?  240 mm/6 + 30% = 52 mm.  Would give her Hindy pen properties with much better fire chance and HE shell damage.  

I haven't felt the need to run IFHE, as I feel her gun performance is pretty good as is.  Considering Henri's playstyle as a long range HE spammer in the early stages of a match, penetration isn't much of an issue.  Once I'm able to push in and brawl at the later stages, her pen is more than adequate at less than 15km in those types of scenarios.

20 hours ago, wstugamd said:

Ran this t8-10. If you are losing steering and engine except late game in CM you are too close

Henry with speed boost is hilarious 

Even funner when you equip the special speed boost module.  You can basically run for over half the match on speed boost.

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9 hours ago, LAnybody said:

 

Personally, and it is a personal thing, I think Last Stand is a better price to pay on these ships than give up the Concealment Module.

 

Concealment module is completely useless (technically it gives the opponent slightly worse dispersion but that's it) if you are shooting all the time which is what you want to be doing especially when speed boost is up.  With the special speed boost module you are in speed boost the majority of the match, which means you are very difficult to impossible to hit from 15 km for the vast majority of players in the game.  You are not giving it up you are taking a better module and saving 2 commander skill points.

Edited by mrh308

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26 minutes ago, mrh308 said:

Concealment is completely useless (technically it gives the opponent slightly worse dispersion but that's it) if you are shooting all the time which is what you want to be doing especially when speed boost is up.  With the special speed boost module you are in speed boost the majority of the match, which means you are very difficult to impossible to hit from 15 km for the vast majority of players in the game.  You are not giving it up you are taking a better module and saving 2 commander skill points.

I run steering 2 and 3. I do take CE. Yes you fire a lot, but occasionally you need to go dark and run. CE is very useful. 

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Just now, wstugamd said:

I run steering 2 and 3. I do take CE. Yes you fire a lot, but occasionally you need to go dark and run. CE is very useful. 

Was talking about the module as was the post I quoted.

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Had a game in the Henri last night. Took a hit to the stern which knocked out my engine and it took a while for me to realize I wasn't going anywhere. Forgot I didn't have Last Stand on the higher tier ships. Fortunately my repair was up when I finally figured out the problem. It is true your rudder/engine is not as fragile as they are at the lower tiers BUT fast French CAs take a lot of hits to the stern (which the shooter thought were going to citadel you) and that increases your chances of a crippling hit .

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6 hours ago, mrh308 said:

Was talking about the module as was the post I quoted.

It's the same concept, captain skill or module. Stealth is vitally important as a cruiser, almost as much as a DD.

It's not really that hard to hit a cruiser-sized object, even for the average player, even at 15km+.  BBs do it regularly, and in a cruiser, single BB shell hits are a major threat. Stuff like an Iowa, Lyon, Republique, GKF, Montana, Yamato, or even Amagi all have the requisite range and low sigma/dispersion or high barrel count for all but the most potato player to be able to hit you about once every salvo at 18km. Conversely, if you're at such a range that BB hits really are difficult, your CA can't hit much either. Netting 1 or 2 hits per salvo against BB targets at max range really isn't contributing that much to the fight.

And yes, while Engine Boost means you hit 39 knots, you're still not Khaba.  Running in a straight line firing all the time is a recipe for getting citadeled by any BB within range.  If you turn regularly (like you should, even with Engine Boost) you're bleeding speed down to 32knots or less, and are back to being much easier to hit.   

Stealth is actually a really good idea here, because with Engine Boost, it allows you to Shoot and Scoot better than anyone else.  It gives you another 1.3km of buffer to run with - so you can shoot at things under 11km (and hit lots of stuff easily), then, when the big guns turn your way, you just stop firing and reposition.  Without the stealth module, either you have to be further out and lose accuracy, or run the risk of being hit while you run to your larger stealth range. Getting spotted as a cruiser in T7+ games is a deadly threat if you can't dictate the terms of the engagement, and stealth - more than speed - helps determine who dictates the engagement.

Max stealth also makes using your torpedoes far, far easier.

It's all a tradeoff.  I'm on the side that says stealth is more important than pure ruddershift, especially when I get most of rudder shift benefit another way (captain skills).   I think trading off EM for LS is a perfectly good one, since French cruisers have OK turret rotation and don't need superfast ones anyway, as they don't do close-in work.

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7 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

I haven't felt the need to run IFHE, as I feel her gun performance is pretty good as is.  Considering Henri's playstyle as a long range HE spammer in the early stages of a match, penetration isn't much of an issue.  Once I'm able to push in and brawl at the later stages, her pen is more than adequate at less than 15km in those types of scenarios.

That's good to know.  Wasn't sure if she gets many shatters or not.  Will probably not try a IFHE build then.  Besides I plan on slinging that big 240 AP as much as possible when I can.  Its penetration curves look great.  Capable of citadels against cruisers out to max range and BBs under 10km, if the graphs hold true that is.

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50 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

It's not really that hard to hit a cruiser-sized object, even for the average player, even at 15km+.  BBs do it regularly, and in a cruiser, single BB shell hits are a major threat. Stuff like an Iowa, Lyon, Republique, GKF, Montana, Yamato, or even Amagi all have the requisite range and low sigma/dispersion or high barrel count for all but the most potato player to be able to hit you about once every salvo at 18km. Conversely, if you're at such a range that BB hits really are difficult, your CA can't hit much either. Netting 1 or 2 hits per salvo against BB targets at max range really isn't contributing that much to the fight.

I assure you that BBs cannot hit you with both rudder shift modules and speed boost even if you turn after they fire.  I just played a Martel game where I was hit seven time total by BBs with 2 on my flank and both interested in firing at me.  About 3 of those were entirely my fault because I left island cover within 12 km at low speed.  I was still able to turn enough to avoid being citadeled.  Often they give up shooting you.  Sometimes when I know their reload is about up i start a turn and then when they fire I turn the other way.  Sometimes I just straighten out to full away from angled to shoot.  Its clear you don't use it, and that's fine.  Just know you are wrong about how effective it is.

 

I will even attach the replay if you would like to watch it and see how it works.

20180720_165102_PFSC108-Charles-Martel_47_Sleeping_Giant.wowsreplay

My build in the replay is PT, AR, SI, DE, CE

Modules:Main Armaments Mod 1, Engine boost, AA guns, Steering gears 2, steering gears 3

Something to remember is that speed boost is not about speed.  Its about maneuverability.  You turn faster, accelerate faster so each move you make is magnified.  Its not about going so fast they can't hit you.

Edited by mrh308

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1 hour ago, mrh308 said:

I assure you that BBs cannot hit you with both rudder shift modules and speed boost even if you turn after they fire.  I just played a Martel game where I was hit seven time total by BBs with 2 on my flank and both interested in firing at me.  About 3 of those were entirely my fault because I left island cover within 12 km at low speed.  I was still able to turn enough to avoid being citadeled.  Often they give up shooting you.  Sometimes when I know their reload is about up i start a turn and then when they fire I turn the other way.  Sometimes I just straighten out to full away from angled to shoot.  Its clear you don't use it, and that's fine.  Just know you are wrong about how effective it is.

 

I will even attach the replay if you would like to watch it and see how it works.

20180720_165102_PFSC108-Charles-Martel_47_Sleeping_Giant.wowsreplay

My build in the replay is PT, AR, SI, DE, CE

Modules:Main Armaments Mod 1, Engine boost, AA guns, Steering gears 2, steering gears 3

Something to remember is that speed boost is not about speed.  Its about maneuverability.  You turn faster, accelerate faster so each move you make is magnified.  Its not about going so fast they can't hit you.

Speed boost does NOT allow you to turn faster. You turn the same way you always do: same rudder shift, same turning radius. Engine boost does appear to help acceleration, but it doesn't appear to help any loss of speed in turns, nor does it affect deceleration.

Moreover, since we're only talking about the Rudder Shift vs Concealment here, both have the same advantage of Engine Boost, so that's irrelevant to the topic.

I can do exactly the same thing you're doing, without the extra rudder shift module, though it certainly isn't quite as easy.  And I can hit you regularly in a BB even with Rudder Shift, though it will reduce my total hits somewhat, it's not enough to prevent me from regularly scoring big hits.  I can't hit what I can't see, though.

Also, we're talking about averages, not the best performers.  On average, the mid-grade BB players don't have too much problems scoring hits on average cruiser drivers. That's what the game is built around. The French line is no exception.

Edited by LAnybody

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9 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

Speed boost does NOT allow you to turn faster. You turn the same way you always do: same rudder shift, same turning radius. Engine boost does appear to help acceleration, but it doesn't appear to help any loss of speed in turns, nor does it affect deceleration.

You have the same turning radius but you move through it faster.  From LWM reveiw of Gascogne:

Rate of Turn
Up until the addition of Richelieu and Gascogne, the South Dakota sisters were unchallenged with their agility at tier VIII.  While some of the contenders remain works in progress as of this article's publishing, it's unlikely that we will see a significant change to the combatants.  Gascogne does not best Alabama or Massachusetts for her rate of turn at full speed.  Instead she all but matches both sisters which is a feat unto itself.  This is all grace of her phenomenal top speed which allows her to power through her turning circle and come about quickly on demand.  Under the effects of Engine Boost, she overtakes them both, squeaking out primacy.  

14 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

I can do exactly the same thing you're doing, without the extra rudder shift module, though it certainly isn't quite as easy.  And I can hit you regularly in a BB, though it will reduce my total hits somewhat, it's not enough to prevent me from regularly scoring big hits.

Also, we're talking about averages, not the best performers.  On average, the mid-grade BB players don't have too much problems scoring hits on average cruiser drivers. That's what the game is built around. The French line is no exception.

You are not an average player (and you are either a reroll or just making stuff up since you have not played any high tier French on this account).  And I'm not talking about averages.  I'm talking about optimal play.  For me optimal play is shooting constantly.  When you have concealment module all you gain is +5% dispersion on return fire.  With the steering gears module you get a 4.7 second rudder shift and a rudder that repairs in 7 ish seconds when broken which is kinda what this all started out about. 

Yes if you don't take steering gears mod 3 Last stand is very useful.  I have never been disagreeing about that.  The point I'm making and you keep avoiding is that concealment gives you very little when shooting which is basically the whole point of the line (shoot and avoid being hit).  Everything steering gears mod 3 gives you is useful when shooting and it makes Last stand completely unnecessary.  Not to mention that if you do need to push it is really easy to dodge torps with steering gears mod 3 while concealment mod gives you a chance to stealth cap late game (on the other hand you could be burning down any ships left or just boosting to a cap no one is near anyways). 

If you or anyone wants to use concealment module its basically never a bad decision on any ship.  BUT that does not make it optimal and I think any DPM cruiser i.e. doesn't have radar should strongly consider steering gears mod 3 unless they can get sub 10km concealment like the Japanese.  The Martel is the only one that can even get below 11 km, but to contribute to the team you basically have 17 km + concealment in all of them.  So again, what does concealment mod really give you?  You can't stealth torp; you can't stealth cap until the late game when even battleships can sometimes.  You rarely need to get unspotted because you are so maneuverable and stay at range anyways.  It may be more comfortable and it may be what you prefer, but why is it better.  

 

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16 hours ago, mrh308 said:

Was talking about the module as was the post I quoted.

May bad. Carry on.

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On 7/19/2018 at 8:48 AM, Ace_04 said:

Once you get up to the upper tiers with Henri IV and Saint Louis, your rudder and engine become much more durable.

As for radio location on French cruisers, I'd say that 4 points is easily spent elsewhere.  That's too much of a commitment of commander skills for a trait that is situational at best, especially considering DDs tendency to die early plus the long range play style of these cruisers until late in matches.  

Here is the build that I currently run on Henri IV, and you will notice no IFHE due to the large caliber of her guns:

Capture.JPG

I'd concur on this.  Charles Martel at Tier VIII has garbage a.f. AA and the AFT won't really change that.  But Tier IX-X, French Cruiser AA is actually pretty dang good.  These skills in general help dress up French Cruiser strengths, preferred playstyle, and mitigate an annoying issue (concealment).

 

The Fire Chance on Henri IV with DE + both fire signal flags is a hilarious 26%.  I've had BBs ask me during a match what my chances were on that ship.  I tell them.

"26% with both fire flags."

"JEEZUS!"

:Smile_popcorn:

One GK player I was tormenting at long range was shifting between laughter, horror, and "WTH WG" when I told him the Fire Chance.

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On 7/21/2018 at 3:35 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I'd concur on this.  Charles Martel at Tier VIII has garbage a.f. AA and the AFT won't really change that.  But Tier IX-X, French Cruiser AA is actually pretty dang good.  These skills in general help dress up French Cruiser strengths, preferred playstyle, and mitigate an annoying issue (concealment).

 

The Fire Chance on Henri IV with DE + both fire signal flags is a hilarious 26%.  I've had BBs ask me during a match what my chances were on that ship.  I tell them.

"26% with both fire flags."

"JEEZUS!"

:Smile_popcorn:

One GK player I was tormenting at long range was shifting between laughter, horror, and "WTH WG" when I told him the Fire Chance.

26%.....the one ship that can make a Zao envious.

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