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Shad0wFiend

Concealment expert

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Given that concealment expert is a requirement for almost all ships, should that skill be removed and its bonus baked into all ships base stats? I think so as it makes no sense to have it be a highly recommended skill for something like 90% of the ships out there. At that point it ceases being a choice and becomes required. A required skill is something that should be baked into the ship. I also feel that way about the concealment module. In truth how many ships do you run without that module? 

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By that logic you might as well get rid of it entirely rather than "bake" it into the stats of all existing vessels. Concealment expert is effectively useless once you start firing your guns, it only really works when you're trying to avoid detection. I don't think this skill is a problem in the least.

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10 minutes ago, Cruiser_StLouis said:

By that logic you might as well get rid of it entirely rather than "bake" it into the stats of all existing vessels.

This. Also: it would make one of the special skills of Halsey useless since you can get extra concealment for every double strike.

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32 minutes ago, Cruiser_StLouis said:

By that logic you might as well get rid of it entirely rather than "bake" it into the stats of all existing vessels. Concealment expert is effectively useless once you start firing your guns, it only really works when you're trying to avoid detection. I don't think this skill is a problem in the least.

I wouldn't mind a counter skill like "Identification expert" that is equal and opposite of CE.

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9 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

I wouldn't mind a counter skill like "Identification expert" that is equal and opposite of CE.

I like this but DDs would flip over this (heck I can't play DDs past T7 because of radar)

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I have always felt that certain commander skills should be class specific.

Concealment expert and last stand for DDs

Demo expert and RPF for cruisers

Adrenalin rush, expert loader for BBs.

CVs already have class specific skills.

This way the concealment would really matter to DDs and it is absurd that BBs can out stealth cruisers.

 

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6 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

I like this but DDs would flip over this (heck I can't play DDs past T7 because of radar)

Ya they would but giving access to a skill like that would be a start to allowing a reduction/nerf to radar.

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45 minutes ago, Erebthoron said:

This. Also: it would make one of the special skills of Halsey useless since you can get extra concealment for every double strike.

That particular skill is passive and would still work if you got rid of concealment expert.... just because CE is gone, doesn't mean concealment as a whole is gone in the game... :fish_boom:

Edited by Ducky_shot

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29 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

I like this but DDs would flip over this (heck I can't play DDs past T7 because of radar)

Radar is NOT the problem.  Learn to play with the radar.  You find ways of beating it.  Not that hard.

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I agree.  Concealment Expert should probably just be removed from the game.  As the original post notes, it's seen as near-mandatory for almost every ship, which is a pretty obvious indicator that it's simply overpowered compared to other captain skills.  It's a big barrier to entry for new players (especially new players trying DD's) because you're at a huge disadvantage if you don't have it yet.  This makes it a big element in seal clubbing.

Also, the way it's implemented is stupid.  It should not be more effective for BB's than it is for cruisers.  The fact it allows some BB's to achieve cruiser-equivalent concealment is just obnoxious.  60,000 ton battleships should not be getting their concealment down to 12 km.

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44 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

I wouldn't mind a counter skill like "Identification expert" that is equal and opposite of CE.

And I would like to get rid of the built in cheat that tells you when your detected, therefore screwing every stealth ship in the game.

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48 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

I like this but DDs would flip over this (heck I can't play DDs past T7 because of radar)

Lol DDs have figured out how to beat Radar at tier X, they just switch over to torpedoes that have enough range to be launched outside the range of Radar...

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49 minutes ago, Prothall said:

I have always felt that certain commander skills should be class specific.

Concealment expert and last stand for DDs

Demo expert and RPF for cruisers

Adrenalin rush, expert loader for BBs.

CVs already have class specific skills.

This way the concealment would really matter to DDs and it is absurd that BBs can out stealth cruisers.

 

Expert Loader is a garbage skill.  It doesn't work at all if your guns are out of sync and it doesn't make switching fast enough to usually be useful.

14 minutes ago, Umikami said:

And I would like to get rid of the built in cheat that tells you when your detected, therefore screwing every stealth ship in the game.

You are correct that it doesn't make any sense.  What?  Are the ships all captained by Jedi or Spiderman?

The problem is, if you game it out in your head, that making this change would require absolutely massive changes to the game or it would simply be broken.  I am sure you are smart enough to play out scenarios, particularly involving cruisers or the less stealthy DDs, that become nigh unplayable.

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6 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Lol DDs have figured out how to beat Radar at tier X, they just switch over to torpedoes that have enough range to be launched outside the range of Radar...

Spamming torpedoes at max range... "fun and engaging" :Smile_sceptic:

CE is fine how it is. adding a counter skill to negate CE you might as well just remove the CE skill. I see no reason to make some convoluted system of skill->counter skill-counter skill to the counter skill....:Smile-_tongue: 

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1 hour ago, StoneRhino said:

I wouldn't mind a counter skill like "Identification expert" that is equal and opposite of CE.

To do this you would probably have to switch over to a concealment vs spotting range system. WoT has such a system and it does have some advantages, like smoke just being a simple buff to a ships concealment value or radar just being a buff to spotting range. One downside is according to the wiki WoT's spotting system takes up about 30% of the server resources used in a battle. How exactly that compares to WoWS current system, I don't know, but there is less math required for the current system so server usage would go up an unknown amount.

1 hour ago, Prothall said:

I have always felt that certain commander skills should be class specific.

Concealment expert and last stand for DDs

Demo expert and RPF for cruisers

Adrenalin rush, expert loader for BBs.

CVs already have class specific skills.

This way the concealment would really matter to DDs and it is absurd that BBs can out stealth cruisers.

Last stand is another skill that should be considered for folding into a ships basic abilities. I'm pretty sure every DD takes it as their first 2 point skill and the whole point of the skill rework was to encourage diversity in skill builds. Having a mandatory skill runs counter to that objective.

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Removing CE as a skill would remove having to make that choice for the fourth skill.  One of the main reasons it is limited to 19 points is to force us to make choices.  LOL, everyone would be able to take RPF or one of the survival skills, along with AFT, or IFHE.  This also sounds like one of the pushes to make all ships equal.  the reason I don't especially like that idea is that currently each ship has different strengths and weaknesses and that would take the differences away.  There is a group of people that battle with Tier 1 ships exactly for that reason - the ships are pretty similar and it is only skill and teamwork that matter (no, new players don't face them because of the number of battles rule.)

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I remember this conversation topic a while back.  My take on it is change what CE does entirely.  Move it away from changing the detectability of a ship to changing to something like dispersion bonuses etc.  See sig.

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1 hour ago, StoneRhino said:

Ya they would but giving access to a skill like that would be a start to allowing a reduction/nerf to radar.

IMO, TASM1 should have been the counter to CSM1 and stealth.  Instead, it's a garbage upgrade.

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46 minutes ago, Umikami said:

And I would like to get rid of the built in cheat that tells you when your detected, therefore screwing every stealth ship in the game.

I like it better than when it was a skill. Because you trick it against some ships like firing BBs. Especially if they have PT as well.

The problem is when you have radar ships that their radar basically equals their detection range. 

15 minutes ago, Kochira said:

To do this you would probably have to switch over to a concealment vs spotting range system. WoT has such a system and it does have some advantages, like smoke just being a simple buff to a ships concealment value or radar just being a buff to spotting range. One downside is according to the wiki WoT's spotting system takes up about 30% of the server resources used in a battle. How exactly that compares to WoWS current system, I don't know, but there is less math required for the current system so server usage would go up an unknown amount.

Last stand is another skill that should be considered for folding into a ships basic abilities. I'm pretty sure every DD takes it as their first 2 point skill and the whole point of the skill rework was to encourage diversity in skill builds. Having a mandatory skill runs counter to that objective.

The wot model is what I was thinking. 

I wouldn't have guessed it was that resource intense though.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

IMO, TASM1 should have been the counter to CSM1 and stealth.  Instead, it's a garbage upgrade.

Agreed. I brought that up in another thread. Having counter choice forces people to think more than "I nedz stealth".

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If nothing else nerf it's effects on battleships.

It also is helped by not much competition in it's tier.

CVs aren't that widespread, secondary builds while fun aren't optimal. IFHE is some competition but sporadically useful. Fire prevention is solid however.

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Depending on when you get your 10-point captain on US CLs, IFHE is the first 10-point skill you should take.  Other than destroyers, most everything at T8 is covered in 25mm armor, which 152mm HE cannot pen. So it forces a choice of doing more damage and thus grinding faster, or going concealment first and having a longer grind.

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2 hours ago, Shad0wFiend said:

Given that concealment expert is a requirement for almost all ships, should that skill be removed and its bonus baked into all ships base stats? I think so as it makes no sense to have it be a highly recommended skill for something like 90% of the ships out there. At that point it ceases being a choice and becomes required. A required skill is something that should be baked into the ship. I also feel that way about the concealment module. In truth how many ships do you run without that module? 

I see your point - tbh French cruisers and Russian DDs don’t need CE as they should always be cycling their guns.

But, if this skill was baked in, what to do with the extra 4 captain points? Suddenly, less difficult decisions need to be made. Unless you are suggesting removing those 4 points so 15 point captains are max. But what about those ships that didn’t need CE? They would lose 4 points and gain nothing useful.

2 hours ago, Slumlord_Trump said:

 I wish they would get rid of priority target, noob number 1 skill........

Actually, I rather like PT. Big difference knowing 1 person is targeting you or whether 6 are, and helpful for when DDs switch to torps and your PT count flickers - time to get torpedobeating!

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1 minute ago, UltimateNewbie said:

But, if this skill was baked in, what to do with the extra 4 captain points? Suddenly, less difficult decisions need to be made.

Replace CE with a new 4-point skill that is more in line with the other 4-point skills.

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