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HarryVoyager

Struggling with the Arizona

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My performance seems to have taken a dive with the Arizona lately and I'm not sure why. I've done well with the New Mexico, New York, and Texas, and seem to be doing relatively solidly in the Colorado, but my win rate on the AZ has nose dived to 40% (~55% on the other US BBs) and about 10k less damage per match than the others and 8k below the server average.

Typical engagement range is around 10kmand usually using AP, prioritizing Cruisers and DDs where possible. 

What am I doing wrong here? Do I just need to keep HE loaded more for those longer ranged engagements? Get closer? Improve my aim? Sleep earlier so I'm not making sleep-deprived boneheaded tactical mistakes? 

I just don't understand why I'm potatoing so hard in just this one ship. 

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You have only 311 battles, therein is the problem. It's just a lack of experience.

 

Don't feel bad, just keep at it. FYI, AZ and I aren't currently on speaking terms. She and I don't get along, at all.

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I can't personally comment on her performance since I dont have her. What I know however is that her accuracy and sigma is excellent compared to most of the BBs in these tiers. I believe you could stick at longer ranges and still nail most your shots. 

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20 minutes ago, HarryVoyager said:

My performance seems to have taken a dive with the Arizona lately and I'm not sure why. I've done well with the New Mexico, New York, and Texas, and seem to be doing relatively solidly in the Colorado, but my win rate on the AZ has nose dived to 40% (~55% on the other US BBs) and about 10k less damage per match than the others and 8k below the server average.

Typical engagement range is around 10kmand usually using AP, prioritizing Cruisers and DDs where possible. 

What am I doing wrong here? Do I just need to keep HE loaded more for those longer ranged engagements? Get closer? Improve my aim? Sleep earlier so I'm not making sleep-deprived boneheaded tactical mistakes? 

I just don't understand why I'm potatoing so hard in just this one ship. 

I see the issue- engagement ranges at 10km. If your doing that at beginning, there's the problem. The Ari does only 21 knots max. She can't flex from one spot to another like a Kongo or a GC can. What's worse is that if the flank you're in collapses, you'll be burned and torped down. 

One viable solution is to stay at the 13-15 km range and be a long range sniper. Use the spotter. You need to be ahead of the curve when knowing to beat feet or not.

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You can enable replays by downloading aslains mod. There are some people out there who might be willing to watch them and give you some constructive feedback. Below is a link to a discord that allows you to do that. They helped me out with my Leningrad.

https://discord.gg/Q5YpzT

 

It also wouldn't hurt to watch your own replays and analyze your gameplay. Did you over extend to early? Did you stick with your fleet or go off on your own?Were your overshooting, undershooting, etc.

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I'll do that. I should also go over my New Mexico and early AZ replays and see if there's something I was doing differently earlier that I changed.

Honestly I suspect I need to push more rather than less: the New Mexico has some wonky dispersion so I don't recall much long range work in that one (though there was that one Atlanta that grounded itself broad side to me near max range...) and it feels like I get a lot of bounces with the Arizona, but I'll review them and see what was actually going on, and see about bringing some to that Discord channel you recommended. 

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AZ is a  beast ship, you should do pretty well in it if your not making simple mistakes like showing full broadside on a regular basis.  The AZ can dodge torps well but with its  slow speed the most important thing in the AZ is to identify where your ship will do the most work, its hard to head in the other direction in a timely fashion.  Recently I took out two almost full strength Fuso's with this ship, it can bounce stuff like no ones business and hits hard with good accuracy.

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AZ guns while accurate, do suffer when you're up against angled targets, be it enemy Battleships or even some cruisers.  Getting in close helps, but do not be afraid to swap to HE in her. When released she was one of the first BB's that I advocated slinging HE when you had too (This is pre-British when HE on a BB was sacrilege lol)

If it helps, I did a long winded review on her back in the days when she came out

 

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1 hour ago, Bill_Halsey said:

One viable solution is to stay at the 13-15 km range and be a long range sniper. Use the spotter. You need to be ahead of the curve when knowing to beat feet or not.

While I know her guns only reach out to 16 km max, it's difficult for me to think of 13 - 15 km as "long range" either for US battleships, or for the tier.  To each their own, I guess.  (And, of course, it's also possible I'm just wrong.)

2 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

What I know however is that her accuracy and sigma is excellent compared to most of the BBs in these tiers.

Compared to the other BB's you mention here, OP, have you considered your shells are falling too close to your point of aim?

:Smile_teethhappy:

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Arizona is a good, consistent gunner.  Anything you can do to make her survive so that she keeps pumping shells is paramount.

 

A good, comfortable engagement window is 12-14km with the guns.  You have reasonable expectations for hits and AZ's guns behave well in this parameter.  Getting any closer makes you more vulnerable to some other BBs out there, especially German BBs.  Dipping under 12km and you start entering the realm of torpedoes from DDs and some Cruisers (IJN).

 

These are the threats you should be wary of the most and some things to mitigate them.  In no particular order:

 

Carriers - Your AA is worthless.  Any tier CV that sees you will look at you as a free meal.  In a CV match, do not sail alone.  Not even an AA Build will save AZ.

 

Torpedo Destroyers - A stealthed up Torp DD is a hard counter to most BBs.  Best you can do is sail smartly and don't be alone.

 

380mm+ armed Battleships - They'll penetrate even your bow.  You'll lose in a shootout, especially against the 406mm/410mm armed BBs of Tier VII-VIII.  Don't be alone, play the map where as few of these things can shoot at you while you can fire back.  If you're sitting there in open water and you have direct LOS to Amagi, North Carolina, Nagato at the same time, you're doing it wrong.  Use the map to break that up where hopefully, 1 of such BBs has LOS and can attack you at best.  Hell, make it where none of those have LOS to you, but you still have the chances to shoot at enemy ships.

 

Fast sailing Secondaries / Brawling Battleships - Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Tirpitz, Bismarck - Keeping above 12km, sailing with friends, especially friendly DDs around you, are your best counters to dissuade such BBs from going full speed and trying to run you down.  If you don't have friends, especially when these guys know you have no DD Buddies, they will charge.  Being with friends is a must.  No BB wants to charge into unspotted Destroyers or being focused by multiple Cruisers and Battleships.  But if you are alone or too small a group, no DD screen, then you are looking appetizing.  By having friends and a screen, you can keep such Secondaries Build BBs at bay where their gunnery is far less reliable.  Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau are very unreliable the closer they get to 15km.  Keep that out there and hit them with your more reliable to hit guns.  Don't aim for waterline on these German BBs,  Aim for upper belt (if they are showing sides) or base of the superstructure (if angled) for penetrating AP hits.  Matter of fact, get the hang of this trick because you'll need it in USN BBs dealing with German BBs past Tier VI.  Especially the 406mm armed USN BBs.

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54 minutes ago, Fishrokk said:

While I know her guns only reach out to 16 km max, it's difficult for me to think of 13 - 15 km as "long range" either for US battleships, or for the tier.  To each their own, I guess.  (And, of course, it's also possible I'm just wrong.)

Compared to the other BB's you mention here, OP, have you considered your shells are falling too close to your point of aim?

:Smile_teethhappy:

Spotter plane not only gives 20% more range put the partial overhead view allows you to hit slow moving or stationary ships hiding behind islands.

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Well, for an experiment, I'll plan on running about 3 games using the 14km-16km plinking style, staying with teammates, and see where that goes. Also trying to use HE to see if it performs better. Looking at my stats between the NM and AZ, it looks like I'm getting the same hit percentage, but around 20% less damage, so I'm thinking the difference is the lack of penetrations.

First game was very, very static. Most of the population was T8 ships, so after early caps by our DD, the game evolved into a holding pattern where we all shelled each-other at distance until ships started dieing. My aim in this one is just painful. Part of that though, is I was not anticipating the cruisers' movements well enough. We won, but I under-performed quite a bit; likely poor aim left me with a 9.8% hit rate.

https://replayswows.com/replay/26245#stats

Thinking I do need to run more HE, though. There were 7 overpens that would have likely been penetrations. As tempting as that Mogami's broadside was, I'm not sure an AP shell would have done more that go in one side and out the other.

We'll see how the next games go.

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4 hours ago, HarryVoyager said:

Well, for an experiment, I'll plan on running about 3 games using the 14km-16km plinking style, staying with teammates, and see where that goes. Also trying to use HE to see if it performs better. Looking at my stats between the NM and AZ, it looks like I'm getting the same hit percentage, but around 20% less damage, so I'm thinking the difference is the lack of penetrations.

First game was very, very static. Most of the population was T8 ships, so after early caps by our DD, the game evolved into a holding pattern where we all shelled each-other at distance until ships started dieing. My aim in this one is just painful. Part of that though, is I was not anticipating the cruisers' movements well enough. We won, but I under-performed quite a bit; likely poor aim left me with a 9.8% hit rate.

https://replayswows.com/replay/26245#stats

Thinking I do need to run more HE, though. There were 7 overpens that would have likely been penetrations. As tempting as that Mogami's broadside was, I'm not sure an AP shell would have done more that go in one side and out the other.

We'll see how the next games go.

Please, don't be "one of those guys" using HE on Non-RN BBs a lot.  You will be letting slip opportunities to crush people

 

HE has its place, but it's not to be a common Non-RN BB round.

 

When you're sailing your BB and you see a broadside Battleship or Cruiser, and you got your HE slotted, you can only blame yourself for letting slip such a golden opportunity.  Even Cruisers that try to angle, can and will get slammed hard.  You can land a BB AP shell on the very tip of the stern of a Cruiser and citadel the sh*t out of it.

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3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Please, don't be "one of those guys" using HE on Non-RN BBs a lot.  You will be letting slip opportunities to crush people

 

HE has its place, but it's not to be a common Non-RN BB round.

 

When you're sailing your BB and you see a broadside Battleship or Cruiser, and you got your HE slotted, you can only blame yourself for letting slip such a golden opportunity.  Even Cruisers that try to angle, can and will get slammed hard.  You can land a BB AP shell on the very tip of the stern of a Cruiser and citadel the sh*t out of it.

Had both against the cruisers there. The HE penned, the AP overpenned. Honestly, I've been underwhelmed by the 14/45's AP. Those aren't the first CA broad sides that did nothing. Note the per shell damage was higher on the HE rounds than the AP ones, which has not been the case with the 12" guns or the 14/50's. It will pen ~50mm of deck or superstructure armour and clear out deck guns even on a highly angled target.

As I said though, this is an experiment. I'll try a set of pure AP runs after these and compare, but at 14-16km AP does not seem terribly reliable in this ship. We will see. 

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#2, less than successful: https://replayswows.com/replay/26269#stats

Should have been paying more attention to the mini-map, and started disengaging when I realized we only had 1 DD, 1 CA and me vs the entire enemy team. This round I ended up using only AP, and we extremely disappointed in its performance, especially against broadside cruisers. Had several occasions when cruisers ate full AP broadsides, and took minimal damage. Meanwhile the enemy fleet slowly burned me to the waterline, and, had I been packing HE, that Akizuki would have died when he thought it was a good idea to charge my guns.

So, revised rules: keep count of friendlies on the wing: if they're running low, get pointed the other direction, even if I stick in the area initially. Next 2x games, HE only experiment, and see where it's optimal and where not.

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I like this ship, she does have some shortcomings, but she is fun. When the guns behave they hit hard

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AZ is so good though.

Your probably potatoing to T6 [edited] MM up tiering you against ships that dont care that your guns are good and your armor is thick. 

AZ is fantastic in her tier, she does ok in T7 but against T8s, RIP....

Her atrocious secondaries and terrible AA leave you vulnerable against guys who get in real close to you or planes.  Your guns are solid performers, hit hard, hit pretty accurate, but AZ as a whole doesnt really wanna be that up close, since her CQC ability is trash.  PLus, while your hull is tough, your barbettes can be shot to pieces for beautiful citadel hits.....even the AI will nuke an angled AZ in the barbettes.

Maybe keep her a little further back then 10km, maybe 12-14km, her guns are still solid there. 

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I'm going to go the opposite direction here.

Get in there and brawl your brains out.

Especially when you're top tier. Arizona's guns are disgusting nail drivers from 5-7 km on everything her tier and lower. She's also got bagonza armor and reasonable torpedo direction to go with decent dodging ability (all things considered). With even minimal team support she can effectively tank and brawl.

I have made no secret of the fact that I am a slightly below average player, overall. The 47% W/R and sub 700 avg XP/G speaks to that.

I use my Arizona as a brawler.

Arizona stats (small sample size):

67% W/R
25% Survival Rate (I die a lot in general, I die a lot less in Arizona)
21 Kills in 24 Battles
49k Avg. Dmg. (this number is rising, I tried to snipe with her at first and was sitting in the low/mid 30's at the start)
Main Battery HR: 34%

While a lot of those numbers are blah, I admit... they are all better than my averages.

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On 7/24/2018 at 2:34 PM, DonKarnage2 said:

I'm going to go the opposite direction here.

Get in there and brawl your brains out.

Especially when you're top tier. Arizona's guns are disgusting nail drivers from 5-7 km on everything her tier and lower. She's also got bagonza armor and reasonable torpedo direction to go with decent dodging ability (all things considered). With even minimal team support she can effectively tank and brawl.

I have made no secret of the fact that I am a slightly below average player, overall. The 47% W/R and sub 700 avg XP/G speaks to that.

I use my Arizona as a brawler.

Arizona stats (small sample size):

67% W/R
25% Survival Rate (I die a lot in general, I die a lot less in Arizona)
21 Kills in 24 Battles
49k Avg. Dmg. (this number is rising, I tried to snipe with her at first and was sitting in the low/mid 30's at the start)
Main Battery HR: 34%

While a lot of those numbers are blah, I admit... they are all better than my averages.

A good ship, to be sure. But not an easy one, and a vulnerable one now.

 

Between newer and better BBs(more 15 inch gunned BBs at Tier VI besides Warspite, and Mutsu's addition), and the USN CLs restarting an HE/Fire spam meta, USN Standards are no fun because they can't run away fast enough to disengage from constant fire spam, and the Cruiser players generally are either good enough to dodge your shells, are bad, but there's just too many of them(safety in numbers) to be able to realistically(in practice) stop them all, or they are camping behind islands where you can't see(or shoot at) them, but someone's spotting for them so they CAN see(and shoot at) you.

 

Also, their armor doesn't hold up as well as it used to, thanks to the new BBs.

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4 hours ago, legoboy0401 said:

A good ship, to be sure. But not an easy one, and a vulnerable one now.

 

Between newer and better BBs(more 15 inch gunned BBs at Tier VI besides Warspite, and Mutsu's addition), and the USN CLs restarting an HE/Fire spam meta, USN Standards are no fun because they can't run away fast enough to disengage from constant fire spam, and the Cruiser players generally are either good enough to dodge your shells, are bad, but there's just too many of them(safety in numbers) to be able to realistically(in practice) stop them all, or they are camping behind islands where you can't see(or shoot at) them, but someone's spotting for them so they CAN see(and shoot at) you.

 

Also, their armor doesn't hold up as well as it used to, thanks to the new BBs.

If you go Bow-on, you can pretty well bow tank in Arizona everything up to T8. At least that's been my experience.

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2 hours ago, DonKarnage2 said:

If you go Bow-on, you can pretty well bow tank in Arizona everything up to T8. At least that's been my experience.

Overmatch, yada-yada. It says "LOL NOPE! You think you've got an armored bow? Armor? WHAT ARMOR?" to AZ. Any BB with 15 inch guns or larger will be able to do this to Tier VI and VII BBs. And AZ sees a LOT of them in her MM bracket.

Edited by legoboy0401

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7 hours ago, legoboy0401 said:

Overmatch, yada-yada. It says "LOL NOPE! You think you've got an armored bow? Armor? WHAT ARMOR?" to AZ. Any BB with 15 inch guns or larger will be able to do this to Tier VI and VII BBs. And AZ sees a LOT of them in her MM bracket.

When AZ was pretty new, she had 2 things going for her:

 

1.  The old, original launch +/-3 Match maker.  No real tier protection except for the lowest of tiers.  Tier VI for example used to face as high as Tier Freaking IX.  But AZ used to beat up on Tier IV ships as well, etc.  Imagine AZ beating up on Phoenix, Wyoming (who can't hit an island she's parked beside of), Myogi, etc.  She saw a lot more extremes but had PLENTY of times to truly show her dominance.

 

2.  BB guns larger than 356mm which could Overmatch AZ were not as common.  Warspite isn't common.  German BBs have not released yet, i.e. Bayern in Tier VI with 380mm guns.  There was a good time span where AZ was running absolutely wild.  The only BB that could stop AZ in these days that were Tier VI and lower were Warspite (somewhat rare) or Imp.Nikolai I (extremely super rare).  Everything else was an easy meal for AZ.

 

Things changed of course.  The old MM went away and now AZ stares at Tier VII-VIII matches all the time.  She could no longer club on Tier III-IV stuff anymore.  Bayern arrived with 380mm guns, the first real, direct threat to AZ that could actually be readily seen.  Warspite was never common as a Premium Ship, but Bayern is a tech tree ship and sees a lot of action.  Much later, Mutsu arrived with 410mm guns (for the lulz) in Tier VI but at least she's super rare.  Then the RN BB Line arrived with tech tree Queen Elizabeth with another set of 380mm guns in Tier VI.   The difficulty and competition AZ faces now is much more dangerous than when she was new.  The threats have skyrocketed in Tier VI alone, and MM shafts her.  I'm not even touching with a 10 foot pole the Tier VII-VIII threats that have arrived since the MM change, stuff she encounters, i.e. Scharnhorst, Kaga, Saipan, etc.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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11 hours ago, legoboy0401 said:

Overmatch, yada-yada. It says "LOL NOPE! You think you've got an armored bow? Armor? WHAT ARMOR?" to AZ. Any BB with 15 inch guns or larger will be able to do this to Tier VI and VII BBs. And AZ sees a LOT of them in her MM bracket.

That's not really a fair comparison though since the AZ has never had a bow armor advantage over any other battleship.  The Arizona's armor profile differences are subtle compared to the New Mexico.  It's advantage is mostly found in the upper belt region where the New Mexico has 25mm plating and the Arizona has 37mm plating.  It's enough to make the difference between 15"+ caliber shells always penetrating on a New Mexico and Colorado, and potentially deflecting on the Arizona if properly angled.  It's also going to protect a lot more against smaller caliber HE shells if it hits that belt.  Fewer types of HE will only consistently do damage, like some German stuff and 203mm + IFHE.

It's subtle, but it definitely makes a big difference in game.  The Arizona soaks a lot of damage that the New Mexico and Colorado cannot.

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