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Sabot_100

What to do when you keep running into your red team countpart?

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In a match with two DDs per team, I am driving a Fujin seeking to head up a flank (the other DD goes elsewhere) and get to all those juicy red BBs when all of a sudden I am detected (RPF gave me a little pre-warning). I see a Kamikaze coming at me. We both have some support so turn, launch torps and run away as fast as we can, maybe smoke up if things get really hot. Reposition a little and try again. Same thing happens. Damage is starting to accumulate but I'm not inflicting much in return. Probably repeated 3 or 4 times.  I have had this happen in games in other ninja torp DDs where the opponent has very similar stealth. Neither spots the other with enough lead to take  any real advantage of it.  What should I do?

1. I could completely reposition to try another route in so I can finally get my torps in play. This however would give the red DD free access to my BBs.

2. I could keep repeating the encounter hoping the red DD dies before I do or goes elsewhere. Thus successfully screening my fleet.

3. I could press the attack using guns once again hoping the red DD dies before I do but as the tier increases, this idea becomes even worse  (radar means no last second smoke to avoid death).

4. Quit trying to press the attack and wait close to my fleet assuming the red DD will try again and this time my support will be more effective. If he does go elsewhere, I'm not doing much for the team.

 

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23 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

I sink that evil clone, that's what I do. :cap_rambo:

This.

giphy.gif

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29 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

I sink that evil clone, that's what I do. :cap_rambo:

 

5 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

This.

giphy.gif

:Smile_great::Smile_teethhappy:

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59 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

In a match with two DDs per team, I am driving a Fujin seeking to head up a flank (the other DD goes elsewhere) and get to all those juicy red BBs when all of a sudden I am detected (RPF gave me a little pre-warning). I see a Kamikaze coming at me. We both have some support so turn, launch torps and run away as fast as we can, maybe smoke up if things get really hot. Reposition a little and try again. Same thing happens. Damage is starting to accumulate but I'm not inflicting much in return. Probably repeated 3 or 4 times.  I have had this happen in games in other ninja torp DDs where the opponent has very similar stealth. Neither spots the other with enough lead to take  any real advantage of it.  What should I do?

1. I could completely reposition to try another route in so I can finally get my torps in play. This however would give the red DD free access to my BBs.

2. I could keep repeating the encounter hoping the red DD dies before I do or goes elsewhere. Thus successfully screening my fleet.

3. I could press the attack using guns once again hoping the red DD dies before I do but as the tier increases, this idea becomes even worse  (radar means no last second smoke to avoid death).

4. Quit trying to press the attack and wait close to my fleet assuming the red DD will try again and this time my support will be more effective. If he does go elsewhere, I'm not doing much for the team.

 

Usually I'm in Akizuki so I just spam HE shells or spam AP shells and they tend to run away scared.

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Put a captain with BFT, AFT and the hp boost(sorry forget what it's called; surviveability expert?)into your Fujin. Opponents don't expect(especially gunboats) that you're going to be that aggressive with your guns. Forget about torps when you first engage, just use your guns. Only bother with the torps if you're sure of a hit. Make sure all of your rounds hit him, you might knock out his rudder or get a fire.

Don't close with a US DD unless you have help. Their gun arcs are bad, keep them at range. If your gunnery is good, you will panic him. Chances are he will find easier pickings elsewhere, leaving more juicier targets for you.

Like others have said, kill him; just be prepared and you must have a captain with gunnery skills, which nobody else mentioned. Also, if it's another Fujin, Kamikazi, Gremy(any premium), assume he has a 19pt captain in it(I know I usually do) and bail unless you're running the same.

 

Edited by _Rumple_
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2 hours ago, _Rumple_ said:

Also, if it's another Fujin, Kamikazi, Gremy(any premium), assume he has a 19pt captain in it(I know I usually do) and bail unless you're running the same.

I do (generally) have a 19pt captain that is also my Shiratsuyu captain. The only gun skills are EM.

Problem with getting into a gunfight, assuming I am equal or slightly better (facing a Mutsuki maybe?), is the backup. Staying visible and not maneuvering to keep those IJN guns on target will get me killed. My team may end up killing the red DD but it seems a waste to make such a trade, and I will end up with a quick trip back to port. The scenario generally plays out with various red ships (BBs and CAs) within 10-12K.

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4 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

I do (generally) have a 19pt captain that is also my Shiratsuyu captain. The only gun skills are EM.

Problem with getting into a gunfight, assuming I am equal or slightly better (facing a Mutsuki maybe?), is the backup. Staying visible and not maneuvering to keep those IJN guns on target will get me killed. My team may end up killing the red DD but it seems a waste to make such a trade, and I will end up with a quick trip back to port. The scenario generally plays out with various red ships (BBs and CAs) within 10-12K.

Well, with both AFT and BFT from my Shimakaze captain in Fujin etc, against IJN DD's especially, the gun power is very noticeable. I don't have any problems 1 vs 1 against Mutsuki or really any gunboat DD either as long as you have surprise(and you usually do, being IJN) as long as you get the first shots in, and your aim is good. You just need to be aggressive and surprise is key. They just don't expect you to use your guns.

Adding other red ships into the mix, however, is a whole other ballgame.

As an aside, recently played my Shimakaze 'gunboat' and have gunned down a T8 german DD, and Harekazi with Akizuki guns. They just don't expect you to trade shots with them. There are limits, of course. I don't play 'gunboat' versus Khabarovsk, Gearing etc. You have to know when and if you should pick a gun duel or not.

Edited by _Rumple_

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6 hours ago, _Rumple_ said:

As an aside, recently played my Shimakaze 'gunboat' and have gunned down a T8 german DD, and Harekazi with Akizuki guns. They just don't expect you to trade shots with them. There are limits, of course. I don't play 'gunboat' versus Khabarovsk, Gearing etc. You have to know when and if you should pick a gun duel or not.

Sometimes you can't escape so might as well shoot. Surprised a Shimi could outgun those 2 DDs, but they are 2 tiers lower. Part of the problem with (most) IJN guns is the rotation. You have to choose between dodging or shooting. A lone encounter, just you and the red DD will play a bit different than you, him and a bunch of friends.

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7 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Sometimes you can't escape so might as well shoot. Surprised a Shimi could outgun those 2 DDs, but they are 2 tiers lower. Part of the problem with (most) IJN guns is the rotation. You have to choose between dodging or shooting. A lone encounter, just you and the red DD will play a bit different than you, him and a bunch of friends.

It is sad how often you run into IJN DD's that won't shoot even when they are stuck in a gun fight.

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I have to say, I'm getting REALLY tired of MatchMaker thinking that a Kami/Fujin is the same as a Minekaze, and "balancing" the match that way.

Over the past couple of weeks, I've been consistently paired opposite a Kami/Fujin by Matchmaker.

It's not even close to a fair match, and effectively removes me from the battle completely. Very few T5 ordinary captains have CE, and virtually all Kami/Fujins have a 19-point captain.  Added to the fact that the Kami's torps are substantially better than the Minekaze's, there's virtually nothing I can do.

I found there's just one play:   sail to the other side of the map, out of the possible operational area.  So, I spend 3 minutes at the start of the game, scouting, only to discover the Kami is on my side of the map. I then have to spend 4+ minutes to get out of his operational range. 

Which means I literally am less worth than an AFK BB for over half the typical match. 

 

How much fun is that, Wargaming?  That my ONLY play possible is literally to not play half the map. At this point in time, Kamikaze and Fujin should be treated as a T6 Fubuki for Matchmaker purposes, because that's where they are, power-wise.

Note that's I'm an old-school IJN player, and I know exactly what their capabilities are, and am substantially above average playing them.  But there's still nothing at all I can do with a ship that's outclassed completely, and for a line that has ONE strength, if you remove that strength, wth are we supposed to do?

 

It's almost as bad as the fact I'm seeing 2-3 radar ships in T5 matches these days.

Edited by LAnybody

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53 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

I have to say, I'm getting REALLY tired of MatchMaker thinking that a Kami/Fujin is the same as a Minekaze, and "balancing" the match that way.

Pretty sure MM just looks at the tier and type. No checking to see if all the good ships/radar/players are all on one team. Just counting CV/BB/CA/DD and tiers.

One of the main reasons behind the frequent steam rolls.

 

Edited by Sabot_100
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2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Pretty sure MM just looks at the tier and type. No checking to see if all the good ships/radar/players are all on one team. Just counting CV/BB/CA/DD and tiers.

One of the main reasons behind the frequent steam rolls.

 

Oh, it absolutely only does that. The only exception is the new "equal ship" MM process that tries to have the exact same ship on each side. In this case, I'm almost 100% certain that the Kami/Fujin/Minekaze are identified to the "same ship" MM as one ship.

MM is one of the big fails of the game, and it's a shame, because it's something that a Jr. Developer should be able to fix in a day or two.

Edited by LAnybody

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On 7/19/2018 at 11:09 AM, BrushWolf said:

It is sad how often you run into IJN DD's that won't shoot even when they are stuck in a gun fight.

It's sad how hard it is to get IJN guns on target when you are maneuvering.  Esp. if stuck in a gunfight. 

Edited by Ensign_Pulver_2016

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25 minutes ago, Ensign_Pulver_2016 said:

It's sad how hard it is to get IJN guns on target when you are maneuvering.  Esp. if stuck in a gunfight. 

I understand that but it doesn't excuse completely ignoring them. I never thought the double whammy of slow turrets and slow rate of fire was necessary. They need a turret turn buff and even then they will be a a distinct disadvantage in a gun fight.

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Just now, BrushWolf said:

I understand that but it doesn't excuse completely ignoring them. I never thought the double whammy of slow turrets and slow rate of fire was necessary. They need a turret turn buff and even then they will be a a distinct disadvantage in a gun fight.

I know how painful it is to get an enemy in the gunsight and push the RMB, only to have the gun drug across the enemy without firing due to the swinging direction. I am sure it looks like ignoring the guns. 

OTOH, if the Harekaze gets overextended, she can put out some pain while I am trying to kite away. 

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12 minutes ago, Ensign_Pulver_2016 said:

I know how painful it is to get an enemy in the gunsight and push the RMB, only to have the gun drug across the enemy without firing due to the swinging direction. I am sure it looks like ignoring the guns. 

OTOH, if the Harekaze gets overextended, she can put out some pain while I am trying to kite away. 

Expert Marksman will help a lot here and while you still won't be able to track a target with the rudder all the way over you will be able to use the guns with medium rudder.

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2 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Expert Marksman will help a lot here and while you still won't be able to track a target with the rudder all the way over you will be able to use the guns with medium rudder.

Thanks, Mate. I have an opportunity to respec I will keep this in mind. 

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2 minutes ago, Ensign_Pulver_2016 said:

Thanks, Mate. I have an opportunity to respec I will keep this in mind. 

I am not a great DD player but have found that spending four points on the second tier pays off for any DD but more so for the Japanese when you end up in an unwelcome gun battle.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

I am not a great DD player but have found that spending four points on the second tier pays off for any DD but more so for the Japanese when you end up in an unwelcome gun battle.

I  may have AR to boost torpedo reloads. I do have TRE and LS, so I have a second 2 point skill in there.

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3 hours ago, Ensign_Pulver_2016 said:

I  may have AR to boost torpedo reloads. I do have TRE and LS, so I have a second 2 point skill in there.

I did mean with EM as the second, I find it to be cheap insurance for those times when shooting is your only real option.

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