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Lert

British S / T class destroyers and their Dutch service

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So I came across this image:

cqyopfS.png

With a caption claiming these were the Dutch destroyers Tjerk Hiddes and Piet Hein, ca 1947.

Now I recognize the Tjerk Hiddes, pictured on the left with the double gun turrets, it's the ex-HMS Nonpareil, sold to the Dutch and named Tjerk Hiddes, only to later be sold to the Indonesian navy as Gadjah Mada. But I was not aware of a destroyer called Piet Hein in Dutch service in 1947. The last Piet Hein I know of was an Admiralen class, sunk in 1942:

34goi8w.jpg

And the guided missile frigate of the Kortenaer class, launched in 1978:

9WePjGw.jpg

So I looked up the combination of the name 'Piet Hein' and the hull number JT4.

Turns out that besides the N-class HMS Nonpareil the Dutch navy bought a number of British S / T class destroyers as well:

  • HMS Serapis (Renamed Piet Hein)
  • HMS Scourge (Renamed Evertsen)
  • HMS Scorpion (Renamed Kortenaer)

sSjsAaI.jpg

HMS Serapis

N8thlK0.jpg

HMS Scorpion

yhUPSTj.jpg

HMS Scourge, wearing its best ORP Błyskawica cosplay

These were originally mid-war, mid-sized destroyers launched in 1942 and 1943, for the purpose of serving as fleet and convoy escorts. Measuring 1840 ton full load and with a top speed of 36.75 knots, they carried an armament of 4 single 120mm guns and 2 quad-barrel 533mm torpedo launchers, making them more torpedo boats than gunboats.

I find it interesting that the S / T class has not been chosen to be included in the upcoming RNDD line.

In game they would represent a decent T6 ship, being a slightly improved design over the earlier A-class, that is included in the line at T5 as Acasta. However, the British already have HMS Gallant at tier 6 (I still find it curious that we got Gallant, and not Glowworm) so to avoid conflict we'd have to introduce one of these as T6 ships for the Dutch under their Dutch name. But then, I'd much rather have an actual Dutch design in the game, namely the Admiralen class Witte de With, so that's not really a solution either.

So what about the S / T class destroyers? Do they not have a place in this game?

Maybe. I don't know. Maybe downtune Witte de With a bit and put it at T5, then enter one of these at T6 for the Dutch. Maybe retire Gallant and introduce one of these at T6 for the British. But, honestly, though I quite like the design I think these venerable war horses are a bit superfluous for this game.

So why write this thread then? Eh, I was bored and wanted to post about a ship that deserves some discussion at least.

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interesting nugget there, keep digging Lert, maybe some brass, maybe some gold.

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There's a lot of possible solutions for these "forgotten" British destroyers.  One of the most obvious things that could happen would be dividing the British destroyers into two distinct lines -- a torpedo line and a gunship line.  It's not beyond the realm of possibility -- even as a half-tree like the Soviet and Japanese destroyers.  The other options would be to cannibalize the various remaining destroyers and use them to help populate other tech trees in the same manner as the Pan Asian line was done.  This (to me) seems like the best solution Wargaming could undertake.  Between Poland, Dutch, Commonwealth and possibly a Pan European line, British destroyer designs could help flesh out obvious gaps in these research trees.

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34 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

The other options would be to cannibalize the various remaining destroyers and use them to help populate other tech trees in the same manner as the Pan Asian line was done.  This (to me) seems like the best solution Wargaming could undertake.  Between Poland, Dutch, Commonwealth and possibly a Pan European line, British destroyer designs could help flesh out obvious gaps in these research trees.

I really like this idea, it would help populate less-than-complete destroyer lines with historical, built-in-steel ships.

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55 minutes ago, Lert said:

In game they would represent a decent T6 ship, being a slightly improved design over the earlier A-class, that is included in the line at T5 as Acasta. However, the British already have HMS Gallant at tier 6 (I still find it curious that we got Gallant, and not Glowworm) so to avoid conflict we'd have to introduce one of these as T6 ships for the Dutch under their Dutch name. But then, I'd much rather have an actual Dutch design in the game, namely the Admiralen class Witte de With, so that's not really a solution either.

Queue "Why not both?" gif.  I mean, Gallant is a premium, so no need to worry about competition in the T6 RN DD line, and it's not like we don't have clone ships flying more than one national flag. 

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3 minutes ago, Lert said:

I really like this idea, it would help populate less-than-complete destroyer lines with historical, built-in-steel ships.

I don't understand the need to push a line to Tier 10 if it didn't have built-in-steel ships to that level anyways.  I'm perfectly happy with a flyout line that only covers certain tiers (5 - 8, for example).

s3xG3mV.jpg

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1 minute ago, Fishrokk said:

I don't understand the need to push a line to Tier 10 if it didn't have built-in-steel ships to that level anyways.  I'm perfectly happy with a flyout line that only covers certain tiers (5 - 8, for example).

That works for side trees, not for main trees. Having a T10 gives people something to work towards. There will always be people who think "Why would I bother with that line if I don't get an end tier ship from it".

Fortunately there are candidates for a T10 Dutch DD and a T10 Dutch CA.

Unfortunately the candidate for Dutch T10 DD doesn't have torpedoes and is a pure gunboat, and a possible Dutch T10 CA candidate is a paper design ...

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12 minutes ago, Lert said:

That works for side trees, not for main trees.

I should have been clearer - this is what I meant. 

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2 hours ago, Lert said:

I find it interesting that the S / T class has not been chosen to be included in the upcoming RNDD line.

I suspect the I-class, Icarus having similarities with Gallant was a factor. I also wonder if WG wanted specifically a 10-torpedo ship which the I-class (and Glowworm) out of all the Interwar Standard and War Emergency program classes had. They then stay at 10 torpedoes with Jervis, though Lightning's an odd choice at T8 in that regard.

With Icarus they at least saved modelling new guns while I don't think the improved mountings on the S-class are in-game already.

I think the S is easier to make a T6 than a T7. You could readily trade a little bit of concealment and handling for the better HP, AA(heh) and 360' rotation on the 3rd turret. Making her T7 seems a stretch to me. She's demonstrably inferior to Jervis, though Jervis currently looks like a shallow imitation of Gadjah Mada. 

The other non-British S-class with a real claim to fame would be HMNoS Stord which fought alongside a gaggle of British S-class during the attack on Scharnhorst.

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2 minutes ago, mofton said:

The other non-British S-class with a real claim to fame would be HMNoS Stord which fought alongside a gaggle of British S-class during the attack on Scharnhorst.

Ex-HMS Success, transferred to the Norwegian navy during the war in 1943 instead of right after the war in the case of the Dutch S-classes.

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Personally, I see these ships more as a T7. Larger than Gallant, but able to take a few more hits, and likely the concealment wouldn't be much worse, if at all. Aside from those two aspects, it is really just an all around improvement on the interwar standard like Gallant. Especially if they receive 10km Mk.IX torpedoes as I would hope. Sure, they could make it at tier 6 as well, but I don't see much need or use for them there. 

I would have preferred to see HMS Scorpion as the T7 regular RN DD, as the lead of the class, with the option for a premium HMS Saumarez at some point, as Saumarez has quite a respectable war record. I would likely think Stord would end up in game too, algonside one of the Dutch trio further down along the line. 

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In terms of the S-class as a premium RN DD, HMS Savage with the 1x2 and 2x1 4.5 inch guns would make an interesting option for tier 7 while being a pretty good trainer for the tech tree T9 and 10

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