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C6tom

Kurfurst Secondary Build Question

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I'm going to have 4 points left to spend on my Kurfurst captain. Full Secondary Build with modules. I have manual secondaries and AFT already.

My question is should I get concealment expert to make it easier for me to sneak up and use my secondaries or should I go for IFHE and get better penetration with them. Now i'm pretty sure the secondaries get the special german HE pen so i'm not sure if its worth it hence this forum post.

Thanks for any and all help. 

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Well you won't be sneaking up on anything with a conceal GK but I'd still go with it.  Personally I run the main batt disp mod and reload mod so I think my secondaries are 10 something, and I can still hide from the adjacent galaxy if I need to.

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1 hour ago, C6tom said:

My question is should I get concealment expert to make it easier for me to sneak up and use my secondaries

Actually CE for me is for when Zaos and Moskvas start flaming me. Ceasefire and get the he*l out of Dodge.

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WIth the power creep of the Massachusetts lethal secondaries, I think running a full secondaries build on the Kurfurst is an obsolete idea. Right now I don;t recommend it for the Kurfurst. She is still a good brawling BB, her secondaries are no longer a terror in the battle field.

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13 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

WIth the power creep of the Massachusetts lethal secondaries, I think running a full secondaries build on the Kurfurst is an obsolete idea. Right now I don;t recommend it for the Kurfurst. She is still a good brawling BB, her secondaries are no longer a terror in the battle field.

I'm not sure I follow that logic.  Massachusetts is a lethal secondary ship, but the Kurfurst, which has a superior secondary battery, is not?

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2 minutes ago, Ranari said:

I'm not sure I follow that logic.  Massachusetts is a lethal secondary ship, but the Kurfurst, which has a superior secondary battery, is not?

Because your logic is flawed in thinking the Kurfurst as of right now "has a superior secondary battery". I can;t help you change your Ideas or "logic" of your ways in thinking the Kurfurst "has superior Secondary Battery". Its up to you to accept  or not. I think in my original post it was clear. IMO the secondary battery build on the Kurfurst is not the best way to go for the ship.

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6 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

Because your logic is flawed in thinking the Kurfurst as of right now "has a superior secondary battery". I can;t help you change your Ideas or "logic" of your ways in thinking the Kurfurst "has superior Secondary Battery". Its up to you to accept  or not. I think in my original post it was clear. IMO the secondary battery build on the Kurfurst is not the best way to go for the ship.

Hey man, I wasn't attacking you.  I just didn't understand, and I still don't, so don't assume that just because you understand your own ideas that others do too. 

So help me out, because I'm still confused.  The Massachusetts is a viable secondary ship.  No disagreements there.  The secondaries on the Kurfurst are also extremely good, but running a secondary build on a Kurfurst is an "obsolete idea"?  Meaning, not viable?  That's what I'm struggling to understand, because there are plenty of players and videos on YouTube with the Kurfurst melting faces with their secondaries. 

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3 hours ago, Ranari said:

The secondaries on the Kurfurst are also extremely good, but running a secondary build on a Kurfurst is an "obsolete idea"?  Meaning, not viable?  That's what I'm struggling to understand, because there are plenty of players and videos on YouTube with the Kurfurst melting faces with their secondaries. 

Then the question is, how can I express IMO, the idea that the secondaries build is not a good idea Kurfurts ? When there is a BB out there that has better secondaries then the kurfurts? Which is the MASSACHUSETTS. In the end its only my opinion based on me fighting against her in battle and compared to the Kurfurst I would not bother with a secondary build. Yes you can do it, its an option, is it a good build now for the kurfurts compared to other secondary battery build BBs?, NAAAA. I would say, IMO, its the least preferred at least not on the top of my list for it, now. 

Just remember, majority of Youtube videos document the past, only youtube videos that show the WIP ships are documenting a future ship proposal to be in game and even those are put in the past bin once the ship is out.

Hopefully This post makes it clear (I thought I was clear in the other post). I tried to be a little less direct this time. Hopefully it helps.

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On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:50 PM, Ranari said:

So help me out, because I'm still confused.  The Massachusetts is a viable secondary ship.  No disagreements there.  The secondaries on the Kurfurst are also extremely good, but running a secondary build on a Kurfurst is an "obsolete idea"?  Meaning, not viable?  That's what I'm struggling to understand, because there are plenty of players and videos on YouTube with the Kurfurst melting faces with their secondaries. 

Secondaries become a useless gimmick at Tier X due to the increased thickness of extremity armor, meaning many cruisers and especially battleships will just completely resist the damage from them. They might start a rare fire, but that's it. Even IFHE won't help you much. Tier 8 is where the fun both starts and stops for secondaries. Lower tiers don't have the range to make them viable, and any higher and the average armor thickness reduces them to nill. 
Even at Tier 8, Massachusetts outstrips the Bismarck and Richeliu in secondary battery utility because of a few reasons. 
First off, Bismarck's secondary battery is half comprised of near useless 105mm guns. These do very little damage and have awful dispersion and only really are worth for starting fires. Fast reload, but they miss a lot. The 150mm guns have a long reload, but actually do damage and have decent accuracy. These start most of your fires and damage, but you only have at most 6 barrels per side iirc. Might even be just four. 
Massachusetts however has a homogenous secondary battery of 10x2 127mm guns, basically gearing/atlanta turrets. These all fire at a respectable 4s, you have 5 turrets per side and thus 10 barrels per side, and goes well with IFHE. ON TOP OF THIS: The Massachusetts has a soft buff of -40% dispersion to secondaries from the get go. That then stacks with Secondary mod which is -20% dispersion and +20% range, and Manual secondaries which is another -60% iirc, while having the same range as Bismarck. 
This means Massachusetts gets a more effective battery because it's not only landing more shells, but those shells are of larger caliber and it's more constant. 
Richelieu has 5 triple turret 152mm guns, with a 12 second reload. A max of 9 shells per side, but awful reload and still not good dispersion. The key to a good secondary battery is reload rate and hit rate, as it keeps the Lolibotes at bay. 
Basically, Massachusetts is powercreep. It'd be fine if it had the same dispersion as the rest, but no. It actually has an effective Atlanta on each side of the ship. 

Speaking from experience, the only time I get good damage numbers off of Bismarck's secondary battery, and I regularly play and use full secondary build Bismarck, is when I get downtiered. Tier 8 and under, it works as an actually damage dealer against cruisers and destroyers, to a smaller degree on battleships. In higher tiers, the secondaries are useful in a different way. Not only does the reputation precede them, but they're psychological. Seriously. The game transmits the constant sound and show of all these guns raining down on you and hear all the little clunks and dinks and you slowly see your HP chipping away. Even on battleships, this works. People panic. They've been trained to understand that getting hit so many times means you're going to die if you just sit there, so people move. They give broadside, they make bad decisions because by god, YOU NEED TO DIE. 
If you park at the edge of a cap with a little cover so your secondaries can fire but you're still safe, as soon as a DD gets spotted and he hears and sees you sitting there and the first few shots take off some chunks, he instantly goes NOPE. 

But at Tier X, you don't need the GK's secondaries to do that. His reputation precedes him. The turtleback looms over the rifles of enemy ships and says 'F*** you'. The 105k HP pool says 'You're not even capable of killing me any time soon'. The sheer size and intimidation of a German BB that now actually has a dozen 16" rifles on top his armor and weight means you can brawl more effectively by focusing on survival builds instead of secondaries. As I said, secondaries do piddly at Tier X anyway. The only thing they can harm is Lolibotes, and those things can torp you from well beyond the secondary range. Your secondary accuracy isn't any better than Bismarck or FDG either.

As for YouTube, these are scenes where people went full meme build. That means AFT +MSFC + IFHE (at least 18pt captain) and then they have the luck or setup someone to sit in front of them for 5 minutes straight letting secondaries rain down. That just doesn't happen in game enough. 90% of the time, when my Bismarck gets in secondary range, people instant turn about. As soon as they realize my steel trojan is secondary build they try to escape. Only people who incapable of rapidly leaving their position for a variety of reasons get caught and let me rain down. Even then, the damage is piddly. The most pure secondary damage I ever got in a game was 20k. IFHE is a waste when CE or MAA or Fire Prevention is far more useful for a T4 perk. 

Good luck getting in range to even use those secondaries too on GK, Tier X ranges are very high on average. Montana and Yamato are much more comfortable staying 15km+ away from all the ships and just dropping lead, while Republique just zips around sniping people. 

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3 hours ago, Seniorious said:

Secondaries become a useless gimmick at Tier X due to the increased thickness of extremity armor, meaning many cruisers and especially battleships will just completely resist the damage from them. They might start a rare fire, but that's it. Even IFHE won't help you much. Tier 8 is where the fun both starts and stops for secondaries. Lower tiers don't have the range to make them viable, and any higher and the average armor thickness reduces them to nill. 
Even at Tier 8, Massachusetts outstrips the Bismarck and Richeliu in secondary battery utility because of a few reasons. 
First off, Bismarck's secondary battery is half comprised of near useless 105mm guns. These do very little damage and have awful dispersion and only really are worth for starting fires. Fast reload, but they miss a lot. The 150mm guns have a long reload, but actually do damage and have decent accuracy. These start most of your fires and damage, but you only have at most 6 barrels per side iirc. Might even be just four. 
Massachusetts however has a homogenous secondary battery of 10x2 127mm guns, basically gearing/atlanta turrets. These all fire at a respectable 4s, you have 5 turrets per side and thus 10 barrels per side, and goes well with IFHE. ON TOP OF THIS: The Massachusetts has a soft buff of -40% dispersion to secondaries from the get go. That then stacks with Secondary mod which is -20% dispersion and +20% range, and Manual secondaries which is another -60% iirc, while having the same range as Bismarck. 
This means Massachusetts gets a more effective battery because it's not only landing more shells, but those shells are of larger caliber and it's more constant. 
Richelieu has 5 triple turret 152mm guns, with a 12 second reload. A max of 9 shells per side, but awful reload and still not good dispersion. The key to a good secondary battery is reload rate and hit rate, as it keeps the Lolibotes at bay. 
Basically, Massachusetts is powercreep. It'd be fine if it had the same dispersion as the rest, but no. It actually has an effective Atlanta on each side of the ship. 

Speaking from experience, the only time I get good damage numbers off of Bismarck's secondary battery, and I regularly play and use full secondary build Bismarck, is when I get downtiered. Tier 8 and under, it works as an actually damage dealer against cruisers and destroyers, to a smaller degree on battleships. In higher tiers, the secondaries are useful in a different way. Not only does the reputation precede them, but they're psychological. Seriously. The game transmits the constant sound and show of all these guns raining down on you and hear all the little clunks and dinks and you slowly see your HP chipping away. Even on battleships, this works. People panic. They've been trained to understand that getting hit so many times means you're going to die if you just sit there, so people move. They give broadside, they make bad decisions because by god, YOU NEED TO DIE. 
If you park at the edge of a cap with a little cover so your secondaries can fire but you're still safe, as soon as a DD gets spotted and he hears and sees you sitting there and the first few shots take off some chunks, he instantly goes NOPE. 

But at Tier X, you don't need the GK's secondaries to do that. His reputation precedes him. The turtleback looms over the rifles of enemy ships and says 'F*** you'. The 105k HP pool says 'You're not even capable of killing me any time soon'. The sheer size and intimidation of a German BB that now actually has a dozen 16" rifles on top his armor and weight means you can brawl more effectively by focusing on survival builds instead of secondaries. As I said, secondaries do piddly at Tier X anyway. The only thing they can harm is Lolibotes, and those things can torp you from well beyond the secondary range. Your secondary accuracy isn't any better than Bismarck or FDG either.

As for YouTube, these are scenes where people went full meme build. That means AFT +MSFC + IFHE (at least 18pt captain) and then they have the luck or setup someone to sit in front of them for 5 minutes straight letting secondaries rain down. That just doesn't happen in game enough. 90% of the time, when my Bismarck gets in secondary range, people instant turn about. As soon as they realize my steel trojan is secondary build they try to escape. Only people who incapable of rapidly leaving their position for a variety of reasons get caught and let me rain down. Even then, the damage is piddly. The most pure secondary damage I ever got in a game was 20k. IFHE is a waste when CE or MAA or Fire Prevention is far more useful for a T4 perk. 

Good luck getting in range to even use those secondaries too on GK, Tier X ranges are very high on average. Montana and Yamato are much more comfortable staying 15km+ away from all the ships and just dropping lead, while Republique just zips around sniping people. 

Thank you for the explanation.  So basically at T8, it's because the secondaries actually do damage and exist in a tier where things actually make sense.  For the Massachusetts, it's the vastly improved dispersion.  For the Bismarck, it's a psychological factor.  Just a note though, German HE mechanics put the 105mm's as having superior armor penetration to the American 127mm, but I get it, that doesn't mean much if they don't hit.

Then at T10, which I can attest to in my Montana, the combat ranges are just too far for it to make any sense.  Firepower at T10 is much greater than it is at T8.  Combat ranges are longer.  Ships have more armor and a lot more hp.  And when you do get into secondary range, you'll probably be torpedoed to death. 

Thanks again for the explanation.  I appreciate you taking the time to write that out.

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2 hours ago, Ranari said:

Thanks again for the explanation.  I appreciate you taking the time to write that out.

Pretty much on it there. One could extrapolate that Bismarck is a bit more effective against BBs when using IFHE builds because of the extra penetration and because the sheer ship size and incapability of maneuvering hard means secondaries get to hit more, but it's such a massive trade off really. 
If you want to buy a ship that gives you secondary power, between Tirpitz (same secondaries as Bis) and Massachusetts; Mass is the outright winner. She can put her secondaries down more effectively on DDs and CL/CA, and her main battery is in a more effective layout, she has 9 guns vs 8, she has 16" guns instead of 15", she has better AA, American Damcon, 710m turning circle vs 850m on Bismarck, and 15.7s rudder vs 16s on Bis.
Biggest downfall is no turtleback armor, and the Massachusetts has a 27.5kt top speed, vs Bismarcks fleetflooted 31kts. 
If the Bismarck-class had more accurate secondaries then it'd become quite ridiculous though, as those 105mm guns really would shred. At 3.3s reload on the 105s while the 150s are 7.5s, they'd really rack up hits and damage. 

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Kurfurst is probably best served with a survivability build due to the ungodly level of HE spam at high tiers.  Seriously WG, nerf fire already.  That said, I typically don't practice what I preach, so I did an IFHE secondary build for my Kurfurst and I doubt I'll ever change that.  Aeroon did a video demonstrating that the 128mm secondaries on GK and Gneisenau follow the 1/4 penetration rule (even before the buff), and when equipped with IFHE, will pass the threshold necessary to penetrate 32mm armor.  That's the route I went.  Captain build below:

5b46a0795a05c_CaptainSkills.thumb.PNG.7b07f67ca017fac2cfaaff603f571c6a.PNG

 

Note that I (unfortunately) have to bypass Adrenaline Rush and concealment, but really, the Kurfurst is seen from Saturn, so concealment doesn't matter much when you play her as a brawler.  I do occasionally long for AR though.  I also use double spotter plane to help spot torpedoes when my hydro is on cooldown.  Hopefully with the new Legendary Module, I can respec out of Expert Marksman and into Adrenaline Rush.  Modules below:

modules.PNG.e17fd3ebf18ab66f3c3acd8e65c0804b.PNG

 

Because I don't take AR, I equip the 406s for quicker reload.  Supposedly, the 406s have better pen values at closer range anyway, but I'm going off of hearsay.  It's a personal choice, of course, but the 406s just make more sense to me since the 420s still can't overmatch 32mm bow armor, and the minor increase in alpha strike with the 420s don't offset the slower reload enough to justify running them.  As for gameplay, don't expect to be an in-your-face brawler every match - that's a good way to eat a faceful of torps.  I use my secondary build as more defensive than anything until late match.  The IFHE helps inflict more damage to armored enemies that get too close, and that seems to make them back off for a spell.  That kind of playstyle will fit most of your matches - find a spot, park it, pick your shots, and use your secondaries to swat unwanted flies.  Once it's safe to start brawling though, hold onto your butt, because this secondary build will pay dividends.  Bow tanking Yamato?  No prob, your secondaries will easily snatch 20k of her health while you maneuver to kiss that tender little cheek of hers.  Low health Montana wants to ram you and your can't get your guns around fast enough to deal the coup de grace?  No problem, your secondaries got you covered as they punch through ole' Monty's bow like it wasn't even there.  Here are a few screenshots of my secondaries pulling more than their fair share of weight:

5b46a378cba0c_damage1.PNG.ea7dc85ac29f0bb8678357e06e463343.PNG    --->  73,000 damage from secondaries, thank you very much!

5b46a37f71037_damage2.PNG.78287bd3f0776146d48eff8ef55f7b24.PNG   --->  65,000 damage from secondaries, thank you very much!

 

TL;DR:  Secondary build with the GK is optimal when using IFHE, but is situational at best.  Fun, yes, but not useful in the majority of matches.

Edited by motormouth85
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On 7/11/2018 at 10:02 AM, Seniorious said:

Secondaries become a useless gimmick at Tier X due to the increased thickness of extremity armor, meaning many cruisers and especially battleships will just completely resist the damage from them. They might start a rare fire, but that's it. Even IFHE won't help you much. Tier 8 is where the fun both starts and stops for secondaries. Lower tiers don't have the range to make them viable, and any higher and the average armor thickness reduces them to nill. 
Even at Tier 8, Massachusetts outstrips the Bismarck and Richeliu in secondary battery utility because of a few reasons. 
First off, Bismarck's secondary battery is half comprised of near useless 105mm guns. These do very little damage and have awful dispersion and only really are worth for starting fires. Fast reload, but they miss a lot. The 150mm guns have a long reload, but actually do damage and have decent accuracy. These start most of your fires and damage, but you only have at most 6 barrels per side iirc. Might even be just four. 
Massachusetts however has a homogenous secondary battery of 10x2 127mm guns, basically gearing/atlanta turrets. These all fire at a respectable 4s, you have 5 turrets per side and thus 10 barrels per side, and goes well with IFHE. ON TOP OF THIS: The Massachusetts has a soft buff of -40% dispersion to secondaries from the get go. That then stacks with Secondary mod which is -20% dispersion and +20% range, and Manual secondaries which is another -60% iirc, while having the same range as Bismarck. 
This means Massachusetts gets a more effective battery because it's not only landing more shells, but those shells are of larger caliber and it's more constant. 
Richelieu has 5 triple turret 152mm guns, with a 12 second reload. A max of 9 shells per side, but awful reload and still not good dispersion. The key to a good secondary battery is reload rate and hit rate, as it keeps the Lolibotes at bay. 
Basically, Massachusetts is powercreep. It'd be fine if it had the same dispersion as the rest, but no. It actually has an effective Atlanta on each side of the ship. 

Speaking from experience, the only time I get good damage numbers off of Bismarck's secondary battery, and I regularly play and use full secondary build Bismarck, is when I get downtiered. Tier 8 and under, it works as an actually damage dealer against cruisers and destroyers, to a smaller degree on battleships. In higher tiers, the secondaries are useful in a different way. Not only does the reputation precede them, but they're psychological. Seriously. The game transmits the constant sound and show of all these guns raining down on you and hear all the little clunks and dinks and you slowly see your HP chipping away. Even on battleships, this works. People panic. They've been trained to understand that getting hit so many times means you're going to die if you just sit there, so people move. They give broadside, they make bad decisions because by god, YOU NEED TO DIE. 
If you park at the edge of a cap with a little cover so your secondaries can fire but you're still safe, as soon as a DD gets spotted and he hears and sees you sitting there and the first few shots take off some chunks, he instantly goes NOPE. 

But at Tier X, you don't need the GK's secondaries to do that. His reputation precedes him. The turtleback looms over the rifles of enemy ships and says 'F*** you'. The 105k HP pool says 'You're not even capable of killing me any time soon'. The sheer size and intimidation of a German BB that now actually has a dozen 16" rifles on top his armor and weight means you can brawl more effectively by focusing on survival builds instead of secondaries. As I said, secondaries do piddly at Tier X anyway. The only thing they can harm is Lolibotes, and those things can torp you from well beyond the secondary range. Your secondary accuracy isn't any better than Bismarck or FDG either.

As for YouTube, these are scenes where people went full meme build. That means AFT +MSFC + IFHE (at least 18pt captain) and then they have the luck or setup someone to sit in front of them for 5 minutes straight letting secondaries rain down. That just doesn't happen in game enough. 90% of the time, when my Bismarck gets in secondary range, people instant turn about. As soon as they realize my steel trojan is secondary build they try to escape. Only people who incapable of rapidly leaving their position for a variety of reasons get caught and let me rain down. Even then, the damage is piddly. The most pure secondary damage I ever got in a game was 20k. IFHE is a waste when CE or MAA or Fire Prevention is far more useful for a T4 perk. 

Good luck getting in range to even use those secondaries too on GK, Tier X ranges are very high on average. Montana and Yamato are much more comfortable staying 15km+ away from all the ships and just dropping lead, while Republique just zips around sniping people. 

I agree with everything you said here except for the GK. The GK with IFHE is a monster and i use it as a primary secondary monster every chance i get with usually great success provided the team i'm on is good. i usually have over 150 secondary hits on a good game doing far more damage then my main guns. I removed the manual firing on the GK for clan battles but am thinking i should return to it. the GK has 10 X 2 128's the same as the Mass set up except the Mass is 127's (i have both ships) the mass is also without manual secondaries and is far and above impressive. but i think the GK with Manual may fire less but do more damage. see the pics below to understand what i'm saying. i did more damage with my GK secondaries with less hits and i was primarily using them to fend off 3 ships and i've seen people do far better as you can see. my question is do you think Manual helps  ? 

2018-07-04 (2).png

2018-02-13 (5).png

2018-08-13_edited.jpg

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I've been tilting back and forth between a full secondary build and a full tank build on my GK for a while now. On the one hand, I really want to play a Secondary build because it's a lot of fun, but on the other, with the sheer magnitude of HE spam in the game at the moment [due to the presence of Worcester and Harugumo and other very powerful HE ships] makes a full fire prevention build mandatory.

 

It's frustrating, because the GK's main guns lack the consistency to be reliable in the way the Monty and Yamato are, and that is because she was designed as a close-medium range brawler. But she can't be what she was designed for with the HE problem we have at the moment. It's a good example of how development of new trees with new gimmicks can force older ones to build in ways that are contrary to their strengths. I do wish that WG would either improve the dispersion on the GK's main battery or otherwise find a way to make her more reliable with the recent metas.

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16 hours ago, Admiral_TeaRex said:

I've been tilting back and forth between a full secondary build and a full tank build on my GK for a while now. On the one hand, I really want to play a Secondary build because it's a lot of fun, but on the other, with the sheer magnitude of HE spam in the game at the moment [due to the presence of Worcester and Harugumo and other very powerful HE ships] makes a full fire prevention build mandatory.

 

It's frustrating, because the GK's main guns lack the consistency to be reliable in the way the Monty and Yamato are, and that is because she was designed as a close-medium range brawler. But she can't be what she was designed for with the HE problem we have at the moment. It's a good example of how development of new trees with new gimmicks can force older ones to build in ways that are contrary to their strengths. I do wish that WG would either improve the dispersion on the GK's main battery or otherwise find a way to make her more reliable with the recent metas.

Nerf the amount of fire slots from 4(FP, 3) to to 3(FP, 2), and REMOVE IFHE. The real problem isn't so much fires, it's CONSTANT fires no matter what you do + HE ONLY PENNING, NEVER SHATTERING AND ALWAYS DOING DAMAGE, THANKS TO IFHE.

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Since my last post I've settled on the full tank build, primarily due to the release of the Harugumo. Last night I was on the receiving end of a Harugumo, a Worcester and a Conqueror on the same team. I lasted a few minutes at best. It didn't matter how hard I tried, I simply could not stop haemorrhaging HP. It was a profoundly unpleasant experience, and when combined with the fact that all three of those ALSO hard counter my only other current T10, the Hindenburg, I am finding myself less and less motivated to play at T10. Thankfully we now have T5 Ranked, which, while painful, is slightly less so than trying to deal with this disasterous mistake that Wargaming has made. They have made AP completely irrelevant by making HE a brain-dead ammo type. It should be a tool, just like AP. Not an Easy-mode.

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7 hours ago, Admiral_TeaRex said:

Since my last post I've settled on the full tank build, primarily due to the release of the Harugumo. Last night I was on the receiving end of a Harugumo, a Worcester and a Conqueror on the same team. I lasted a few minutes at best. It didn't matter how hard I tried, I simply could not stop haemorrhaging HP. It was a profoundly unpleasant experience, and when combined with the fact that all three of those ALSO hard counter my only other current T10, the Hindenburg, I am finding myself less and less motivated to play at T10. Thankfully we now have T5 Ranked, which, while painful, is slightly less so than trying to deal with this disasterous mistake that Wargaming has made. They have made AP completely irrelevant by making HE a brain-dead ammo type. It should be a tool, just like AP. Not an Easy-mode.

I say this to help, not to hurt:

By reading this, it doesn't sound like you may be brawling the right way at T10.  (*eep* /tip toes *eep*)  Yes, HE spam can be insane, but you just have to be patient, play the long game, and wait for the opportunity to capitalize on someone who has over-extended into your secondary range.  Brawling builds at T10 is better as heavy support and/or defensive than more offensive and/or vanguard roles.  Some games I find little opportunity to use my secondaries.  Some games they're blazing from sunrise to sunset.  I started doing a lot more damage in games when I realized that secondaries are best used as anti-battleship and area-of-denial tools and adjusted my playstyle accordingly.

Secondly, I think what you're really looking for in a warship is more found in the Montana than the Kurfurst.  If you're wanting maximum survivability with superb main battery performance, that's more Montana's shtick than the Kurfurst's.  OR, if you really want to brawl, but would rather have better main battery performance and allow your secondaries to be more of a situation thing, then consider the Republique. 

To be fair though, no battleship lasts long against concentrated fire from multiple HE sources. 

Note, I play both my Montana and Kurfurst in full secondary builds.  :D

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No build will help you get out of bad play that puts your ship in a heavy focus fire position.  If you found yourself in a spot to get 3, 4+ ships focus firing you, you screwed up.  This is often by being too aggressive at the wrong time.

 

Survival Build will not save you.

 

But smarter play will prevent that.  Half the point of PVP is getting positions to put people in a disadvantage and focusing them down.  The other half is figuring out those kill zone traps and not being that guy springing the trap.

 

High Tier matches has no shortage of hard hitting guns with excellent range as well as precision.  The Battleships, Cruisers, and even some Destroyers punish heavily anyone making a mistake in short order.  Throw a few players focusing someone down, you are easily dead in a minute or less.  This isn't like low and mid tiers, where you can bumble into a kill zone, turn around, escape, and survive because the accuracy, lethality, range of the guns in those tiers are pathetic.  In High Tier, ranged prowess, firepower, accuracy is abundant.  You do that same sh*t in a Tier VIII-X match, you're dead.  BB, DD, Cruiser, doesn't matter.  You're dead.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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