Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
Avenge_December_7

Sometimes, Discretion Is The Better Part Of Valor

13 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

779
[STW-M]
Members
2,053 posts
5,874 battles

As much as destroyers are vital to capping and the overall success of a team, after a string of matches today in which a series of early-game destroyer deaths led to defeat despite the team very nearly managing to pull a turnaround (and indeed might very well have succeeded were it not for the early destroyer deaths), I feel compelled to say the following:

A cap is rarely worth dying for. An early cap is NEVER worth dying for.

The power of destroyers increases as the game goes on:

  • the number of radar ships decreases
  • the teams become more and more spread out, thus making it more difficult for support ships to screen for torpedoes or enemy destroyers
  • most likely, some of the enemy destroyers will have died as well, making it even more difficult for the enemy to detect you
  • carriers may run low on planes or be busy with other tasks (and thus forget to spot and/or attack you)

Either way, it's much better to stay alive and grab the caps later in the match than to grab one early, die, and then have said cap be taken right back by the enemy.

Example 1: playing Essex on Land of Fire. Our Benson and Gearing smoke up and cluster up in a handful (perhaps even just a single) puff of smoke in one cap while our Yugumo charged into another cap despite my having spotted (using my fighters) a Des Moines heading for the very same cap earlier.

The end result was that between the enemy Taiho's attacks on the clustered destroyers (which still managed to land 2 torpedoes on the Gearing despite the interference of my fighters and a friendly Cleveland) and the enemy radar cruisers who—to their credit, played very well—charged into the caps, all three of the aforementioned destroyers were dead by the 5 minute mark, 2 of them with less than 300 base xp. The only destroyer we had left at this point was a Khabarovsk, hardly a capping destroyer.

What made this case particularly bad was that, at around the midpoint of the match, the enemy team, having broken through one of the flanks, started getting careless and overextended badly (quite a few of them ended up chasing me), allowing our team to sink all but three of them. Alas, despite our team's efforts (special mention goes to the Khabarovsk and a Cleveland who saved me when I was being pursed by all four enemy destroyers), the early deaths of the three destroyers was too much.

The final result had the enemy team winning on points, with only me left alive on my team (with <100 hp) and a Shimakaze, Musashi, and the enemy Taiho alive on the enemy team (who had basically lost air superiority to me). If even one of the three destroyers that had died early in the game had survived to the mid-game, I'm willing to bet that we could have carried the match, as I still had plenty of planes left to kill the enemy Taiho and Musashi and any one of the three destroyers would have outgunned the Shimakaze. As it stood, the aforementioned Khabarovsk, Cleveland (both of which died, I'm sad to say), and I lost the match having each earned enough base xp to have placed below only the enemy Shimakaze (who was 19 short of 2k base xp) had we won. It's a pity that the team's efforts were wasted by the senseless early deaths of the three destroyers.

Example 2: playing Minsk on Haven. As I had the worst concealment of all the enemy destroyers on the map (and, as a Russian destroyer, suck at cap-fights), the team decides that I will act as a spotter and a gunboat in the east while the other three destroyers split up and go cap. While the game starts off fairly poorly with two of our ships—a New Orleans and a Bretagne—dying with less than 400 base xp and a Konig being afk (and would remain so for the entirety of the match, being the second-to-last player to die, after me and before our Warspite), our team does manage to steadily push back one of the enemy flanks while holding firm in the other, as well as killing two enemy ships. The three destroyers also manage to drive out a couple of the enemy destroyers and get a cap by the 4 minute mark.

Then, disaster struck. At around the 6 minute mark, despite having seen two cruisers heading towards another cap, the three destroyers move towards that very same cap together, probably hoping to kill the lone Gaede that was guarding it (and also probably thinking they didn't need any support, which I honestly can understand: smoke and torp the cruisers, gun down the Gaede). When the cruisers turn to engage our destroyers and dodge the torpedo salvoes, one of the destroyers attempts to flee and get summarily taken out while the other two panic-smoke together. They do sink the Gaede, but the Gaede retaliates for 2 flesh wounds, 2 devastating strikes, and and a double strike.

Suddenly the game turns from a 9v10 to a 7v9, with myself being the only destroyer left alive, and our team rapidly falls apart from that point onwards. The holding effort on one side now disintegrates due to the disappearance of the torpedo threat—allowing the previously hesitant enemy battleships to quickly push forward and crush the holding force—while our team's advance on the other flank dissolves as the enemy's 3 remaining enemy destroyers, with the support of their re-inspired battleships, cut our team's battleships and cruisers to shreds. I do my best to stem the tide, killing the enemy Warspite, New York (these two from full health to zero with torpedoes), and Akatsuki (who gave a hard fight thanks to my turret's slow rotation speed), capping, and even taking citadel shots at inattentive enemy cruisers, but it was ultimately only a matter of time until our team was wiped out. The game ends having lasted a grand total of 11 minutes.

The final score has our team being fairly neck-in-neck with most of the enemy team base xp-wise, accounting for the victory bonus (except for the afk Konig and the two ships that died early), with me (first place on my team) having done 107k damage (86k with torpedoes) and about 1.2k base xp on a loss (the top enemy player, the Warspite that I nuked and the one that killed me, got about 1.4 base xp). The enemy Gaede, while having IMO been the one that turned the fight around for his team, only gained 1k base xp for 5th place on his team (too bad blocking enemy caps doesn't give any xp, because otherwise he'd probably be on top).

Indeed, had those three destroyers not made the mistake of rushing in too early and without support (they had actually been playing fairly well up to that point), it is quite likely, IMO, that our team might have been able to overcome the initial setbacks and push on to victory. The enemy team certainly did well rallying and ultimately beating us (especially the Gaede), but it definitely would've been a much harder fight for them had the three destroyers not attempted to rush the Gaede when he had cruiser support.

TL; DR:

youre-alive-good-stay-that-way-30459326.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
246
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
1,044 posts
8,217 battles
26 minutes ago, Avenge_December_7 said:
Spoiler

 

As much as destroyers are vital to capping and the overall success of a team, after a string of matches today in which a series of early-game destroyer deaths led to defeat despite the team very nearly managing to pull a turnaround (and indeed might very well have succeeded were it not for the early destroyer deaths), I feel compelled to say the following:

A cap is rarely worth dying for. An early cap is NEVER worth dying for.

The power of destroyers increases as the game goes on:

  • the number of radar ships decreases
  • the teams become more and more spread out, thus making it more difficult for support ships to screen for torpedoes or enemy destroyers
  • most likely, some of the enemy destroyers will have died as well, making it even more difficult for the enemy to detect you
  • carriers may run low on planes or be busy with other tasks (and thus forget to spot and/or attack you)

Either way, it's much better to stay alive and grab the caps later in the match than to grab one early, die, and then have said cap be taken right back by the enemy.

Example 1: playing Essex on Land of Fire. Our Benson and Gearing smoke up and cluster up in a handful (perhaps even just a single) puff of smoke in one cap while our Yugumo charged into another cap despite my having spotted (using my fighters) a Des Moines heading for the very same cap earlier.

The end result was that between the enemy Taiho's attacks on the clustered destroyers (which still managed to land 2 torpedoes on the Gearing despite the interference of my fighters and a friendly Cleveland) and the enemy radar cruisers who—to their credit, played very well—charged into the caps, all three of the aforementioned destroyers were dead by the 5 minute mark, 2 of them with less than 300 base xp. The only destroyer we had left at this point was a Khabarovsk, hardly a capping destroyer.

What made this case particularly bad was that, at around the midpoint of the match, the enemy team, having broken through one of the flanks, started getting careless and overextended badly (quite a few of them ended up chasing me), allowing our team to sink all but three of them. Alas, despite our team's efforts (special mention goes to the Khabarovsk and a Cleveland who saved me when I was being pursed by all four enemy destroyers), the early deaths of the three destroyers was too much.

The final result had the enemy team winning on points, with only me left alive on my team (with <100 hp) and a Shimakaze, Musashi, and the enemy Taiho alive on the enemy team (who had basically lost air superiority to me). If even one of the three destroyers that had died early in the game had survived to the mid-game, I'm willing to bet that we could have carried the match, as I still had plenty of planes left to kill the enemy Taiho and Musashi and any one of the three destroyers would have outgunned the Shimakaze. As it stood, the aforementioned Khabarovsk, Cleveland (both of which died, I'm sad to say), and I lost the match having each earned enough base xp to have placed below only the enemy Shimakaze (who was 19 short of 2k base xp) had we won. It's a pity that the team's efforts were wasted by the senseless early deaths of the three destroyers.

Example 2: playing Minsk on Haven. As I had the worst concealment of all the enemy destroyers on the map (and, as a Russian destroyer, suck at cap-fights), the team decides that I will act as a spotter and a gunboat in the east while the other three destroyers split up and go cap. While the game starts off fairly poorly with two of our ships—a New Orleans and a Bretagne—dying with less than 400 base xp and a Konig being afk (and would remain so for the entirety of the match, being the second-to-last player to die, after me and before our Warspite), our team does manage to steadily push back one of the enemy flanks while holding firm in the other, as well as killing two enemy ships. The three destroyers also manage to drive out a couple of the enemy destroyers and get a cap by the 4 minute mark.

Then, disaster struck. At around the 6 minute mark, despite having seen two cruisers heading towards another cap, the three destroyers move towards that very same cap together, probably hoping to kill the lone Gaede that was guarding it (and also probably thinking they didn't need any support, which I honestly can understand: smoke and torp the cruisers, gun down the Gaede). When the cruisers turn to engage our destroyers and dodge the torpedo salvoes, one of the destroyers attempts to flee and get summarily taken out while the other two panic-smoke together. They do sink the Gaede, but the Gaede retaliates for 2 flesh wounds, 2 devastating strikes, and and a double strike.

Suddenly the game turns from a 9v10 to a 7v9, with myself being the only destroyer left alive, and our team rapidly falls apart from that point onwards. The holding effort on one side now disintegrates due to the disappearance of the torpedo threat—allowing the previously hesitant enemy battleships to quickly push forward and crush the holding force—while our team's advance on the other flank dissolves as the enemy's 3 remaining enemy destroyers, with the support of their re-inspired battleships, cut our team's battleships and cruisers to shreds. I do my best to stem the tide, killing the enemy Warspite, New York (these two from full health to zero with torpedoes), and Akatsuki (who gave a hard fight thanks to my turret's slow rotation speed), capping, and even taking citadel shots at inattentive enemy cruisers, but it was ultimately only a matter of time until our team was wiped out. The game ends having lasted a grand total of 11 minutes.

The final score has our team being fairly neck-in-neck with most of the enemy team base xp-wise, accounting for the victory bonus (except for the afk Konig and the two ships that died early), with me (first place on my team) having done 107k damage (86k with torpedoes) and about 1.2k base xp on a loss (the top enemy player, the Warspite that I nuked and the one that killed me, got about 1.4 base xp). The enemy Gaede, while having IMO been the one that turned the fight around for his team, only gained 1k base xp for 5th place on his team (too bad blocking enemy caps doesn't give any xp, because otherwise he'd probably be on top).

Indeed, had those three destroyers not made the mistake of rushing in too early and without support (they had actually been playing fairly well up to that point), it is quite likely, IMO, that our team might have been able to overcome the initial setbacks and push on to victory. The enemy team certainly did well rallying and ultimately beating us (especially the Gaede), but it definitely would've been a much harder fight for them had the three destroyers not attempted to rush the Gaede when he had cruiser support.

TL; DR:

youre-alive-good-stay-that-way-30459326.

 

 

 

447a39e25f79e477cb2a709ae04a7e8a256061e2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
432
[FAE]
Members
2,161 posts
2,635 battles

cool! I'll keep reading 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
726
[HYDRO]
Members
1,571 posts
3,751 battles

I agree 99% with what you wrote. HOWEVER, example #2 I would have handled differently in your place. VMF DDs can handle caps, and in fact are excellent as support, being behind your main capper to help vs the red capper. In the start of the battle your speed allows you to zoom in the cap, have your opponents show themselves, then if it gets too hot open up speed boost and escape without much trouble. Most of the ships at that point haven't gotten into position yet, so you mostly risk light DD damage. So in your case, I would have followed a DD to a cap first, then depending on the enemy presence stick around till cap was secured, and then go full gunboat.

Just my 2 cents from playing Kiev quite a bit lately.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
449
[-AA-]
Members
1,729 posts
6,657 battles
17 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

I agree 99% with what you wrote. HOWEVER, example #2 I would have handled differently in your place. VMF DDs can handle caps, and in fact are excellent as support, being behind your main capper to help vs the red capper. In the start of the battle your speed allows you to zoom in the cap, have your opponents show themselves, then if it gets too hot open up speed boost and escape without much trouble. Most of the ships at that point haven't gotten into position yet, so you mostly risk light DD damage. So in your case, I would have followed a DD to a cap first, then depending on the enemy presence stick around till cap was secured, and then go full gunboat.

Just my 2 cents from playing Kiev quite a bit lately.

Not to forget the flat arcs that makes it pretty simple to hit destroyers over a bigger distance. SN DDs are imo the best DDs as support with taking caps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,437
[-K-]
Members
5,270 posts
9,104 battles

Agreed.  With the prevalence of radar ships in higher tiers, I find it better to scout a cap from a distance at the outset of a match, until I know the locations of the radar ships.  Once that has been established, it can then be decided if a cap is worth/able to be contested (depending on support and enemy strength at location).  But if a player insists on capping initially, at least have an exit plan for getting out of a cap if/when you get lit up by radar (I always have my ship facing the edge of the cap to speed boost out if radared).

As you mentioned, a DD increases strength exponentially the longer it survives in a match.  Even if it does nothing, the fear of an unspotted DD can completely halt a push and help sway momentum against any team.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
301
[CK5]
Members
804 posts
6,555 battles

Through hard experience I have learned not to sit in smoke in a cap (I use smoke to cover my retreat only), and never sail parallel to the enemy while in a cap ( a good way to collect enemy torps sent as area denial).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
432
[FAE]
Members
2,161 posts
2,635 battles

Honestly, idk what the RU DDs are actually meant to do, even though they have good damage (fighting DDs?) 

It seems like, many times, they become dead weight against other DDs. (Except Khab. That thing will just murder stuff) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
726
[HYDRO]
Members
1,571 posts
3,751 battles
3 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

Honestly, idk what the RU DDs are actually meant to do, even though they have good damage (fighting DDs?) 

It seems like, many times, they become dead weight against other DDs. (Except Khab. That thing will just murder stuff) 

In a RU DD you first use your excellent shell velocities to nail DDs at ranges they are uncomfortable at. Then you can abuse the range you get with AFT to burn down everything provided you get enough time. You can be nailing BBs 13km+ out constantly. Good luck to them hitting you while going 42+ knots. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
432
[FAE]
Members
2,161 posts
2,635 battles
Just now, warheart1992 said:

In a RU DD you first use your excellent shell velocities to nail DDs at ranges they are uncomfortable at. Then you can abuse the range you get with AFT to burn down everything provided you get enough time. You can be nailing BBs 13km+ out constantly. Good luck to them hitting you while going 42+ knots. 

Sometimes though I see RU DDs losing the game because they aren't able to really burn enough down within time or within capping points accruing to make up for the inability to contest caps against surviving stealthier DDs. As someone who wants to win more, this doesn't seem as useful. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
726
[HYDRO]
Members
1,571 posts
3,751 battles
8 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

Sometimes though I see RU DDs losing the game because they aren't able to really burn enough down within time or within capping points accruing to make up for the inability to contest caps against surviving stealthier DDs. As someone who wants to win more, this doesn't seem as useful. 

It depends really on the map and your spawn. RU DDs are at their best when left alone on a fallen flank. You can tie and delay pushes easily. There is also another, kinda overlooked role they play. They can often help the team by attracting alot of attention. I often had battles with 1-2mil potential damage. 

All that said, they got a selfish playstyle but can help the team in other ways.

Edited by warheart1992

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
432
[FAE]
Members
2,161 posts
2,635 battles
1 minute ago, warheart1992 said:

It depends really on the map and your spawn. RU DDs are at their best when left alone on a fallen flank. You can tie and delay pushes easily. There is also another, kinda overlooked role they play. They can often help the team by attracting alot of attention. I often had battles with 1-2mil potential damage. 

All that said, they got a selfish playstyle but can help the team in other ways.

Yeah I know. I've seen some Khabs single handedly pied-piper my potato teams to A10. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×