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xPapa_Smurfx

Three simple fixes to make the game fun again

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The whole game comes down to who occupies the invulnerable terrain first wins.  Hug an island, shoot from cover, go slow, back away from danger, and most especially don't take risks.  Rinse and repeat.  Naval battles just didn't happen like that, and going slow got you killed!  It made hitting you child's play.

The over reaction to last year's "ZOMG there are way too many torpedoes" brought us the current radar storm meta that has nerfed DDs into oblivion.  Sure, I get a lucky shot in once in awhile, but detection equals death above tier 7.  Radar going through islands is the dumbest idea ever and just makes the DD nerf worse!  It absolutely punishes risk takers.

The Detected indicator is bad enough.  Priority target makes it worse.  Managing counter detection (i.e. knowing a DD is out there AND just shot you) is far too easy.  Now add a Missouri to the mix with a radar equipped BB.  Those three elements (radar, the Detect indicator, and Priority Target) have made "stealth" all but useless.

Solutions are simple.

1. Make dispersion automatically change depending on the speed of the target.  Slow or stopped target, dispersion near zero.  Fast target, more dispersion.  This is absolutely how gun fire control actually worked.  Still does in a way.  Punish the creepers but especially the retrograders!

2. Just make radar and hydro not go through land.  Come on.  Just do it.  The status quo is stupid and punishes risk takers.

3. Make Priority Target only tell you how many ships you have detected are aiming at you.  Hidden ships don't make it react.  As it is right now, Priority Target simply gets the radar turned on and the DD killed.  Fix that!

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A simpler fix to force people to move and maneuver instead of simply going bow on would be to punish people for getting hit bow on with increased bow on/stern on damage and somewhat reduced damage for being broadside. This would indirectly make HE more of an AP is not working ammo instead of a go to ammo.

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@xPapa_Smurfx You might see some action on this if you sent it to the developers or other WG staff their names are right there in the 1st 2 columns of post titles on the right side of the page!

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Nah I am with WG the simplest solution is to sell MOAR BB:Smile_teethhappy:

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11 hours ago, xPapa_Smurfx said:

The whole game comes down to who occupies the invulnerable terrain first wins.  Hug an island, shoot from cover, go slow, back away from danger, and most especially don't take risks.  Rinse and repeat.  Naval battles just didn't happen like that, and going slow got you killed!  It made hitting you child's play.

The over reaction to last year's "ZOMG there are way too many torpedoes" brought us the current radar storm meta that has nerfed DDs into oblivion.  Sure, I get a lucky shot in once in awhile, but detection equals death above tier 7.  Radar going through islands is the dumbest idea ever and just makes the DD nerf worse!  It absolutely punishes risk takers.

The Detected indicator is bad enough.  Priority target makes it worse.  Managing counter detection (i.e. knowing a DD is out there AND just shot you) is far too easy.  Now add a Missouri to the mix with a radar equipped BB.  Those three elements (radar, the Detect indicator, and Priority Target) have made "stealth" all but useless.

Solutions are simple.

1. Make dispersion automatically change depending on the speed of the target.  Slow or stopped target, dispersion near zero.  Fast target, more dispersion.  This is absolutely how gun fire control actually worked.  Still does in a way.  Punish the creepers but especially the retrograders!

2. Just make radar and hydro not go through land.  Come on.  Just do it.  The status quo is stupid and punishes risk takers.

3. Make Priority Target only tell you how many ships you have detected are aiming at you.  Hidden ships don't make it react.  As it is right now, Priority Target simply gets the radar turned on and the DD killed.  Fix that!

Glad you have been staying sober, me I still like the rum ... :P

As for WOT on Water, I do agree especially high tier matches involve humping islands and creeping around to avoid being instantly deleted by a BB with 12x 16" guns or a spread of 15x 533 mm torpedoes. 

1. Dispersion is a factor of distance, not target motion in this game.  Which is why high tier cruiser like to spam HE at their maximum range preferably from over an island. I would like to see dispersion as a factor of speed of target, but I am not sure the "game developers" could code such a solution.

2. Radar and Hydro go through Islands because they claim it's a "game engine limitation" while I prefer to think it's actually a "game developers who are bad at game programming limitation",  but I digress. Adding Radar to the Missouri BB was a game developer "gimmick" to help "sell" the first "Free Xp" ship. (yeah, like anyone actually grinded out the full 750k Free XP without spending real money) Of course in real life WW2 the US BB had powerful long range Radar, but this ain't even close to a simulation game.

3. Priority Target reacting to not detected ships is a bug, or undocumented feature, depending on who you ask. It's a built-in hack like a few other not so secret flaws in the "game design". There was once a bug where the lead indicator on the crosshair would blink when you had the lead exactly correct, until Notser revealed it on YouTube.

Fixing bugs and hacks doesn't really generate new revenue, but adding new pixel ships with cool names does, can you understand Wargaming priority ??

 

I find if I want a decent game as a DD I need to head down to Tier 6 or less and hope I don't get up-tiered into Premium Cruisers with Radar hell matchmaking ...

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12 hours ago, xPapa_Smurfx said:

3. Make Priority Target only tell you how many ships you have detected are aiming at you.  Hidden ships don't make it react.  As it is right now, Priority Target simply gets the radar turned on and the DD killed.  Fix that!

[edited] sail with their guns out. Chadunicums always have their torps selected near radar ships so people can't guess by the PT indicator. We also intentionally flash our guns outside of radar range just to scare you with disinfo. PT is fine, stop complaining.

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In general - redo the spotting rules entirely. This game represents ships in the period of 1900 to 1945. There was no NTDS (Naval Tactical Data System) in those days. If you were spotted by a destroyer, the BB division over the horizon or behind an island could not target you. The fire control systems required that on board systems (usually visual but sometimes radar) had to be able to see the target. Just knowing that a cruiser was "over there" did not instantly generate a firing solution.

Right now in the game - when there is a cyclone - these rules are in effect. A red ship may be spotted, but you have no firing solution unless the ship is within your visual range. So the excuse "the game engine can't do it" is bogus. It already does it. You want a game where BB's push and dd's can scout and have a reasonable chance of survival?  FIX THE SPOTTING RULES!

Edited by mushmouthmorton
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I love how people always complain about radar and hydro not being  realistic, yet never about firing from inside smoke not being realistic.

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I don't see where the game isn't fun.  I love the game, and all the issues you mentioned I have learned to deal with.  Cope. Adapt. Overcome.

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Let's see, what ship needs island cover often?
Des Memes, Whorechaser, Meme-o-turd?

What's the most significant drawback that they have?
Squishy hull and slow shell speed

What do you do?
Tap "W" key 4 times, use "A" and "D" key occasionally.

Or, if you can shoot them, you should, you know... Shoot them?

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3 hours ago, xPapa_Smurfx said:

The game has become WoT on Water.  It's absolutely not naval in the least except for the scenery.  The whole game comes down to who occupies the invulnerable terrain first wins.  Hug an island, shoot from cover, go slow, back away from danger, and most especially don't take risks.  Rinse and repeat.  Naval battles just didn't happen like that, and going slow got you killed!  It made hitting you child's play.

 

The game was intentionally built from the ground up as WoT on water, not as a naval simulation. Want proof? Look at the armor design.  That's why you have bow tanking: because tanks.

 

Think about it. Defillade, hull-down, overwatch, and indirect fire are all elements of land warfare implemented in game as sea tactics.

 

This is not going to change. Ever.

 

WoWS is not a realistic simulation, and was never intended to be. It's an arcade shooter with pretty boats.

 

We play for fun, as-is. People who ask for pie in the sky go hungry.

 

 

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wows was never "naval",radar that detect trough island,going broadside is not cool,secondary artillery is manned by impaired sailors,the ship's speed don't interfere with the shells and so many more things.

it's still a great arcade game,i hardly play the game since i lack a permanent way to play it(can only play when i visit someone with a good computer),and come to think of it,the absence just made the game more fun to me.

now for a "naval" simulator,i might try Warthunder naval combat one day.

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2 hours ago, The_first_harbinger said:

Let's see, what ship needs island cover often?
Des Memes, Whorechaser, Meme-o-turd?

What's the most significant drawback that they have?
Squishy hull and slow shell speed

What do you do?
Tap "W" key 4 times, use "A" and "D" key occasionally.

Or, if you can shoot them, you should, you know... Shoot them?

Des Memes, Whorechaser, Meme-o-turd?

 

LOL!!!

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4 hours ago, BigJohnsonLogan said:

I find if I want a decent game as a DD I need to head down to Tier 6 or less and hope I don't get up-tiered into Premium Cruisers with Radar hell matchmaking ...

No get rid of CV with your post this time.

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7 hours ago, xPapa_Smurfx said:

Just a little TMI, I've been sober for 34 years.  I do remember what it was like when an addiction simply wasn't fun anymore but I did it anyways because I didn't know what else to do.  That's what WoWS feels like now.

The game has become WoT on Water.  It's absolutely not naval in the least except for the scenery.  The whole game comes down to who occupies the invulnerable terrain first wins.  Hug an island, shoot from cover, go slow, back away from danger, and most especially don't take risks.  Rinse and repeat.  Naval battles just didn't happen like that, and going slow got you killed!  It made hitting you child's play.

The over reaction to last year's "ZOMG there are way too many torpedoes" brought us the current radar storm meta that has nerfed DDs into oblivion.  Sure, I get a lucky shot in once in awhile, but detection equals death above tier 7.  Radar going through islands is the dumbest idea ever and just makes the DD nerf worse!  It absolutely punishes risk takers.

The Detected indicator is bad enough.  Priority target makes it worse.  Managing counter detection (i.e. knowing a DD is out there AND just shot you) is far too easy.  Now add a Missouri to the mix with a radar equipped BB.  Those three elements (radar, the Detect indicator, and Priority Target) have made "stealth" all but useless.

Solutions are simple.

1. Make dispersion automatically change depending on the speed of the target.  Slow or stopped target, dispersion near zero.  Fast target, more dispersion.  This is absolutely how gun fire control actually worked.  Still does in a way.  Punish the creepers but especially the retrograders!

2. Just make radar and hydro not go through land.  Come on.  Just do it.  The status quo is stupid and punishes risk takers.

3. Make Priority Target only tell you how many ships you have detected are aiming at you.  Hidden ships don't make it react.  As it is right now, Priority Target simply gets the radar turned on and the DD killed.  Fix that!

Looks like a new twist on the common "radar had made DD's unplayable" argument.

I believe you need a lesson in gunnery. The target has nothing to do with dispersion. The laws of physics acting on the ship & the guns firing the shells is what creates dispersion, not the target.

Hiding behind a island is taking a risk????????????????? Using an island for cover is attempting to minimize your risk. 

 

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Congrats on staying sober! 

I feel ya, being a simmer myself the "game" mechanics of WoWs irritated the bejesus out of me! There is no getting around it, WoWs IS WoT on water. The sooner you accept that & that its not likely to change the happier you will be. 

20yrs ago or so there was a game called Fighting Steel. To his day it is still the finest WWII naval sim of all time but it had its drawbacks. The graphics for the time were pretty good but lame as hell by todays standards but the gameplay was amazing. I had a group of buddies that we would get together & play it MP each taking command of a division & spend all day Saturday playing (naval battles take hours if not days to finish). 
I have toyed with the idea of digging up a old PC & installing it many times but WoWs is so much prettier. 

For the kids among us; behold children. What gaming looked like 20yrs ago. 

fs-fire.jpg

 

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8 hours ago, xPapa_Smurfx said:

Just a little TMI, I've been sober for 34 years.  I do remember what it was like when an addiction simply wasn't fun anymore but I did it anyways because I didn't know what else to do.  That's what WoWS feels like now.

The game has become WoT on Water.  It's absolutely not naval in the least except for the scenery.  The whole game comes down to who occupies the invulnerable terrain first wins.  Hug an island, shoot from cover, go slow, back away from danger, and most especially don't take risks.  Rinse and repeat.  Naval battles just didn't happen like that, and going slow got you killed!  It made hitting you child's play.

The over reaction to last year's "ZOMG there are way too many torpedoes" brought us the current radar storm meta that has nerfed DDs into oblivion.  Sure, I get a lucky shot in once in awhile, but detection equals death above tier 7.  Radar going through islands is the dumbest idea ever and just makes the DD nerf worse!  It absolutely punishes risk takers.

The Detected indicator is bad enough.  Priority target makes it worse.  Managing counter detection (i.e. knowing a DD is out there AND just shot you) is far too easy.  Now add a Missouri to the mix with a radar equipped BB.  Those three elements (radar, the Detect indicator, and Priority Target) have made "stealth" all but useless.

Solutions are simple.

1. Make dispersion automatically change depending on the speed of the target.  Slow or stopped target, dispersion near zero.  Fast target, more dispersion.  This is absolutely how gun fire control actually worked.  Still does in a way.  Punish the creepers but especially the retrograders!

2. Just make radar and hydro not go through land.  Come on.  Just do it.  The status quo is stupid and punishes risk takers.

3. Make Priority Target only tell you how many ships you have detected are aiming at you.  Hidden ships don't make it react.  As it is right now, Priority Target simply gets the radar turned on and the DD killed.  Fix that!

Yeah terrible ideas.  It would just make the game even more static.

The increased bow/reduced broadside damage idea is a good one.

But here’s a way to make the game more fun right now....  stop playing tiers 9 & 10.   The gameplay at those tiers is awful.

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7 hours ago, BigJohnsonLogan said:

2. Radar and Hydro go through Islands because they claim it's a "game engine limitation" while I prefer to think it's actually a "game developers who are bad at game programming limitation",  but I digress. Adding Radar to the Missouri BB was a game developer "gimmick" to help "sell" the first "Free Xp" ship. (yeah, like anyone actually grinded out the full 750k Free XP without spending real money) Of course in real life WW2 the US BB had powerful long range Radar, but this ain't even close to a simulation game.

It would be pretty neat if they went ahead and gave all the USN BBs and CA/CLs Radar, but instead of it being a magical see all, anti every bit of cover in the game ability, why not let it be a 30s boost to shell sigma value? 

I mean, USN ships in this game are all about being gunboats and AA platforms.  They have terrible secondaries, so dont really brawl worth a hoot(Mass not included).  Sooo, it would make sense and help with the radar spam, to instead go the route of the USN Radar being a slight boost to main gun and secondary sigma, for like 30s, which would only get you like 1 shot worth from the BBs, and maybe 2-3 salvos from the CA/CLs.  I figure a 1.8-1.9 sigma, 1.7-1.8 boost in sigma for 30s, just enough to help the ship shoot more accurately and better play their gun boat roles.  Or maybe a 2 salvo boost, you pop it, your next 2 salvos get a boosted sigma value, then the ability goes on like a 5m cool down, so as not to be used more then maybe once or twice a game, maybe ultimately 3 times a game. 

This would apply to all BB tiers where they actually had radar, which would start at what?  T6 on?  T7?

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I'm not convinced this would improve the game.  You can get a taste of this kind of game play on the Ocean Map.  There's no island humping.  Ships stay mobile.  Radar and hydro don't have any obstacles they magically beam through.  However Ocean remains unpopular.  I love it, personally, but I get the feeling that I'm the odd one out.

 

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2 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

However Ocean remains unpopular.  I love it, personally, but I get the feeling that I'm the odd one out.

 

No you're not my lady, IF anything we need WOWS CC help to suggest Ocean map to be mandatory for all tiers. I for one love the map and its well received from those who play it.

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10 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I'm not convinced this would improve the game.  You can get a taste of this kind of game play on the Ocean Map.  There's no island humping.  Ships stay mobile.  Radar and hydro don't have any obstacles they magically beam through.  However Ocean remains unpopular.  I love it, personally, but I get the feeling that I'm the odd one out.

 

Yep...nailed it.   

vr,

P.S.  I like Ocean also unless I'm in the Atlanta...lol

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The paradox is that Tiers 8 through 10 should be, but aren't, where the "best gameplay" actually resides....  Getting to tier 8 through 10 should be the result of the grind....you've worked your way up to that level; not, buying in at those tiers because it "devalues" the grind to the point all one has to do is buy premium ships and completely avoid the grinds completely......  In doing so, game play is devalued.  Skill is devalued.  Era tactical and role competence isn't learned.

Let's take a second and talk about what WoWs's "value proposition" is:  this game is supposed to be the Iron and Steel ship era.....  The height of the Industrial revolution's influence on warfare.....just before the introduction of the "information age"....  WG has messed with the value proposition with radar and HE Spam to increase revenue and to make it a more available FPS....  Arena FPS's thrive on the ease of use....  As we were not are, people really had to know "something" about a the lesser technology that drove that era:  analogue fighting and LOS systems....  That made gameplay a "thinking game" and a lot of younger players started rejecting that premise.  They want fast and easy to master games...  WG sees and is appealing to the "like generation" versus the "Baby Boomers"......  A large mistake IMO.  Because that's generational and culturally incompetent:  BB's are the children of that era where their parent and grand parents served....  BB's are mostly retiring now and have the time and disposable incomes to play these kind of games.....talk about going the wrong way.....the last people you want to not serve in a game!   The children of WW2 !!!  Wow....  WoTs failed my generation and we 100% do not play it anymore.  WoWs is failing our generation and we are asking WG to "wake up"....  there are other games we can easily play and we'd like you to be one of them......

Solution:  Make radar operate as it would have in that era: one ship one firing solution and it stops seeing through terrain and weather.  Change the HE spam dynamic.  There is no way a lone cruiser Captain would take on a first rate BB in open water in LOS and yet, every game of late, a CA will drive out and burn out brawling BB's before they can get into effective range.  Be an arcade is fine but, at least, make the effort of some era competent realism...  Do not compromise that value proposition any more: tovarish, tbl pomimayesh? 

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40 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

It would be pretty neat if they went ahead and gave all the USN BBs and CA/CLs Radar, but instead of it being a magical see all, anti every bit of cover in the game ability, why not let it be a 30s boost to shell sigma value? 

I mean, USN ships in this game are all about being gunboats and AA platforms.  They have terrible secondaries, so dont really brawl worth a hoot(Mass not included).  Sooo, it would make sense and help with the radar spam, to instead go the route of the USN Radar being a slight boost to main gun and secondary sigma, for like 30s, which would only get you like 1 shot worth from the BBs, and maybe 2-3 salvos from the CA/CLs.  I figure a 1.8-1.9 sigma, 1.7-1.8 boost in sigma for 30s, just enough to help the ship shoot more accurately and better play their gun boat roles.  Or maybe a 2 salvo boost, you pop it, your next 2 salvos get a boosted sigma value, then the ability goes on like a 5m cool down, so as not to be used more then maybe once or twice a game, maybe ultimately 3 times a game. 

This would apply to all BB tiers where they actually had radar, which would start at what?  T6 on?  T7?

Or, you could just do the correct and practical thing, ELIMINATE RADAR COMPLETELY.  Get rid of it!  

Cruisers without radar seem to somehow squander by, and they get along just fine.  You don’t need to tweak it, you don’t need to try to fix it, you just need to get rid of it completely. Parity is restored and no one has radar to complain about.  Problem solved.

 

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I would like to see three things, for a start:

More open water.

Radar and sonar that behaved like in the real world.

Reverse speed changed from 1/4 to 1/10.

 

I already have Tanks. I don't need another version of it.

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