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_Iku

RN DDs might not have speed boost

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so incase anyone hasn't seen
Royal navy DDs won't have Speed boost and it's not being replaced
basically Royal navy DDs are going to be a [edited] to everything hell even the japanese make these look bad  :v

 

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Edited by _Iku

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It sounds like they're setting them up to be a cap contester that doesn't venture off alone. If they continue along this route, I imagine they'll be cap Kings. I would likely be interested.

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I don't sweat the lack of speed boost, honestly.  It's only really there to get you out of trouble, but it looks like the RN DDs will have enough other tools to help get them by anyway.

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I'm not particularly pleased with this decision, but I'm going to hold fire and wait to see what happens when they get out in testing in the hands of people who can talk about them and show them off. 

15 minutes ago, cometguy said:

It sounds like they're setting them up to be a cap contester that doesn't venture off alone.

Not necessarily a dedicated cap contester (though you could well be right), but perhaps a fleet destroyer that stays with its big ships and supports them by spotting & attacking enemy DDs and making supportive torpedo attacks against enemy battleships to take the heat away from their own battlewagons at critical moments. The solo YOLO double-kraken games with obscene damage figures are going to be in the hands of true super-unicums or seriously dedicated destroyer mains who know how to milk every advantage out of them.

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Just now, cometguy said:

It sounds like they're setting them up to be a cap contester that doesn't venture off alone. If they continue along this route, I imagine they'll be cap Kings. I would likely be interested.

I completely disagree with you on that.  Cap contesting really isn't what it used to be with the proliferation of radar.  Without speed boost running away from radar that is defending the cap, or other DDs with backup, is going to be much harder, and the RN DDs aren't particularly fast as is.  Only the high tier DDs get usable torps but that will have to take IFHE to get the guns to pen.  The lower tier ships have slow turret traverse, supper floaty shells, short ranged torps.  The only thing these ships get in return is a weak hydro.  

Just now, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I'm not particularly pleased with this decision, but I'm going to hold fire and wait to see what happens when they get out in testing in the hands of people who can talk about them and show them off. 

I think a great time to voice concern is at the beginning stages, before things get too far along.  At this point I have very little hope for these ships in their current form.

Just now, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Not necessarily a dedicated cap contester (though you could well be right), but perhaps a fleet destroyer that stays with its big ships and supports them by spotting & attacking enemy DDs and making supportive torpedo attacks against enemy battleships to take the heat away from their own battlewagons at critical moments.

You might be right about the design intent, WG said these are defensive DDs.  This role doesn't exist in the game for a reason, on one wants to play that role.  There's nothing stopping anyone from playing that way now, and people don't because it's not fun for most people, and it doesn't pay.  

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6 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I completely disagree with you on that.  Cap contesting really isn't what it used to be with the proliferation of radar.  Without speed boost running away from radar that is defending the cap, or other DDs with backup, is going to be much harder, and the RN DDs aren't particularly fast as is.  Only the high tier DDs get usable torps but that will have to take IFHE to get the guns to pen.  The lower tier ships have slow turret traverse, supper floaty shells, short ranged torps.  The only thing these ships get in return is a weak hydro.

I agree that cap contesting isn't what it used to be, but it looks like the RN DDs will be well suited to do what cap contesting has become. Every DD has to deal with radar in caps, but hydro, and good concealment will allow it to out last most other destroyers in the interim.

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2 minutes ago, cometguy said:

I agree that cap contesting isn't what it used to be, but it looks like the RN DDs will be well suited to do what cap contesting has become. Every DD has to deal with radar in caps, but hydro, and good concealment will allow it to out last most other destroyers in the interim.

Consealment doesn’t mean much with RPF. People will light them just like they do other stealth DDs or torp them by firing on the indicator. 

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1 minute ago, HazardDrake said:

Consealment doesn’t mean much with RPF. People will light them just like they do other stealth DDs or torp them by firing on the indicator. 

I don't see rpf being an issue for them though. Hydro to avoid torps, good concealment to spot first. Plus, if you hug the near edge of the cap circle, they'll have to push in so far to spot you, that they'll be focused down so fast. Radar will always be an issue, but again, just stay near the friendly edge of the cap, and away from areas where enemy radar ships can sneak up on the cap.

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51 minutes ago, cometguy said:

It sounds like they're setting them up to be a cap contester that doesn't venture off alone. If they continue along this route, I imagine they'll be cap Kings. I would likely be interested.

No dd is a cap king in world of radar.

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It hurts, it makes very little sense to decide that ships which have a base speed as good as Aigle (which gets 20% speed boost instead of 8%) are 'slow' and thus get no speed boost.

Speed boost is useful for cap contesting, it lets you get there in time at least! As it is a Z-52 can do 40.5kt to a cap while Daring say does 35kt. Oh and the Z-52 can do that while using a 5.9km hydro which rather nullifies any stealth advantage. Engine boost for the acceleration is also useful when inside your smoke to dodge.

If you want to be a 'fleet protector' you need the speed to get into position ahead of the fleet, maneuver and regain position, that's rather tricky.

 

This cannot be balanced. When people say 'nerf RN BB' they don't really mean to nerf all of them, Queen Elizabeth and Monarch for instance are poor ships, undeserving of a nerf. By taking the speed boost from the T2-T5 you can't even say that the rubbish hydro is so good it's such a great trade that they're balanced.

Icarus is Gallant, but with slower reloading, slower swimming pentad torpedoes instead of quad tubes which you can't stealth torp as they have 6km range. She also has less HP. Now she can only take the world's most useless hydro acoustic instead of speed boost. How is that balanced?

Jervis is Gadjah, but with 6km instead of 8km torps, worse gun angles, worse concealment(?!), worse smoke.... now forced to take the same rubbish hydro while GM gets the more useful speed boost. Great.

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1 minute ago, Velled said:

No dd is a cap king in world of radar.

Nah, they're more cap emperor, as being able to do so is so much more powerful in a time when so many think it is impossible.

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Seeing speed boost taken from UK DD's with nothing given in return was the dumbest thing I have ever read but then I saw they were nerfing the Nassau but not the Belerophon so I can see they are going full [edited].

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I will reserve my judgement for more information but I am not impressed. It seems like WG idea of "cap contesting" and "knife fighter" is an antiquated notion. Sure there are instances where this will happen, 2 lone DD's, fighting over a cap, then there is an advantage, but in this current meta that seems to hardly ever happen. You might have the gun advantage and concealment, that means nothing when the other team has radar, then your too slow to get away.

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5 minutes ago, cometguy said:

I don't see rpf being an issue for them though. Hydro to avoid torps, good concealment to spot first. Plus, if you hug the near edge of the cap circle, they'll have to push in so far to spot you, that they'll be focused down so fast. Radar will always be an issue, but again, just stay near the friendly edge of the cap, and away from areas where enemy radar ships can sneak up on the cap.

Yea that’s not gonna work. People do that already and radar still screws them over. Stay away from areas that radar ships can sneak up on? That requires staying away from caps altogether. The only map I am aware of where caps can’t be reliably radared from behind an island is Islands of Ice and that’s only because the caps are so big.

Stealth DDs still get driven from caps by less stealthy DDs. Ships with hydro still get torped. 

Gonna be interesting to see what WG does. 

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1 hour ago, Slimeball91 said:

it's not fun for most people, and it doesn't pay.

Doesn't pay in what way? In blowout games with huge XP and cash hauls? Over the long haul, doing things that boost the win rate might pay more than standout jackpots. But we will see. 

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2 hours ago, cometguy said:

It sounds like they're setting them up to be a cap contester that doesn't venture off alone. If they continue along this route, I imagine they'll be cap Kings. I would likely be interested.

How do you figure? What do they have currently that leads you to this conclusion. They have terrible torps, worse than USN gun arcs, low use AP, will require IFHE, anemic hydro, slow, no speed boost, no AA....

Unless there is some change to how the game is played between now and launch they are designing ships for a game we aren't playing yet.

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1 minute ago, Canadatron said:

How do you figure? What do they have currently that leads you to this conclusion. They have terrible torps, worse than USN gun arcs, low use AP, will require IFHE, anemic hydro, slow, no speed boost, no AA....

Unless there is some change to how the game is played between now and launch they are designing ships for a game we aren't playing yet.

Based on the way the game is shaping up these days, it seems like capping is all about who can take the longest to detect, and avoid torpedoes. Everyone is equally disadvantaged while radar is active, but who can get in there and hold out the rest of the time? Ships with low detection and hydro.

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1 minute ago, Canadatron said:

How do you figure? What do they have currently that leads you to this conclusion. They have terrible torps, worse than USN gun arcs, low use AP, will require IFHE, anemic hydro, slow, no speed boost, no AA....

Unless there is some change to how the game is played between now and launch they are designing ships for a game we aren't playing yet.

Gotta agree with this, and most of what is being said above; these ships are only going to fill the role of "TARGET" if they're released as is. "CAP CONTESTERS?" , I think not, as radar can cover an entire cap in most cases and these ships have neither the armor or guns to fight it out nor the speed to run away. "FLEET PROTECTORS", how are you going to protect the fleet when most other DDs can just run away from you? Unless these ships are going to be given some really great new mechanic, like torps that home in on ships with hydro or missiles that home in on radar, they are destined to spend most games at the bottom of the ocean.

And yet, in an amazing and ironic coincidence, Russian DDs are getting a buff ... so their guns are more effective against opposing DDs; go figure.

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Just now, cometguy said:

Based on the way the game is shaping up these days, it seems like capping is all about who can take the longest to detect, and avoid torpedoes. Everyone is equally disadvantaged while radar is active, but who can get in there and hold out the rest of the time? Ships with low detection and hydro.

Or the more skilled DD....

I wreck people with much faster traverse, hydro and better conceal on a consistent basis. I am a DD guy. Z-52 has usable hydro, the RN is a defensive hydro. Have you used it yet? I have...

The hydro is essentially the same as taking Vigilance when it comes to torps, and you're still going to struggle spotting something with better hydro in that smoke (Z-52 for example) its little more than a bit beyond assured spotting.

I'm just not seeing the advantages to this line so far. It's a whole line of Sims and the game stinks for that ship when it isn't a T7 ranked match.

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7 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Based on the way the game is shaping up these days....

Yeah, like a hot pile of garbage for ship types that begin with the letter D. This is furthering my concern for this line of ships.

Only mouthbreathers get caught with torps, especially in smoke. If you get nailed in smoke by torps, that's on you and you should have expected it, and feel bad. Like that crapper Nicholas I dumpstered in his smoke with torps last night for example. You sit, you die.

Smoke is near useless for a DD now in randumbs. Between non spotting team mates, radar, and torps you barely get any utility from smoke. It's a risk with almost no rewards now beyond dropping it to block LoS while you flee. 

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2 minutes ago, Canadatron said:

Or the more skilled DD....

I wreck people with much faster traverse, hydro and better conceal on a consistent basis. I am a DD guy. Z-52 has usable hydro, the RN is a defensive hydro. Have you used it yet? I have...

The hydro is essentially the same as taking Vigilance when it comes to torps, and you're still going to struggle spotting something with better hydro in that smoke (Z-52 for example) its little more than a bit beyond assured spotting.

I'm just not seeing the advantages to this line so far. It's a whole line of Sims and the game stinks for that ship when it isn't a T7 ranked match.

It's all situational. If the cap doesn't have ships around it, then ya, you're right. But if they do, then I'm pretty sure the z52's hydro range doesn't reach it's detection range. So you'd have to push in deep, and smoke up. But have you been keeping track of the radar cool downs? You're in deep now, what's the exit plan?

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1 minute ago, Canadatron said:

Yeah, like a hot pile of garbage for ship types that begin with the letter D. This is furthering my concern for this line of ships.

Only mouthbreathers get caught with torps, especially in smoke. If you get nailed in smoke by torps, that's on you and you should have expected it, and feel bad. Like that crapper Nicholas I dumpstered in his smoke with torps last night for example. You sit, you die.

Smoke is near useless for a DD now in randumbs. Between non spotting team mates, radar, and torps you barely get any utility from smoke. It's a risk with almost no rewards now beyond dropping it to block LoS while you flee. 

I agree with all of that. Now the fact that the Germans have weak smoke doesn't matter very much, but are still balanced around the world where that was a drawback. I'll take it. :Smile_Default:

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18 minutes ago, cometguy said:

It's all situational. If the cap doesn't have ships around it, then ya, you're right. But if they do, then I'm pretty sure the z52's hydro range doesn't reach it's detection range. So you'd have to push in deep, and smoke up. But have you been keeping track of the radar cool downs? You're in deep now, what's the exit plan?

Z-52 will light these up with its Hydro if they keep the detection levels where they are currently.

You said it yourself. What's the exit plan? You're in deep in a ship with no boost, stubby hydro, middling speed... is the idea to yolo strike then go glub?

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16 minutes ago, Canadatron said:

Z-52 will light these up with its Hydro if they keep the detection levels where they are currently.

You said it yourself. What's the exit plan? You're in deep in a ship with no boost, stubby hydro, middling speed... is the idea to yolo strike then go glub?

My plan for capping so long as radar is the way it is, is to sit at the very edge of the friendly side of the cap, with my bow pointed to safety, so at the first sign of trouble, I bounce. I also don't enter the cap to begin with unless there's decent information on the location of radar ships, and there's friendlies nearby to prevent hostiles from giving much chase.

Edited by cometguy

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Right now there is nothing that the RN DDs have that another DD doesn't already do better.  They're not even good 'jack-of-all-trades' ships, since the USN DDs are better than the RN DDs in almost every way.  The hydro is so short-ranged that the only time it could ever see use is if the RN DD pushes another DDs smoke, but they're too slow to reliably do that without being severely punished the moment they are spotted.  I honestly don't see how Wargaming could design these ships with their current stats, and not realize they made them worse than any other DD line.

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