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BenAubrey

Why don't Co-ops help prepare you for randoms?

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The tactics for Co-ops don't help prepare you for randoms....why is that?  Seems strange to me.  It encourages aggressiveness which doesn't serve you well most of the time as  you climb the tier later.   The bot ships "auto turn" the moment you fire torps...as though they had constant radar.....which makes the target torp assist spotter worthless....   Just don't get it!

Edited by BenAubrey
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  • Ignore the stats, play the game, lose, get mad, move on. If it gets worse, go on hiatus for a bit then come back. Bots are bots, don't compare them to humans. Personally I find human players to be easier to predict than bots so I prefer to fight them.
  • If I play PvE, I don't take things seriously so I just play at full speed and agressive
  • When I play PvP, I take my time and I find my enemies and then decide on the correct course of action
Edited by Vangm94
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Co-Op Doesn't have the Human Factor, Bots don't keep track of Stats or Credits and EXP.

The Bots will come to you for Battle, Human Players are Not as predictable. " Cowardice, Fearlessness, Bad Decisions, Good Decisions,"

Two different Games within one Title

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  • I also find that I prefer human players when I play Ryujo because it is much easier
    • Bots know how to evade my torpedo drops, humans not so much

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@BenAubrey With 2500 + battles done I would think you would only use co op for a fun pass time as I do and I have way more than 2500 battles. Co op prepares new players for random only as best they allow it to. Practice with a new ship, learn its strengths and weaknesses and how to aim the guns and torpedoes. Yes the lower tiers are rather easy but the higher tiers do offer more of a challenge. Could the AI bots be programmed to be less predictable? Sure but so far the Devs have not felt the need to do that!  

My total battle count is over 9750 and I still enjoy co op and use it as I stated above.

Edited by CAPTMUDDXX

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Co-op has it's uses especially for new players just to get the basics down. Leading ships.  TORPING......how to. This is a biggie. Not the real thing like random but just think of it as a practice ground.  The wake-up call comes when you go into random but at least a player knows some things.  Like W key makes your ship go! I think it's a good thing and I play it a lot just for fun.

Edited by dmckay

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The only thing COOP is good for regarding as practice for randoms is learning where to shoot various ships. In randoms players react much differently generally making them harder to shoot. Bots don't wiggle around like players do. Bots are predictable, players not so much.

Edited by xalmgrey
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2 minutes ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

@BenAubrey With 2500 + battles done I would think you would only use co op for a fun pass time as I do and I have way more than 2500 battles. Co op prepares new players for random only as best they allow it to. Practice with a new ship, learn its strengths and weaknesses and how to aim the guns and torpedoes. Yes the lower tiers are rather easy but the higher tiers do offer more of a challenge. Could the AI bots be programmed to be less predictable? Sure but so far the Devs have not felt the need to do that!  

I agree.  Also I always take a new ship into co-op first just to get the feel for it. Many players do this.

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No sane BB driver is going to cap like a bot does right off the bat, for starters.

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12 minutes ago, BenAubrey said:

The tactics for Co-ops don't help prepare you for randoms....why is that?  Seems strange to me.  It encourages aggressiveness which doesn't serve you well most of the time as  you climb the tier later.   The bot ships "auto turn" the moment you fire torps...as though they had constant radar.....which makes the target torp assist spotter worthless....   Just don't get it!

Think of the Bots as Jason from the Friday the 13th movies, just strait ahead with murderous intent. They are unthinking....the human players are just harder. When was the last time you saw a BOT angle his ship? It is like the old days on the Sega Genesis, I could beat the computer 180-0...the first time I played a good human player I got SMASHED. 

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Bots in this type of game with a large map, armor/pen considerations, firing angle/time on target, consumables, and so on can't prepare you for how a human player operates. In particular bots tend to only rush B and mindlessly advance, while a human player may set a trap with backup or flank.

The best and only way to improve specifically against other players is to play against them. We all sucked at one point and not everyone can average 100k damage.

It's often better to do things that benefit your team indirectly if you can't directly sink the enemy. Things like intentionally throwing torps in an avoidable direction to force an enemy to go broadside, going for an uncontested cap or spotting, or firing HE onto an angled BB to draw their attention away from a teammate low on HP. 

Try different things. Read the wiki. Watch gameplay.

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1 minute ago, Belthorian said:

Think of the Bots as Jason from the Friday the 13th movies, just strait ahead with murderous intent. They are unthinking....the human players are just harder. When was the last time you saw a BOT angle his ship? It is like the old days on the Sega Genesis, I could beat the computer 180-0...the first time I played a good human player I got SMASHED. 

Heh.  Ya. But ya know I have been on lots of teams in random that play worse than bots in co-op. Aiming is an example.  Bots are deadly at aiming.  Many living players are not. 

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I have noticed that the AI in Training Rooms can be quite a bit more "human" than anything found in Coop, which suggests that the coding for a smarter AI exists, but has not been implemented in Coop? I consider Coop more of a "here is how this game works, you press this to fire that, use this to do that" at least for the first few tiers. Maybe a more complex AI would not be a bad idea for mid and high tier Coop? Training rooms have (I think) several different AI difficulty levels, so it does seem possible.

Respects,

Am

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2 minutes ago, Amracil said:

I have noticed that the AI in Training Rooms can be quite a bit more "human" than anything found in Coop, which suggests that the coding for a smarter AI exists, but has not been implemented in Coop? I consider Coop more of a "here is how this game works, you press this to fire that, use this to do that" at least for the first few tiers. Maybe a more complex AI would not be a bad idea for mid and high tier Coop? Training rooms have (I think) several different AI difficulty levels, so it does seem possible.

Respects,

Am

I have noticed that bot ships will stop dead and then back up now. I don't recall them using that maneuver until lately. I may be wrong but I don't recall that but they do it now. Also DDs do now wiggle to some degree.  I don't recall them doing that either until recently.

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Actually....

Random DRIVES people into Co-Op....

Folks need to calm down a little at first.

Often times, they are wearing that attractive hot-pink color.

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37 minutes ago, Vangm94 said:
  • I also find that I prefer human players when I play Ryujo because it is much easier
    • Bots know how to evade my torpedo drops, humans not so much

I’m the opposite. I find bots easier to torp than human players, especially if I’m driving a carrier. (In destroyers I just get crazy close under cover, and nuke the bot point blank so it can’t evade.)

26 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Heh.  Ya. But ya know I have been on lots of teams in random that play worse than bots in co-op. Aiming is an example.  Bots are deadly at aiming.  Many living players are not. 

Sad but true. Bot at least sorta fight with a purpose, and sorta kinda prioritize the right targets, (though sometimes not very intelligently... Low health BB about to kill bot CV; bot CV sends aircraft across the map to attack the ‘higher priority’ destroyer;) I’ve seem human teams with all the sense of purpose and coordination of a sack of marbles dumped out on a freshly waxed gym floor.

18 minutes ago, dmckay said:

I have noticed that bot ships will stop dead and then back up now. I don't recall them using that maneuver until lately. I may be wrong but I don't recall that but they do it now. Also DDs do now wiggle to some degree.  I don't recall them doing that either until recently.

What drives me insane of late is how you will move to intercept a bot going around an island, and it will immediately change course and try to go the other way.

Need to drop a rabid weasel down the pants of whoever came up with that little programming gem.

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I mostly use Co-op battles as a way to test out the gunnery on a new ship, figure out lead times amd such. That way I can be more effective in Randoms.

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1 minute ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

I’m the opposite. I find bots easier to torp than human players, especially if I’m driving a carrier. (In destroyers I just get crazy close under cover, and nuke the bot point blank so it can’t evade.)

Sad but true. Bot at least sorta fight with a purpose, and sorta kinda prioritize the right targets, (though sometimes not very intelligently... Low health BB about to kill bot CV; bot CV sends aircraft across the map to attack the ‘higher priority’ destroyer;) I’ve seem human teams with all the sense of purpose and coordination of a sack of marbles dumped out on a freshly waxed gym floor.

What drives me insane of late is how you will move to intercept a bot going around an island, and it will immediately change course and try to go the other way.

Need to drop a rabid weasel down the pants of whoever came up with that little programming gem.

  • Bots know how to stop moving, most humans don't. If you watch my Operation Videos, I play horrible.

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Co-op does educate in some ways: learning how to aim and handle your ship.  But it doesn't educate in others:

  1. Bots are generally predictable and obsessive.
  2. Because bots are predictable (and non-predictive), map understanding and positioning is not as important in Co-op so many ignore the skill.
  3. Unlike bots, human players (well, many human players) can find and exploit weak spots, and try to bypass strong spots.  Notably, through flanking.
  4. Winning most of the time doesn't prepare you for the salt and grief engendered by losing half the time.
  5. Bots aren't stupid.  Human players can be amazingly stupid.  In Randoms there are a lot more humans.

I still like and play Co-op, but I'm so glad that I play and played a lot of Random to prepare me for it.

 

Edited by iDuckman
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The bot AI is way worse than decent human players.

I've played and screwed around in coop often and still never had any problems winning.

Basically it's because the AI is... well, programmed and it's programmed to basically do:

  • go straight forward all game towards nearest enemy ship
    • and continue rushing that ship until you get very close if not ram
  • shoot at that ship immediately
  • not use consumables intelligently
  • shoot based on proximity, not "should you shoot this target?"

Humans are significantly more complex. bots don't punish mistakes and make them continuously. Even decent players will punish your mistakes.

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14 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Bot at least sorta fight with a purpose, and sorta kinda prioritize the right targets, (though sometimes not very intelligently.

I have just begun to play Langley, and I find that in co-op, the bot Langley will always send his planes directly to attack me, wherever I am (unspotted!).  I send my own bombers to hit whatever bot BB shows up first, but I have realized that I need to keep my fighters in the middle to intercept the incoming bot CV snipe.

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  • Bot players go one way
  • Human players
    • Do the opposite of the opposite of the opposite of the opposite opposite of the opposite of what your opponent will do
    • Or get intel on the enemy and decimate them

I stopped playing CooP during or after CBT and I have been only playing Random since. So I am unable to go back to CooP, mostly because I don't take it serious and because I can't "CV like normal" with bots.

  • Bots will turn and stop... away from torpedo strikes
  • Humans will turn and race my torpedoes

That for me is the only difference I need to stay in Random.

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Just now, Vangm94 said:
  • So I am unable to go back to CooP, mostly because I don't take it serious and because I can't "CV like normal" with bots.

I like to do things like "do not use main battery" or other fun challenges in coop from time to time :)

 

that one is fun with tirpitz or Mass haha.

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Should be fairly easy to program camping BB, yolo DD and broadside blap! cruisers 

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1 minute ago, enderland07 said:

I like to do things like "do not use main battery" or other fun challenges in coop from time to time :)

 

that one is fun with tirpitz or Mass haha.

I'd just end up getting torped. :cap_fainting:I got 27 Secondary Kills in Ryujo in Random for a reason :cap_viking:

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