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DarkJudgeDeath

Bismarck CE vs MFCSA

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Right now i have a 14pt captain on my Bismarck with PM,EM,BFT and Aft. from playing mostly tier 10 games i found secondaries to be more or less uselss and was thinking it might be better to just take CE to close the range so i can use my main guns. So my question is would the accuracy boost from MFCSA be worth it since MM puts me mostly against tier 10 ships.

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longer range secondaries tend to be a good deterant against DDs. plus German secondaries get a special pen bonuses that does more damage than other nations, you'd be wasting your ships potential!

 

 also, if your'e getting up tiered a bunch try and stick with other ships so your not picked off as much.:fish_aqua:

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52 minutes ago, DarkJudgeDeath said:

Right now i have a 14pt captain on my Bismarck with PM,EM,BFT and Aft. from playing mostly tier 10 games i found secondaries to be more or less uselss and was thinking it might be better to just take CE to close the range so i can use my main guns. So my question is would the accuracy boost from MFCSA be worth it since MM puts me mostly against tier 10 ships.

I highly recommend full secondary builds on German BBs so I would recommend Manual Fire Control as it makes your secondaries so much more accurate. Your Main Guns are so horrible when it comes to dispersion that CE and getting closer doesn't help as much as it should. The 60% buff to your secondaries is life changing though. 

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On 7/15/2018 at 1:22 PM, C6tom said:

I highly recommend full secondary builds on German BBs so I would recommend Manual Fire Control as it makes your secondaries so much more accurate. Your Main Guns are so horrible when it comes to dispersion that CE and getting closer doesn't help as much as it should. The 60% buff to your secondaries is life changing though. 

Added this on my Gneis yesterday, and was pleasantly surprised.  I was a bit reluctant because of the fact that you have to manually select a target, but I found that works out fine given the way I play the Gneis anyway.  Right now I have 8km range on secondaries because of secondary range upgrades, and should have a little over 10km range when I move that captain to Bismarck.  I'm finding that the secondary mods are more useful than the torpedoes on the Gneis really.  The torps are pretty easily detectable, and unless you're at about 3km, more often than not don't find their target anyway.  They're more like a comfort blanket and area denial IMO.      

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2 hours ago, fuller31 said:

Added this on my Gneis yesterday, and was pleasantly surprised.  I was a bit reluctant because of the fact that you have to manually select a target, but I found that works out fine given the way I play the Gneis anyway.  Right now I have 8km range on secondaries because of secondary range upgrades, and should have a little over 10km range when I move that captain to Bismarck.  I'm finding that the secondary mods are more useful than the torpedoes on the Gneis really.  The torps are pretty easily detectable, and unless you're at about 3km, more often than not don't find their target anyway.  They're more like a comfort blanket and area denial IMO.      

You're supposed to use the Torpedoes as point-blank weapons to deny rams or instantly win 'jousts' with other BB. They're also useful for torping DDs hiding in smoke near you. 
A full secondary spec Bismarck reaches 11.3km with flag. 
But I highly, HIGHLY don't recommend using secondary spec above Bismarck. You'll get some random good games here and there, but the meta just changes too much and just about no one gets very close to you anymore. At Tier 9 with FDG you're better off respeccing into survivability. But trust me, Bismarck is a keeper. I've tried running other builds, but Secondary Bismarck is just the best. FDG and GK just can't make good enough use of it sadly. They have it, just the chances to use it are much more limited.

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38 minutes ago, Seniorious said:

You're supposed to use the Torpedoes as point-blank weapons to deny rams or instantly win 'jousts' with other BB. They're also useful for torping DDs hiding in smoke near you. 
A full secondary spec Bismarck reaches 11.3km with flag. 
But I highly, HIGHLY don't recommend using secondary spec above Bismarck. You'll get some random good games here and there, but the meta just changes too much and just about no one gets very close to you anymore. At Tier 9 with FDG you're better off respeccing into survivability. But trust me, Bismarck is a keeper. I've tried running other builds, but Secondary Bismarck is just the best. FDG and GK just can't make good enough use of it sadly. They have it, just the chances to use it are much more limited.

Unfortunately, I don't see too many times where the right opportunity presents itself.  Maybe chalk it up to being a newer player still learning, I don't know.  It seems like half the time, they know and avoid that 6km range like the plague.  The other half, it's a higher tiered BB that can shred me and doesn't care (catching a lot of T9 matchups), so I want to avoid him.  

 

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It's a hard choice, really.  I'd say Manual Secondaries because it brings the full potential of Bismarck Secondaries into play.  But garbage BB concealment is a major "quality of life" detractor.  It's hard for you to not be spotted unless you're stupidly far away;  It gets harder for you to disengage and recover without being constantly shelled at long range because you got sh*t concealment, made worse by fires making your sh*t concealment even sh*ttier.  You'll also get spotted far away at the start of the match and every a$$h*le with long ranged guns on the map is getting easy pot shots at you.  You end up taking needless damage before you are even in your optimal fighting position you wanted to reach.

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Why not both? I did AFT, Manual secondaries, and CE

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8 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It's a hard choice, really.  I'd say Manual Secondaries because it brings the full potential of Bismarck Secondaries into play.  But garbage BB concealment is a major "quality of life" detractor.  It's hard for you to not be spotted unless you're stupidly far away;  It gets harder for you to disengage and recover without being constantly shelled at long range because you got sh*t concealment, made worse by fires making your sh*t concealment even sh*ttier.  You'll also get spotted far away at the start of the match and every a$$h*le with long ranged guns on the map is getting easy pot shots at you.  You end up taking needless damage before you are even in your optimal fighting position you wanted to reach.

I've now been in a few matches with the Bismarck, and this is exactly what happens most of the time.  I'm on fire long before I even get in position.  It's very frustrating on top of learning a new ship.  Especially when you're doing poorly at learning said new ship!  I'm finding that I'm getting focus fired on more even in a group, and getting bailed out on a lot more when we are in a good position because I guess they figure I can handle it.  I just need to do better at reading the flow and if they bail on me, bail with them ASAP.

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4 hours ago, Psycodiver said:

Why not both? I did AFT, Manual secondaries, and CE

Eventually on German BBs you do get them both but you need at least an 18 point captain to get all of 3 of them which is not the easiest thing to do in the world when you are starting out.

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On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 2:16 AM, C6tom said:

Eventually on German BBs you do get them both but you need at least an 18 point captain to get all of 3 of them which is not the easiest thing to do in the world when you are starting out.

Basically this.
Bismarck does have competitive concealment with CE, but without a high pt captain of at least 18pts for 3x4pt skills, you have garbage concealment. 
Even so, there are ways to utilize the secondaries without actually having them firing. If people are aware of your presence and the secondaries, you can simply setup camp by a capture zone, and now people will be reluctant to push in. Without secondaries ever firing, you can zone out ships.

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The beauty of the torpedoes is not in their use so much as their threat...when things get close, other BBs must decide if they want to ram or just eat the torp sandwich...or, turn out by going broadside right in front of your guns at close range.  I've used Scharn and Gneis to down other BB by forcing just such a bad choice on them...usually using some terrain to get close.  With cruisers and DD, it's mostly just pray to RNG.  That said, the main guns are a HUGE let down for me.  Always have been.  Most folks are too smart to sail around in secondary range, particularly when they don't need to.  It's not hard to down a KM BB from 14km or so...they take damage from everything.  I've been holding off on getting FDG simply because Bismarck was so underwhelming for me.  Hell, I just spec'd out of MCSA...just supremely unimpressed.  

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Got killed today in my Bismarck yes I have a secondary build awesome ship this guy rams me for a kill yup with another Bismarck I just laughed we both died. Guess he was mad because I was punishing his ship mates lol secondary range now without the flag is just over 9k you gotta love her.

Edited by CaptDavid

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Bismarck, Tirpitz and Massachusetts are the only ships that have kept full secondary builds including manual secondaries and secondary range upgrade. 

I like the option of sneaking into position, and I like being able to disengage to heal up or simply escape from a bad position. 

I also like main gun accuracy. That’s what battleships are all about. 

I make these 3 exceptions because they are so much fun and work most of the time. 

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Normally, I incorporate CE even into my Secondaries Build BBs.  However, if you are featuring Secondaries, Manual Secondaries trait is very important for those guns to have accuracy. 

 

A little while ago, I was using Tirpitz in training room.  AFT & BFT traits, SBM2 upgrade installed.  No Manual Secondaries trait:

2fk1d4B.jpg

Look at that terrible scatter of the shells.  And that is against a humongous Battleship sized target, yet she struggles to hit at 9.3km.

 

Now I throw in my GK captain who has the Full Works:  BFT, AFT, Manual Secondaries, even IFHE.

kgQbY12.jpg

The Secondaries are much tighter, even at 9.9km compared to the 9.3km of the previous test.

 

If you are serious with Secondaries, you need Manual Secondaries to hit more and as a result, do more damage earlier.

On 7/30/2018 at 11:38 PM, fuller31 said:

I've now been in a few matches with the Bismarck, and this is exactly what happens most of the time.  I'm on fire long before I even get in position.  It's very frustrating on top of learning a new ship.  Especially when you're doing poorly at learning said new ship!  I'm finding that I'm getting focus fired on more even in a group, and getting bailed out on a lot more when we are in a good position because I guess they figure I can handle it.  I just need to do better at reading the flow and if they bail on me, bail with them ASAP.

As I said, it's a tough choice to make.  In the perfect world you'd have AFT + Manual Secondaries + CE for a more rounded build.  But you need a high points captain for that.  If you have a 14pt, you got hard choices to make.

 

My first Tier X BB was Yamato.  Long, LONG ago, early 2016 IIRC.  At the time, people believed her concealment was so bad compared to Montana, it was not worth it to dedicate to improving her concealment.

"Yamato gets spotted from the moon anyways, why bother?"

So I played many Yamato games with absolutely sh*t concealment.  I get spotted LONG before I'm anywhere near where I want to be for my fighting position.  Even worse if there's aircraft around.  I eat shells from long range Cruisers, other Battleships, taking damage, and I haven't even reached my fighting position.  By the time I arrive, I've lost at least 1/3 my HP and there's likely at least 1 fire burning.

 

Then I remember on the boards that someone said with a Stealth Build, Yamato's concealment is almost as good as Montana's.  I told the guy he was full of sh*t but he did a rough layout of the math and told me to check it myself.  He seemed correct.  I then committed to altering my build to feature CE trait + concealment camo + CSM1 upgrade, and 'lo and beyold, "Spot Yamato from the moon" had about 0.1 or 0.2 worse concealment than Montana, which was about at 13.4 or 13.5km.  Life became so much more easy, and I was eating less needless damage, doing better in controlling my engagements.

 

That is a big deal compared to 15km, 16km or some other garbage a.f. concealment.  Another factor with bad concealment on a BB is it becomes much harder to disengage if you are in big trouble.  Remember, if you are on fire, your concealment range gets worse.  So if you got some POS 15km+ concealment range, it takes longer to disengage as the required range to do so is much worse.

 

I have multiple Secondary Spec BBs ATM:  Republique, GK, Alsace, Bismarck, Tirpitz, FDG, Scharnhorst, Warspite, Massachusetts.  Of these, I have GK & Alsace without CE due to the incorporation of IFHE.  And I will tell you now, the secondaries will be buzzsaws against whatever they catch in range, but I dislike the discomfort of being spotted so far away by even a Cruiser, that when they do find you, they are already in ideal gun range to turn around, start kiting you, and spamming you with shells.  Then all the other guys, the other BBs, etc., then pour in.  My Republique is about 13.5km concealment, and someone has to push up much closer if they want to find my silent-running Brawling Battleship as it closes range.  Defensively, with 13.5km concealment, I can disengage much more easily.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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MFCSA is an absolute must for secondary-build BBs, and a Bismarck that isn't secondary build is a waste of a ship. On some ships, you can argue for or against secondary builds (French high-tier BBs, GK) but Bismarck and FDG are simply terrible without a secondary build. 

CE can be helpful on BBs. I use CE on my RN BBs, and on my USN BBs, because I can get concealment down enough to be able to reposition or heal easily. I personally don't use it on French BBs, but I know players that have gotten good results with concealment/survivability builds instead of secondary builds on French botes. I like to brawl too much for that; I can't take CE without giving up stuff I want more (on Alsace, I already use AFT, IFHE and MFCSA so can't take another 4-point skill, and on Republique I dont use IFHE but I use both BFT and Super from the 3-point tier, plus both AR and the turret traverse skill from the 2-point tier, so I can't fit another 4-point skill on there either.) But its viable. 

But MFCSA is the key component of a secondary build as the increase in accuracy is so dramatic that it's what makes those builds viable. You're better off giving up any other skill if you insist on taking CE with a secondary build. And, frankly, if you're playing Bismarck or FDG without a secondary build you must really not like being effective in battle.

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Just upgraded my Bismarck to the B hull setup for secondary's and AA 72000 HP OMG this ship is a %@%$ monster tested it out and destroyed everything in my path the game was over before I could use any hull repair consumables. All I can say is Damn...

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On 9/9/2018 at 5:05 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Normally, I incorporate CE even into my Secondaries Build BBs.  However, if you are featuring Secondaries, Manual Secondaries trait is very important for those guns to have accuracy. 

 

A little while ago, I was using Tirpitz in training room.  AFT & BFT traits, SBM2 upgrade installed.  No Manual Secondaries trait:

2fk1d4B.jpg

Look at that terrible scatter of the shells.  And that is against a humongous Battleship sized target, yet she struggles to hit at 9.3km.

 

Now I throw in my GK captain who has the Full Works:  BFT, AFT, Manual Secondaries, even IFHE.

kgQbY12.jpg

The Secondaries are much tighter, even at 9.9km compared to the 9.3km of the previous test.

 

If you are serious with Secondaries, you need Manual Secondaries to hit more and as a result, do more damage earlier.

As I said, it's a tough choice to make.  In the perfect world you'd have AFT + Manual Secondaries + CE for a more rounded build.  But you need a high points captain for that.  If you have a 14pt, you got hard choices to make.

 

My first Tier X BB was Yamato.  Long, LONG ago, early 2016 IIRC.  At the time, people believed her concealment was so bad compared to Montana, it was not worth it to dedicate to improving her concealment.

"Yamato gets spotted from the moon anyways, why bother?"

So I played many Yamato games with absolutely sh*t concealment.  I get spotted LONG before I'm anywhere near where I want to be for my fighting position.  Even worse if there's aircraft around.  I eat shells from long range Cruisers, other Battleships, taking damage, and I haven't even reached my fighting position.  By the time I arrive, I've lost at least 1/3 my HP and there's likely at least 1 fire burning.

 

Then I remember on the boards that someone said with a Stealth Build, Yamato's concealment is almost as good as Montana's.  I told the guy he was full of sh*t but he did a rough layout of the math and told me to check it myself.  He seemed correct.  I then committed to altering my build to feature CE trait + concealment camo + CSM1 upgrade, and 'lo and beyold, "Spot Yamato from the moon" had about 0.1 or 0.2 worse concealment than Montana, which was about at 13.4 or 13.5km.  Life became so much more easy, and I was eating less needless damage, doing better in controlling my engagements.

 

That is a big deal compared to 15km, 16km or some other garbage a.f. concealment.  Another factor with bad concealment on a BB is it becomes much harder to disengage if you are in big trouble.  Remember, if you are on fire, your concealment range gets worse.  So if you got some POS 15km+ concealment range, it takes longer to disengage as the required range to do so is much worse.

 

I have multiple Secondary Spec BBs ATM:  Republique, GK, Alsace, Bismarck, Tirpitz, FDG, Scharnhorst, Warspite, Massachusetts.  Of these, I have GK & Alsace without CE due to the incorporation of IFHE.  And I will tell you now, the secondaries will be buzzsaws against whatever they catch in range, but I dislike the discomfort of being spotted so far away by even a Cruiser, that when they do find you, they are already in ideal gun range to turn around, start kiting you, and spamming you with shells.  Then all the other guys, the other BBs, etc., then pour in.  My Republique is about 13.5km concealment, and someone has to push up much closer if they want to find my silent-running Brawling Battleship as it closes range.  Defensively, with 13.5km concealment, I can disengage much more easily.

A bit of a necro post, but I run secondary battery module, CE, and Manual secondaries on my 15 point bismark. I find I cannot sacrifice concealment for an extra meter of secondary range when im being pummeled at long range. Concealment ensures that the reds have to engage closer.

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4 hours ago, Drifter_X said:

A bit of a necro post, but I run secondary battery module, CE, and Manual secondaries on my 15 point bismark. I find I cannot sacrifice concealment for an extra meter of secondary range when im being pummeled at long range. Concealment ensures that the reds have to engage closer.

Yes, so you felt that experience also?  The match starts, maybe 2-3 minutes in and you're spotted from far away, and your team hasn't spotted any of the red ships yet?  Then suddenly you get 6 ships shooting at you because you are literally the only ship spotted by anyone across the entire godd*mn map.  Everybody had their guns loaded 30-32 seconds from the start of the game.  All they want is the first poor sonofab*tch to get spotted, and everyone unloads on you.

 

Mind you, many of those long range shots miss, but you still get hit when you get that many people firing at you even at those ranges.  Whether it's HE and setting fires on you, or some other BB fired AP and got some Penetration hits for good damage, or worse, Citadel hits on you from long range.  I can play something like Musashi and I've double-citadeled Missouris at 19, 20km or so ranges.  Low chances for me to get lucky like that, but when it happens to you at the start of the match, it puts your ship behind the power curve by eating so much early damage.

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19 hours ago, Drifter_X said:

A bit of a necro post, but I run secondary battery module, CE, and Manual secondaries on my 15 point Bismarck. I find I cannot sacrifice concealment for an extra meter of secondary range when im being pummeled at long range. Concealment ensures that the reds have to engage closer.

I would suggest consider adjusting your playstyle, 'cause I would wager you spend a lot of time in open water, correct?  Most concealment issues can be overcome by proper positioning, using island cover to your advantage, and understanding where the reds are.  Understand, too, that the point of brawling is to get close enough to use your secondaries, and you can't ever have enough concealment to fire your secondaries beyond your concealment range. 

I challenge you to play a ship without any concealment modifiers (except for camo).  That'll force you to use cover to your advantage, and it'll really help in the long run.

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5 hours ago, Ranari said:

I would suggest consider adjusting your playstyle, 'cause I would wager you spend a lot of time in open water, correct?  Most concealment issues can be overcome by proper positioning, using island cover to your advantage, and understanding where the reds are.  Understand, too, that the point of brawling is to get close enough to use your secondaries, and you can't ever have enough concealment to fire your secondaries beyond your concealment range. 

I challenge you to play a ship without any concealment modifiers (except for camo).  That'll force you to use cover to your advantage, and it'll really help in the long run.

There's lots and lots of maps in high tier that are wide open.  To the point that it affects USN Cruisers which need islands to survive.  If USN Cruisers that need islands can struggle to get cover, the BB will be just as worse off as it gets spotted from the moon with a poor detection range.  Everybody at high tier can keep shooting at you even if you are second or third line.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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16 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There's lots and lots of maps in high tier that are wide open.  To the point that it affects USN Cruisers which need islands to survive.  If USN Cruisers that need islands can struggle to get cover, the BB will be just as worse off as it gets spotted from the moon with a poor detection range.  Everybody at high tier can keep shooting at you even if you are second or third line.

Yes, but the only map that is completely wide open is Oceans. 

The point of the challenge isn't to prove that concealment is overrated.  Far from it, in fact.  The point of the challenge is to force you to think outside the box and use the map to your advantage.  There are lots of places in maps where you can shield yourself from enemy fire.  Cruiser players do it all the time.  It's rather hard to explain, but I noticed that because most battleship play is fairly conservative in nature ('cause torpedoes), it's often a player's first instinct to start hightailing it in the other direction straight into open water once they feel some pressure.  That's like a positive feedback loop for needing concealment. 

The challenge removes that option as a solution to the pressure problem.  You can't fall back into open water, so what are your options?  You will need to think ahead, consider your positioning, find cover, and determine how many targets can shoot at you from that angle.  Yeah, it's hard as heck, but it does improve your decision making, and you would be surprised to find that concealment is actually not as necessary as players think it is. 

Also, I wouldn't recommend anything I don't do myself.  I play my brawling Montana with 17.3km detection range.  Yep, I'm visible from the moon.  I do get shot at from across the map.  It is definitely annoying to have cruisers flinging HE poo at you from afar.  But, it forces me to use terrain to my advantage. 

On a humorous side note...just something I've observed doing this.  Because they're all focusing me from range, they're all giving their position away to my team lol.

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