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WES_HoundDog

Time to update to 2018 standards

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The HPS on ships in this game were balanced for about 2 years ago when ships did 1/3rd the dps they do today.  Time to bring the game to 2018 standards and increase ship hps 3 fold.

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1 minute ago, WES_HoundDog said:

The HPS on ships in this game were balanced for about 2 years ago when ships did 1/3rd the dps they do today.  Time to bring the game to 2018 standards and increase ship hps 3 fold.

1) There has not been a threefold increase in DPS.  Montana and Yamato, for example, haven't changed at all and are still fully competitive, in fact being the two preferred BBs for Tier X competitions.

2) WG wants the matches to go faster, not slower.

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1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

1) There has not been a threefold increase in DPS.  Montana and Yamato, for example, haven't changed at all and are still fully competitive, in fact being the two preferred BBs for Tier X competitions.

2) WG wants the matches to go faster, not slower.

While his numbers may well be exaggerated, BB DPS has stayed for the most part the same yes but Cruisers and DD's have had a dramatic uptick in DPS since IFHE was introduced. Lets say before that, you hit with 50% of your rounds, but of that, 50% of those were shatters that did nothing. So say, Cleveland, since it has even numbers that are easy to work with, 6/12 hitting, 3 of 12 pen and damage, 726 per hit, 2178 damage. IFHE, it's straight pass fail still but now you can pen a lot more things, things that were you using AP would bounce or the like, so now your getting 6/6 penning, that's double the damage it used to do. 

And fires were balanced around the old way before IFHE even existed, let alone became an almost default skill taken. That's why they changed fires and all on cruisers and DD's, yet foolishly neglected BB's and actually made CV's worse. Back in the day, Cleveland was maybe at it's best taking off 8-10k HP of a BB in 30 seconds, assuming 25% or rounds got a pen. Now your talking 16-20k in 30 seconds, plus fires, that, at best deal 10.4% of HP with absolute max survivability build, flags and upgrades, or 18% if you have say, a newer player that has none of that. And that's per fire. This is the part everyone forgets along with the fact that even if you can repair "100% of fire damage", the repair party unless it's UK super repair only heals 14% HP, or 16.8 with the flag, every 80 seconds if you have premium consumable, 22 minutes if you don't. and only HALF of the pen damage. A cruiser can set a BB on fire twice and with damage deal 50% or more of the BB's damage in 30 seconds now.

 

And there in lies the issue with point 2 - Because the number of Radar ships has increased, not even just the extra of the USN split, DD's are having to play more passive, which reduces caps, spotting, etc. Because AA has been overbuffed especially if it's lower tiered, CV's have to play more passive. Because now almost every DD and cruiser is running IFHE especilly lights, and many have high arcs that mean they hide behind islands where they can't be shot even IF they get spotted, the BB's are having to play more passive. To which cruisers are terrified of being one shot by BB's if they aren't hidden - so they play passive. Wargaming has actually made matches particularly at high tier take LONGER because of what they have done by driving all classes to more passive stances. 

They need to fix Radar so DD's aren't as afraid to go scout, they need to nerf AA, unnerf Midway's hanger (and remove the 2,2,2 and bring back 2,1,3 with more accurate HE bombs), and buff Hak's hanger roughly 20 planes (the same effective change in balance as nerfing Midways but instead a buff fixing the issue that Hak was running out of planes), so that we have planes that can get through and attack more than just DD's without catastrophic losses unless they are in a decent sized group, so we can be more aggressive, nerf BB AP so that it's more difficult to one shot a cruiser with AP, so they can be more aggressive, which that, combined with even just a reduction of 3% to BB fire damage from 18% max to 15% max so that fires are a little less devastating and we can take an extra one maybe (yes, that is the actual mathematical difference, BB's could survive 1 more fire, or 2 with a full survivability build), which allows them to tank better, which means -they can be more aggressive.

 

They want faster matches, they need to make changes that encourage more aggressive play than passive, and some of the changes may seem backwards to "make matches faster" such as nerfing damage in some areas, but if it means caps are contested and it's not the first 5-10 minutes are basically hide and seek, it'll actually make the matches shorter because they are actually in combat.

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IFHE reduces fire chance.

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On 7/9/2018 at 11:50 PM, WanderingGhost said:

While his numbers may well be exaggerated, BB DPS has stayed for the most part the same yes but Cruisers and DD's have had a dramatic uptick in DPS since IFHE was introduced. Lets say before that, you hit with 50% of your rounds, but of that, 50% of those were shatters that did nothing. So say, Cleveland, since it has even numbers that are easy to work with, 6/12 hitting, 3 of 12 pen and damage, 726 per hit, 2178 damage. IFHE, it's straight pass fail still but now you can pen a lot more things, things that were you using AP would bounce or the like, so now your getting 6/6 penning, that's double the damage it used to do. 

And fires were balanced around the old way before IFHE even existed, let alone became an almost default skill taken. That's why they changed fires and all on cruisers and DD's, yet foolishly neglected BB's and actually made CV's worse. Back in the day, Cleveland was maybe at it's best taking off 8-10k HP of a BB in 30 seconds, assuming 25% or rounds got a pen. Now your talking 16-20k in 30 seconds, plus fires, that, at best deal 10.4% of HP with absolute max survivability build, flags and upgrades, or 18% if you have say, a newer player that has none of that. And that's per fire. This is the part everyone forgets along with the fact that even if you can repair "100% of fire damage", the repair party unless it's UK super repair only heals 14% HP, or 16.8 with the flag, every 80 seconds if you have premium consumable, 22 minutes if you don't. and only HALF of the pen damage. A cruiser can set a BB on fire twice and with damage deal 50% or more of the BB's damage in 30 seconds now.

 

And there in lies the issue with point 2 - Because the number of Radar ships has increased, not even just the extra of the USN split, DD's are having to play more passive, which reduces caps, spotting, etc. Because AA has been overbuffed especially if it's lower tiered, CV's have to play more passive. Because now almost every DD and cruiser is running IFHE especilly lights, and many have high arcs that mean they hide behind islands where they can't be shot even IF they get spotted, the BB's are having to play more passive. To which cruisers are terrified of being one shot by BB's if they aren't hidden - so they play passive. Wargaming has actually made matches particularly at high tier take LONGER because of what they have done by driving all classes to more passive stances. 

They need to fix Radar so DD's aren't as afraid to go scout, they need to nerf AA, unnerf Midway's hanger (and remove the 2,2,2 and bring back 2,1,3 with more accurate HE bombs), and buff Hak's hanger roughly 20 planes (the same effective change in balance as nerfing Midways but instead a buff fixing the issue that Hak was running out of planes), so that we have planes that can get through and attack more than just DD's without catastrophic losses unless they are in a decent sized group, so we can be more aggressive, nerf BB AP so that it's more difficult to one shot a cruiser with AP, so they can be more aggressive, which that, combined with even just a reduction of 3% to BB fire damage from 18% max to 15% max so that fires are a little less devastating and we can take an extra one maybe (yes, that is the actual mathematical difference, BB's could survive 1 more fire, or 2 with a full survivability build), which allows them to tank better, which means -they can be more aggressive.

 

They want faster matches, they need to make changes that encourage more aggressive play than passive, and some of the changes may seem backwards to "make matches faster" such as nerfing damage in some areas, but if it means caps are contested and it's not the first 5-10 minutes are basically hide and seek, it'll actually make the matches shorter because they are actually in combat.

This......explains SO much about behavior I've been seeing (I'm recently back from a 6 month break and the level of difference in behavior then and behavior now, as well as a drastic difference in damage received as a BB captain, is just *astonishing*).

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10 minutes ago, Stormie1126 said:

This......explains SO much about behavior I've been seeing (I'm recently back from a 6 month break and the level of difference in behavior then and behavior now, as well as a drastic difference in damage received as a BB captain, is just *astonishing*).

Actually that's a two punch combo on the BB's. Fires/IFHE has been an issue longer than that, however, where your getting some of that is they just released USN light cruisers, of which thetop tier is "Atlanta 2.0" from what I hear, so, your seeing a lot of IFHE. The other is a more recent change around the time you left or after, in which they changed "shell and armour interaction", and while I think they fixed the "bug" that had BB's eating crazy citadels against one another, they still seem to get penned way more often and eat way more damage for it from AP. 

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Even as a BB "main" if you will, there were a couple of reasons IFHE was introduced and good ones at that. The reduced fire chances on BB Captain's made it difficult for CA's to lite us sometimes, well outside of a Zao that is, got to think of the timeline and IFHE took away "some" (2%) chance to start a fire, but at the cost of 4pts. However, there is still saturation with fires, but IFHE can help pen(?) that, for lack of better terminology, thus increasing their usefulness and allow them to not immediately get steamrolled by BB's.

As it sits now, they still get annihilated if caught making a mistake, though rightfully so. Just as a BB will get sank if wandering off trying to be "Capt. Win-the-day-solo" and that too is rightfully so.

The DPM hasn't gone up as others have said, the balance has started to come in line and what we are seeing "now" is probably an indication of what we are to expect later... Think of 8-12 months from now when the possible CV changes come out. The entire meta will change and when that happens, you can't change every ship in the game all at once, it would take months of gradual changes before CV's get "reintroduced".

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5 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Actually that's a two punch combo on the BB's. Fires/IFHE has been an issue longer than that, however, where your getting some of that is they just released USN light cruisers, of which thetop tier is "Atlanta 2.0" from what I hear, so, your seeing a lot of IFHE. The other is a more recent change around the time you left or after, in which they changed "shell and armour interaction", and while I think they fixed the "bug" that had BB's eating crazy citadels against one another, they still seem to get penned way more often and eat way more damage for it from AP. 

Yeah, even if I'm not getting citadel hits on my ship, the amount of damage I'm getting from even Cruiser AP seems a tad much, even in BBs that are supposed to be super beefy. I was also referring to the INSANE increase in what seemed to be outright terror in a lot of captains from properly engaging. Today especially I just saw cruiser after cruiser after cruiser after cruiser rush in, then the second the enemy shows on the map they just RUN for the hills without firing a shot, leaving us BBs with no support.

Edited by Stormie1126

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