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Guardian54

The Bayern Horror Show

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I hated the Queen Elizabeth, a lot, for its derpy gunnery (not enough shells to fill the circle, nothing special with the ROF, and not accurate enough to reliably AP pen through bows i.e. not accurate enough to hit the enemy reliably on each salvo). In fact I hated it so much I ran a test of firing on stationary broadside Aobas, center of waterline, and scored 40% hits with New Mexico and less than 30% with QE, specifically to justify my hatred.

The Bayern is so abysmal I'm not even bothering with such a thing because of how the accuracy is very much worse in even just cited numbers (and the number of consecutive broadsides you can whiff on a grounded cruiser) than the QE...

Same glacially slow turrets as QE.

Same bleh mobility.

Same low gun count that doesn't fill the circle.

 

At tier 6, the number of shells per shotgun spread counts for a lot in actually hitting, and NM/Norm/Fuso have QE and Bayern trashed in that regard. And QE/Bayern don't even get faster reloads to make up for it. Overmatch and all that count only AFTER the hit, so hitting is the first and foremost problem.

And if you try getting closer? Congratulations, IFHE cruisers with nom you very, very fast. And you can't catch up, nor run, and your range is pretty bad too...

If you try closing on enemy BBs, well they're generally behind the torpedo-armed cruisers (i.e. all cruisers except the Americans) and destroyers who will laugh at your uselessly inaccurate smoothbore bombards and melee you to death as you don't exactly have DD agility.

And everyone knows to aim above the belt on German BBs now.

Looks like another slog of daily bonuses to the Tier 7...

Edited by Guardian54
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What ranges are you trying to engage in randoms and at what range did you run this "test"?

 

New Mexico is a fantastic boat.

Edited by k9kid12

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1 hour ago, Guardian54 said:

I hated the Queen Elizabeth, a lot, for its derpy gunnery (not enough shells to fill the circle, nothing special with the ROF, and not accurate enough to reliably AP pen through bows i.e. not accurate enough to hit the enemy reliably on each salvo). In fact I hated it so much I ran a test of firing on stationary broadside Aobas, center of waterline, and scored 40% hits with New Mexico and less than 30% with QE, specifically to justify my hatred.

The Bayern is so abysmal I'm not even bothering with such a thing because of how the accuracy is very much worse in even just cited numbers (and the number of consecutive broadsides you can whiff on a grounded cruiser) than the QE...

Same glacially slow turrets as QE.

Same bleh mobility.

Same low gun count that doesn't fill the circle.

 

At tier 6, the number of shells per shotgun spread counts for a lot in actually hitting, and NM/Norm/Fuso have QE and Bayern trashed in that regard. And QE/Bayern don't even get faster reloads to make up for it. Overmatch and all that count only AFTER the hit, so hitting is the first and foremost problem.

And if you try getting closer? Congratulations, IFHE cruisers with nom you very, very fast. And you can't catch up, nor run, and your range is pretty bad too...

If you try closing on enemy BBs, well they're generally behind the torpedo-armed cruisers (i.e. all cruisers except the Americans) and destroyers who will laugh at your uselessly inaccurate smoothbore bombards and melee you to death as you don't exactly have DD agility.

And everyone knows to aim above the belt on German BBs now.

Looks like another slog of daily bonuses to the Tier 7...

I actually enjoyed the Bayern and actually took down a noobie full health Bismarck in one random battle. When he would angle away from me a would light him up with HE then when he turned broadside to me a would use my  AP. I would stay angled when he was about to fire then turn to use all my guns after he fired. My Bayern sank him taking almost all of his health. I'm sure RNG was in my favor for that battle. :Smile_amazed:

Edited by dust340man

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2 hours ago, k9kid12 said:

What ranges are you trying to engage in randoms and at what range did you run this "test"?

New Mexico is a fantastic boat.

I tested QE vs NM accuracy at 10km vs Aobas. Bow-on there was no significant difference in hit ratio and QE took on average more salvos to kill an Aoba with AP due to scattering, though NM suffered some ricochets QE did not. Broadside QE hit under 30% of shots while NM hit 40%.

NM was great when I ground through it and is still great now.

In randoms I tend to spend most of the fighting at more like 13-14 km. Under 10km only happens when I'm committing to win or die in a particular encounter and I tend to avoid islands unless bumrushing the guy behind island (only applicable if they do not have torpedoes, obviously).

1 hour ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Gneisenau will be such a delight for you :cap_haloween:

I can handle a shotgun that fails at shooting back as long as it's attached to a frame that can control the range of engagement so the enemy can't shoot back either.

1 hour ago, dust340man said:

I actually enjoyed the Bayern and actually took down a noobie full health Bismarck in one random battle. When he would angle away from me a would light him up with HE then when he turned broadside to me a would use my  AP. I would stay angled when he was about to fire then turn to use all my guns after he fired. My Bayern sank him taking almost all of his health. I'm sure RNG was in my favor for that battle. :Smile_amazed:

He didn't AP the hell out of your bow and stern?

Wow, what a noob.

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3 hours ago, Guardian54 said:

I hated the Queen Elizabeth, a lot, for its derpy gunnery (not enough shells to fill the circle, nothing special with the ROF, and not accurate enough to reliably AP pen through bows i.e. not accurate enough to hit the enemy reliably on each salvo). In fact I hated it so much I ran a test of firing on stationary broadside Aobas, center of waterline, and scored 40% hits with New Mexico and less than 30% with QE, specifically to justify my hatred.

The Bayern is so abysmal I'm not even bothering with such a thing because of how the accuracy is very much worse in even just cited numbers (and the number of consecutive broadsides you can whiff on a grounded cruiser) than the QE...

Same glacially slow turrets as QE.

Same bleh mobility.

Same low gun count that doesn't fill the circle.

 

At tier 6, the number of shells per shotgun spread counts for a lot in actually hitting, and NM/Norm/Fuso have QE and Bayern trashed in that regard. And QE/Bayern don't even get faster reloads to make up for it. Overmatch and all that count only AFTER the hit, so hitting is the first and foremost problem.

And if you try getting closer? Congratulations, IFHE cruisers with nom you very, very fast. And you can't catch up, nor run, and your range is pretty bad too...

If you try closing on enemy BBs, well they're generally behind the torpedo-armed cruisers (i.e. all cruisers except the Americans) and destroyers who will laugh at your uselessly inaccurate smoothbore bombards and melee you to death as you don't exactly have DD agility.

And everyone knows to aim above the belt on German BBs now.

Looks like another slog of daily bonuses to the Tier 7...

Have you tried using the Aiming Mod 1 as well as moving into closer ranges? Doing these things often help with the problems you seem to be experiencing above.

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3 hours ago, Guardian54 said:

I hated the Queen Elizabeth, a lot, for its derpy gunnery (not enough shells to fill the circle, nothing special with the ROF, and not accurate enough to reliably AP pen through bows i.e. not accurate enough to hit the enemy reliably on each salvo). In fact I hated it so much I ran a test of firing on stationary broadside Aobas, center of waterline, and scored 40% hits with New Mexico and less than 30% with QE, specifically to justify my hatred.

The Bayern is so abysmal I'm not even bothering with such a thing because of how the accuracy is very much worse in even just cited numbers (and the number of consecutive broadsides you can whiff on a grounded cruiser) than the QE...

Same glacially slow turrets as QE.

Same bleh mobility.

Same low gun count that doesn't fill the circle.

 

At tier 6, the number of shells per shotgun spread counts for a lot in actually hitting, and NM/Norm/Fuso have QE and Bayern trashed in that regard. And QE/Bayern don't even get faster reloads to make up for it. Overmatch and all that count only AFTER the hit, so hitting is the first and foremost problem.

And if you try getting closer? Congratulations, IFHE cruisers with nom you very, very fast. And you can't catch up, nor run, and your range is pretty bad too...

If you try closing on enemy BBs, well they're generally behind the torpedo-armed cruisers (i.e. all cruisers except the Americans) and destroyers who will laugh at your uselessly inaccurate smoothbore bombards and melee you to death as you don't exactly have DD agility.

And everyone knows to aim above the belt on German BBs now.

Looks like another slog of daily bonuses to the Tier 7...

Are there ANY ships in this game you like? All I ever see you post is about ships sucking? :Smile_amazed:

Bayern is one of the best, if not the best, T6 tech tree BB. 

:Smile_facepalm:

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2 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Gneisenau will be such a delight for you :cap_haloween:

IKR - just wait until he plays Gneisenau with 6 guns and worse accuracy LOL. And it isn't like it gets any better with Bismarck or FDG. :Smile_teethhappy:

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1 hour ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Gneisenau will be such a delight for you :cap_haloween:

To be fair though, Gneisenau fixed several issues of the Bayern.

The gun handling itself gets vastly improved. The turrets turn faster, the velocity is faster and the shells hit harder. That you lose a few guns in the process, and that the higher velocity will result in worse dispersion is something you‘ll probably tolerate in return.

The speed improves from a meh 25kn to 32kn, making her one of the fastest BBs in the game. Feels so good~

The AA turns from being decent to being god-like. I kept Gneisenau, slammed a 14pt AA captain onto her and use her to farm CV tears. So much fun~

And lastly her Torpedoes. Not only do they turn brawls into your favor when applied properly, but they also help when firing at longer ranges (for whatever reason you may try to snipe...)

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Bayern was a dud.  It was a ship I really wanted to enjoy as well, but ends up last out of all my T6 battleships.

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 I liked the Bayern.  Sure there is the erratic Germany Accuracy, but that is a consistent KM BB trait for all of the ships.  I enjoyed its armor and toughness.  The B hull gives some great secondaries.  I specced with AFT and BFT.  Also the AA is solid for a T6 BB.  A limited amount of guns is part of the KM line too.  I loved the Gnies even more.  I like it better than the Bismarck, but it only has 6 guns.

 

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28 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Have you tried using the Aiming Mod 1 as well as moving into closer ranges? Doing these things often help with the problems you seem to be experiencing above.

*checks*

Oh, Bayern gets that equipment.

Huh.

I should put said equipment on next time I can pick it up on sale. The difference is only 7% of dispersion and it does nothing for sigma.

26 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Are there ANY ships in this game you like? All I ever see you post is about ships sucking? :Smile_amazed:

Tier 3: My first ever Kraken was in Caledon on, predictably, a losing match. Other than that St. Louis is the once and future Jesus of the tier as far as I'm concerned.

Tier 4: V-170 and CLEMSON WOOOOOOOO!!!111!!!

Tier 5: There are enough Emerald whine threads that I feel no need to start a new one. Konigsberg was the gem of the cruisers as far as I'm concerned, and Bogue is easy mode when you get a Tier 5+ "kill planes" mission. And, predictably, I loathe Kancerkazes for being OP, despite owning an Oktobrskaya or however you spell it.

Tier 6? New Mexico was great. Fuso was okay. Have but have not played Normandie after getting it from a mission as I got Lyon too. Budyonny probably has rigged hidden Soviet fire chance with how good it is at starting fires, Nurnberg is excellent.

Tier 7? Lyon and Old Pensacola were godly. Colorado was quite adequate, Fiji is great, Shchors probably has rigged Soviet fire chance modifier. Yorck has enough whines about it that I don't feel like starting another.

Tier 8? Old New Orleans was tolerable due to its agility, but nothing special. Cleveland is godly, Richelieu is pretty good (and I can look forward to shoving the Joan figurehead's sword up someone's stern occasionally).

Tier 9? Despite all my grousing about it being a sidegrade in sustained combat, the alpha strike on Buffalo has enabled me to butcher two Seattles in close combat sequentially recently, and slaughter two DMs in separate games without significant HP loss due to a mix of fire discipline and alpha damage. It's still not great compared to the neighboring tiers and logical progression, but I wouldn't say it's total crap (that's reserved for Ibuki). Then agian my only 9s so far are Buffalo and Iowa, with Alsace soon to join them. I also find stock Iowa usable, which probably signals severe mental illness.

22 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

IKR - just wait until he plays Gneisenau with 6 guns and worse accuracy LOL. And it isn't like it gets any better with Bismarck or FDG. :Smile_teethhappy:

Having better mobility AND range = WIN or at least OVERPOWERED UNIT in most video games for good reason.

Being able to kite away from cruisers is a huge deal.

BTW if the Alldestroyer from the Space Battles is really a reskinned Grosser Kurfurst (greater cur first? Okay, I'll be a real cur for you) then I have no problems with the gun handling of the Tier X.

Edited by Guardian54
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QE is the most accurate T6 tech tree BB, tied with Warspite at the tier. Bayern has okay accuracy with a 1.8 sigma, while New Mexico brings up the rear in  that measurement with Fuso at 1.5 sigma.

Bayern is 4 knots faster than New Mexico which is a very noticeable difference.

Both QE and Bayern get 30s reloads, while New Mexico gets 34.2s reload.

Bayern has the faster turrets at 43s/180, versus 49s/180 of the New Mexico, and 56s/180 of the QE.

The guns of Bayern can be derpy, but overall it should start teaching you lessons for the rest of the line. Stay with your fellow BB's for the first part of the game, let the enemy get thinned out a bit. Don't snipe, but just keep flinging rounds at good targets.THEN do the German BB push later on.

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4 hours ago, Guardian54 said:

And if you try getting closer? Congratulations, IFHE cruisers with nom you very, very fast. And you can't catch up, nor run, and your range is pretty bad too...

If you try closing on enemy BBs, well they're generally behind the torpedo-armed cruisers (i.e. all cruisers except the Americans) and destroyers who will laugh at your uselessly inaccurate smoothbore bombards and melee you to death as you don't exactly have DD agility.

My question is, where is your team while you are closing?

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I definitely found a disturbing pattern between my two accounts.

Same ships..  same setups.. same captain skill settings...  woefully different MM matching and performance levels on accuracy and survivability.

In my main account (this one)..  Bayern was a disappointment.  The Queen Elizabeth was a thrill.  It performed much, much better than the Warspite for me.

In the tale of two Omahas..  This account did well..  My second account..  yuk..  I will only play it in Co-Op and it sucks there too.  Main account Omaha wrecks face.

...

I see this pattern repeated where there is NO WAY a certain operator can get a certain ship to work.  Either gets instantly deleted, or can't hit anything.

So..  to your conclusion..  'Bayern Sucks', I'd say it sucks for you -- but not for others.  When you bought the ship, the 'suckability' RNG hit <major suck> and you are simply stuck with it. 

Meanwhile, you will be solid purple unicum in your Colorado..   It happens...

 

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1 minute ago, Sovereigndawg said:

My question is, where is your team while you are closing?

DDs are usually dead or hiding to avoid cruiser fire.

Cruisers are generally humping rocks and/or hiding behind the BBs.

The BBs are usually clumped up behind an island somewhere.

And the enemy team is often similar, so closing on them would mean being focused. Not fun.

19 minutes ago, AVR_Project said:

Meanwhile, you will be solid purple unicum in your Colorado..   It happens...

Sounds plausible. I have 62% in 81 battles in Colorado. That's unicum by WoT standards but IIRC Warships is stricter on the higher end of players. I'm almost certainly in the top 3% or so but not quite unicum AFAIK. NM was 67% of 60 for me :P

Somehow QE was 60% of 25 games for me despite how much I hated it. Probably because it came fully upgraded with camo and I only played it for daily bonus, cutting the grind to KGV to tolerable proportions. And I hate Bayern despite 61% WR because of the small sample size of 18 games and it failing to live up to NM's standards.

People keep telling me to shoot through bows. The problem is that I simply cannot hit bows. In fact I cannot even shotgun DDs at close range, unlike say the Richelieu which does 10K+ per salvo doing that.

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I'm just sitting over here with my Bayern at nearly 70% wr and 65k average damage.....

 

I'll quote myself again, it isn't the ship, it's the captain sailing her. Just because you fail in her didn't mean it's the ship's fault, you just suck in her.

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23 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

I'm just sitting over here with my Bayern at nearly 70% wr and 65k average damage.....

I'll quote myself again, it isn't the ship, it's the captain sailing her. Just because you fail in her didn't mean it's the ship's fault, you just suck in her.

Keep on asserting your superiority and wanking your e-peen.

The great majority who find the cheese-armoured slow shotgun annoying know better, and that's that.

 

...Though I was astonished to learn my own WR in the thing and in QE were both about 60%.

Edited by Guardian54
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QE I didn't have a problem, Warspite was okay, Mutsu I can wreck things in.  Bayern, meh, for all the hype was a big letdown.  And I really, really wanted to like it.

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Just managed to fail to citadel a nice and broadside Atlanta from 2 kilometers because in this game shells don't slow down after passing through armour.

Bayern: Can't hit a damn thing from range except for RNG jokes. Can't citadel a damned thing from up close (turtleback or overpen defeats it).

I'm not going to FXP this turd, just going to daily my way to Scharnhorst where keeping enemy at range is actually possible with its speed.

EDIT: Predictably, after two horror shows, I get a Kraken... with only 68K damage >_>

Edited by Guardian54
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On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 7:57 AM, Guardian54 said:

I should put said equipment on next time I can pick it up on sale. The difference is only 7% of dispersion and it does nothing for sigma.

Having better mobility AND range = WIN or at least OVERPOWERED UNIT in most video games for good reason.

Being able to kite away from cruisers is a huge deal.

The -7% dispersion is a big deal because it's percentage based and thus benefits BB dispersion more noticeably than cruisers. 
Good luck playing Scharnhorst without it. 
Also, sadly not here. Leopard A1A1 in War Thunder would like a word with you. Mobility and Range does nothing if you can't put out damage, and using Gneisenau's speed for the sake of keeping yourself safe is a misnomer. When I was grinding the line, the one thing that kept Gneisenau sane was using her speed to give enemy ships no chance to escape. Hard to miss when ships are 6-8km away. You can brawl two BB at once and thanks to torpedoes, win it handily. You can kite some ships sure, but don't use it as standard playstyle. 
That's just like using the Fusou as a sniper, a heavy misplay. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. 
My greatest moment in Gneisenau was going full speed into 3 battleships and a cruiser completely solo, and winning the fight. That single engagement resulted in a win because they lost so many ships on a side that my team cleaned up. Granted, I actually burned down 30s after I knocked them out, but still. Torpedoes. Use them. You lose a lot of utility in other statistics because you possess those things on your side. 
Also, Gneisenau's final hull has like a dozen or so Hermelin turrets lining the side, and those things act as both secondaries and AA. Gneisenau can actually be an AA beast because those 128mm have long range and high AA damage, so MAA + range upgrades make it impressive. 

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1 hour ago, Seniorious said:

The -7% dispersion is a big deal because it's percentage based and thus benefits BB dispersion more noticeably than cruisers. 
Good luck playing Scharnhorst without it. 

I don't use it and my accuracy is just fine. It's really a player by player thing, the accuracy is nice but better secondaries or getting your turrets to turn faster for a slightly slower reload can often be more important

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12 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

I don't use it and my accuracy is just fine. It's really a player by player thing, the accuracy is nice but better secondaries or getting your turrets to turn faster for a slightly slower reload can often be more important

Eh no. Secondaries under Tier 8 and above Tier 8 are largely minor. They occasionally finish off stuff but you should never, ever rely on them. 
All German BB have fast turret traverse already. 
Either you pick -7% dispersion or you go AA-Range mod. Only Bis/Tirp can make decent use of Secondary mod. Of course, it's player-by-player as you say.
But competitively, the turret traverse mod is almost never worth it.  If Bismarck/Gneise turrets or any BB for that matter ever feel too slow bar stuff like Warspite/Yamato, it's because you got yourself in a terrible position. Better secondaries infact are never more important than Main Battery or AA. Ever. Your main battery is your main damage dealer, and you should make the most of it. Secondaries are a side-bonus. 
I make do without the -7% on Bismarck for secondaries because they're worth using on that ship, and I typically fight sub 15km so the accuracy is rarely too troll. But for Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Bayern, even FDG, the dispersion mod helps a lot. Those ships don't have the secondary power/range or the right targets to use them on, so making the main battery more reliable is the best choice. Especially with Gneisenau, who with 6 guns and bad dispersion would really benefit heavily.

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Here's where I have to disagree with both of your complaints. I've played both of those ships and from the sounds of it you need to spend more time understanding the play style of different BBs and less time complaining.

1) Queen Elizabeth.  I too hated her at first because I was used to throwing HE with Orion and Iron Duke. QE is a completely different ship. As soon as I changed my play style and played it more like a German BB using mostly AP everything changed drastically. I was citing ships left right and center and keeping tight angles to stay alive. It turned out to be a very good ship.

2) Bayern - This ship can be a beast if you keep a narrow angle or shoot from the bow. I never had an issue landing hits. I think the only thing that has changed is the introduction of RN BBs who can spam HE and set Bayern on fire continuously but that could be said for any BB.  For this reason you have to be careful when selecting captain skills and upgrades. You want to make sure your Bayern has a survivability build. Skills to reduce fires or put them out quickly. Damage control. Same with consumables. Upgrade the damage control. Do the same with flags. Also go for gun accuracy equipment to reduce dispersion. 
German BBs are brawlers so if you are camping behind some islands in the back you are playing it wrong.

To make my point, the Gneisenau has less guns and worse dispersion and yet it's one of my best performing t7 BBs. I can cit Colorado on a regular bases with it.  Take the time to learn the ship and how to play it. 

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1 hour ago, Seniorious said:

Eh no. Secondaries under Tier 8 and above Tier 8 are largely minor. They occasionally finish off stuff but you should never, ever rely on them. 
All German BB have fast turret traverse already. 
Either you pick -7% dispersion or you go AA-Range mod. Only Bis/Tirp can make decent use of Secondary mod. Of course, it's player-by-player as you say.
But competitively, the turret traverse mod is almost never worth it.  If Bismarck/Gneise turrets or any BB for that matter ever feel too slow bar stuff like Warspite/Yamato, it's because you got yourself in a terrible position. Better secondaries infact are never more important than Main Battery or AA. Ever. Your main battery is your main damage dealer, and you should make the most of it. Secondaries are a side-bonus. 
I make do without the -7% on Bismarck for secondaries because they're worth using on that ship, and I typically fight sub 15km so the accuracy is rarely too troll. But for Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Bayern, even FDG, the dispersion mod helps a lot. Those ships don't have the secondary power/range or the right targets to use them on, so making the main battery more reliable is the best choice. Especially with Gneisenau, who with 6 guns and bad dispersion would really benefit heavily.

Got to disagree with you, at T7 the Manual Secondary skill comes into effect. My last game in my Scharnhorst netted me 2 Close Quarter kills, one was a full health DD that got stuck and a cruiser, I did over 20k damage with them and another 10k in damage in fire caused by then since I was firing all AP

 

Now the Bayern it's more of a firework show when it comes to secondaries, personally I use AA mod because all my T6 ships still see CVs at least half the time

 

Now for the QE I ran the turret mod with the Jack Dunkirk captain with EM just make the turrets bearable, I can't stand slow turrets so this is more of a personal choice and it worked well for me

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