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USSRichardNixon

Terrible Win Rate in Kiev!!!

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I finally finished grinding Kiev.

My WR is 37%, average XP is 1047, destruction ratio is 0.67. 

This is a super annoying ship. Shall I still move to the next ship?

 

 

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Kiev is much tougher to play now as she sees T10 competition much more often now.  She was arguably stronger when at T7.

But Udaloi is a fantastic ship and in my opinion, a lot more balanced than Kiev.  Probably the best jack-of-all trades Russian DD.  The grind is worth it.

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9 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Kiev is much tougher to play now as she sees T10 competition much more often now.  She was arguably stronger when at T7.

But Udaloi is a fantastic ship and in my opinion, a lot more balanced than Kiev.  Probably the best jack-of-all trades Russian DD.  The grind is worth it.

Udaloi is after Ognvoi not after Kiev.

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Are you playing Kiev correctly?   First of all I have CE and concealment mod on my Kiev but it still can be seen from space if trying to cap.  That said it serves best as a support DD.  Ie...follow 2km behind a real T8 DD like a Loyang or something and back it up.  Then if Loyang spots an enemy DD you both light it up.  Most DDs can outspot you even with CE / conceal mod so it's good to stay behind a low detect DD so you're not out spotted.

That or you can play it Khaba / Tashkent style and go for the flank and harass BBs from range.  

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26 minutes ago, USSRichardNixon said:

I finally finished grinding Kiev.

My WR is 37%, average XP is 1047, destruction ratio is 0.67. 

This is a super annoying ship. Shall I still move to the next ship?

 

 

Tashkent works VERY well for me so far (my stats for the last 2-3mo are mostly the Tash).  You just have to abandon the DD playstyle and embrace the fast-moving dakkadakka boat that zips around the map looking for a weak flank to protect or exploit.  I loved Kiev and it took me a while to get comfortable with worse visibility and handling, but in the end it's worth it. 

If you like playing DD as a DD, switch to Ognevoi and grind up.  Udaloi could be a real beast when it gets the planned buff. 

 

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43 minutes ago, USSRichardNixon said:

I finally finished grinding Kiev.

My WR is 37%, average XP is 1047, destruction ratio is 0.67. 

This is a super annoying ship. Shall I still move to the next ship?

 

 

AFT captains skill point is a MUST on Kieve.  It increases your firing range yea your shells are floaty but they can still bean ships at a distance.

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I was in a match with you about an hour ago.  Your Kiev did well against my Hatsuharu (of course, it should).  :Smile_teethhappy:

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1 hour ago, Ace_04 said:

Probably the best jack-of-all trades Russian DD.

Grozovoi might be another on that list, much more so than Khab would ever be, LOL! Trouble is that both of them follow Ognevoi; Kiev is followed by Tashkent and then Khab. @USSRichardNixon has that one spot on. Regardless, Tash and Khab are both good ships worth playing, but they do have markedly different styles than the other line does. They are both "Run and Gun" DDs (actually Tash is really a Destroyer Leader, and Khab probably would be if she was real) which should avoid caps, especially in the early part of the match, concentrating on eliminating red DDs and red cripples.

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I have a less than stellar record with the Kiev, I dreaded what the Tashkent would do to me.  I ended up with a 65% WR in the Tash - something just clicked and I think it could be one of the most underrated ships (or best kept secret) in the game.  I learned a lot in the Tash that I should have learned much earlier, certainly by the Kiev. I’m resolved to buy back the Kiev and get it’s WR to much more satisfactory levels.

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15 hours ago, Umikami said:

Grozovoi might be another on that list, much more so than Khab would ever be, LOL! Trouble is that both of them follow Ognevoi; Kiev is followed by Tashkent and then Khab. @USSRichardNixon has that one spot on. Regardless, Tash and Khab are both good ships worth playing, but they do have markedly different styles than the other line does. They are both "Run and Gun" DDs (actually Tash is really a Destroyer Leader, and Khab probably would be if she was real) which should avoid caps, especially in the early part of the match, concentrating on eliminating red DDs and red cripples.

Until that moment you realize you're the only DD on your team in a Tash or Khab in a Domination match. :cap_wander_2:

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17 hours ago, _MiDKnighTx_ said:

Are you playing Kiev correctly?   First of all I have CE and concealment mod on my Kiev but it still can be seen from space if trying to cap.  That said it serves best as a support DD.  Ie...follow 2km behind a real T8 DD like a Loyang or something and back it up.  Then if Loyang spots an enemy DD you both light it up.  Most DDs can outspot you even with CE / conceal mod so it's good to stay behind a low detect DD so you're not out spotted.

That or you can play it Khaba / Tashkent style and go for the flank and harass BBs from range.  

Let go of your illusion that Kiev is a destroyer.  Ditch the concealment expert, pick up AFT instead, and embrace this pocket cruiser.  Hang around with the big ships on your team and burn down enemy battleships and cruisers.  Lure enemy DDs into shooting at you, then back off to 10km+ range where your guns can still land consistent hits and theirs can't.  If your team has fewer than 3 destroyers (not including you, because you're a cruiser), use your speed to get to an outlying cap ahead of everyone else...if it gets contested, pop smoke and go back to being a cruiser.  Mount Sierra Mike and for goodness sake, use premium engine boost!  Your smoke exists for 3 reasons only: breaking contact when you get surprised at close range, bailing out friendly cruisers & battleships that pushed too far but have enough health left to make it worth smoking them, and then maybe doing some smoke firing during the end game.  T7 (old) Kiev was hands down the best tier-for-tier ship in the game.  T8 (new) Kiev is somewhat balanced by going up against T10 competition, but is still a great ship....as long as you don't try to make it into a DD. :Smile-_tongue:

18 hours ago, USSRichardNixon said:

I finally finished grinding Kiev.

My WR is 37%, average XP is 1047, destruction ratio is 0.67.

None of the above will help with the win rate--you are just far too dependent on the rest of your team, and barring uber-unicum level play on your part this is not a ship that gets above the 50% mark while running solo.  It will help you have much more fun playing the ship, though, along with Tashkent and Khabarovsk after. 

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3 hours ago, Harv72b said:

Let go of your illusion that Kiev is a destroyer.  Ditch the concealment expert, pick up AFT instead, and embrace this pocket cruiser.  Hang around with the big ships on your team and burn down enemy battleships and cruisers.  Lure enemy DDs into shooting at you, then back off to 10km+ range where your guns can still land consistent hits and theirs can't.  If your team has fewer than 3 destroyers (not including you, because you're a cruiser), use your speed to get to an outlying cap ahead of everyone else...if it gets contested, pop smoke and go back to being a cruiser.  Mount Sierra Mike and for goodness sake, use premium engine boost!  Your smoke exists for 3 reasons only: breaking contact when you get surprised at close range, bailing out friendly cruisers & battleships that pushed too far but have enough health left to make it worth smoking them, and then maybe doing some smoke firing during the end game.  T7 (old) Kiev was hands down the best tier-for-tier ship in the game.  T8 (new) Kiev is somewhat balanced by going up against T10 competition, but is still a great ship....as long as you don't try to make it into a DD. :Smile-_tongue:

@_MiDKnighTx_ You don't need to listen to this guy. I run Kiev (and pretty much the whole line as well) as a DD, just takes more understanding of your ship to use it that way and different tactics. Vast majority of players do not understand how to play Russian destroyers with a concealment build and that is understandable as it takes more learning to do so.

By the way Harv72b, you know you can take AFT AND CE right? The two are not exclusive and both are on my Kiev captain build.

Edited by Lightninger

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21 hours ago, USSRichardNixon said:

I finally finished grinding Kiev.

My WR is 37%, average XP is 1047, destruction ratio is 0.67. 

This is a super annoying ship. Shall I still move to the next ship?

 

 

The Tashkent is a great ship that got significantly better with the changes in the Soviet DD split a while back. Before that, it was mediocre. If you need help learning how to play Russian DDs, just let me know.

Also with the changes listed in the dev blog, they're going to get better, especially for anyone who has been following my advice. I will put out a PSA if those changes gets implemented.

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2 hours ago, Lightninger said:

By the way Harv72b, you know you can take AFT AND CE right? The two are not exclusive and both are on my Kiev captain build.

You can, and I experimented with that combination on my Khabarovsk for a while.  End result was that I found that trying to fit both skills into my build forced me to leave out other, highly desirable skills (SE, DE, BFT)...the trade-off didn't seem worth it to me.  In the end, you're using 4 very valuable captain points (and let's remember that not everyone has 19-point captains to throw into these ships) in order to make your ship be slightly less out-spotted by every other non-Soviet DD it faces.  No matter what you do, Kiev's concealment will not be competitive vis-a-vis other destroyers in its matchmaking spread, and no matter what you don't do, it will never be out-spotted by cruisers in those tiers.

I'm not saying that it isn't possible to play Kiev in a more traditional destroyer role, using a concealment-focused build.  I'm just saying that it's far more difficult for the average player to do (as you said yourself), and in typical random battles it's not generally worth the effort.  Just as I'm not suggesting that someone in an 8.7km Kiev should avoid playing the objective, but for somebody struggling with the ship to begin with that's probably good advice until they get more comfortable with its capabilities and with playing a destroyer in general while spotted.

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5 minutes ago, Harv72b said:

You can, and I experimented with that combination on my Khabarovsk for a while.  End result was that I found that trying to fit both skills into my build forced me to leave out other, highly desirable skills (SE, DE, BFT)...the trade-off didn't seem worth it to me.  In the end, you're using 4 very valuable captain points (and let's remember that not everyone has 19-point captains to throw into these ships) in order to make your ship be slightly less out-spotted by every other non-Soviet DD it faces.  No matter what you do, Kiev's concealment will not be competitive vis-a-vis other destroyers in its matchmaking spread, and no matter what you don't do, it will never be out-spotted by cruisers in those tiers.

I'm not saying that it isn't possible to play Kiev in a more traditional destroyer role, using a concealment-focused build.  I'm just saying that it's far more difficult for the average player to do (as you said yourself), and in typical random battles it's not generally worth the effort.  Just as I'm not suggesting that someone in an 8.7km Kiev should avoid playing the objective, but for somebody struggling with the ship to begin with that's probably good advice until they get more comfortable with its capabilities and with playing a destroyer in general while spotted.

By tiers 8-10, I don't feel DE is worth the points invested in it as everything at high tier has much more resistance to fires being started on them. This is why I generally have no issue building captains with CE for my Russian destroyers, and why to me there is nothing to lose by taking CE. And yes, while you do get outspotted by other DD lines (7.1 km versus ~6), having CE lets your do things like stealth torp, not get spotted simultaneously in a cyclone, break off detection faster when needed, and surprise and kill other DDs more effectively when you are hunting them. It is definitely a different style of play.

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8 minutes ago, Lightninger said:

By tiers 8-10, I don't feel DE is worth the points invested in it as everything at high tier has much more resistance to fires being started on them. This is why I generally have no issue building captains with CE for my Russian destroyers, and why to me there is nothing to lose by taking CE. And yes, while you do get outspotted by other DD lines (7.1 km versus ~6), having CE lets your do things like stealth torp, not get spotted simultaneously in a cyclone, break off detection faster when needed, and surprise and kill other DDs more effectively when you are hunting them. It is definitely a different style of play.

Eh, we're well into the personal preference area at this point.  In the case of Kiev, though, running DE + the 2 fire flags gives you a base fire-setting increase of 27% over the stock configuration (or 18% over just the signals).  When you're talking about a ship that can put out 12 rounds/minute per gun, even with an extremely mediocre hit rate of 35%, DE alone should net you on average an extra fire for every 2 minutes your guns are firing; over the course of a full battle, a conservative estimate for an average player would be 3 additional fires vs. just running the signals.  I definitely noticed the difference when I moved a 10-point captain onto Kiev & had to do without DE for a while.

Of course, you could counter with the argument that having a nominal ability to stealth torp would make up that difference in the form of more torpedo hits, but in order to stealth torp your guns necessarily have to be silent during your run in (at the least), which means we're talking about an even bigger differential to begin with.  What I will gladly concede is that a stealth build does leave you slightly less reliant on your teammates, and thus should result in a higher win rate for a player who masters that play style. :Smile_Default:

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